Surprised this hasn't come up

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

I have a question that I’m rather surprised i haven’t found an answer to here…first time for everything I guess.

I was talking with a friend yesterday about the election (Yeah - that again) My position is - God puts our leaders in power. Whether we like them or don’t like them - they are there for God’s purposes and plan. I used the example - for instance - of Pharaoh and the Children of Israel/Moses as one example of God using a leader, and His statements “I raised you up for this very purpose” … “God hardened Pharaohs heart” to illustrate my position.

I was wondering what others thought about this…and if you had anything to ‘back it up’ with? I haven’t been able to find anything for Church teaching on this subject either, surprisingly maybe I’m looking in the wrong places. This area is not my forte’ and I’m kinda winging it ‘sola scriptura’ so-to-speak

Any help would be appreciated

Pax

John

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Wasn’t able to edit my previous post - it WOULD figure that I would find something immediately after posting…wouldn’t it? I found this From the CCC that helps somewhat.

It states (In Part) :

1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17

1901 If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of the political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens."20

How to reconcile those two statements?

Pax

John

 

[Biggie]

You are approaching what would have been called the Divine Right of Kings, whereby it was believed God placed Kings over their realms. But we are a Republic, not a Monarchy. I do agree to this extent - I think we get the President we deserve. If we are a reverent and moral people, that is reflected in our choice. If we are irreverent and immoral, that too is reflected. I aslo believe that God can work with any set of circumstances, no matter how unfortunate.

We have a moral obligation to submit to legitimate authority. We are not, however required to obey an immoral or unlawful order, and are prohibited from submitting to it. If the law itself loses its moral authority, we are not required to obey it and may be required to disobey it.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

You are approaching what would have been called the Divine Right of Kings, whereby it was believed God placed Kings over their realms…

Yes - which I think is covered under: 1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17

As well as a few other declarations in the CCC - which I won’t list here, see the link if you like - for the complete list. But they go on to state that said ruler is answerable to God -and required by God to make just rulings. Not that God makes a puppet out of them…but rather - they will answer for their actions, as there are expectations involved.

But we are a Republic, not a Monarchy. I do agree to this extent - I think we get the President we deserve. If we are a reverent and moral people, that is reflected in our choice. If we are irreverent and immoral, that too is reflected…

Which is covered by my other post as well - 1901 If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of the political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens."20

I aslo believe that God can work with any set of circumstances, no matter how unfortunate…

Amen!!

We have a moral obligation to submit to legitimate authority. We are not, however required to obey an immoral or unlawful order, and are prohibited from submitting to it. If the law itself loses its moral authority, we are not required to obey it and may be required to disobey it.

That is covered in the link also. As well as in Scripture. Common sense comes in there as well i think.

My question is - how to reconcile both statements? Are you saying authority is NOT put in place by God? But rather by us alone? That God will use whoever we put in place to fulfill His will?

This is an interesting topic to me - I’d like it if you could expand on your answer

Pax

John

 

[tjm190]

Please, leave the divine right of kings where it belongs- in the past.

 

[St_Francis]

Please, leave the divine right of kings where it belongs- in the past.

The divine right of kings idea was a protestant notion to get rulers out from under the “thumb” of the Pope. It is *not *a Catholic idea–what the Church taught was that the government was in charge of the temporal order and the Church of the spiritual order, and the monarch/government was under the Church wrt morality, etc.

 

[Biggie]

My question is - how to reconcile both statements? Are you saying authority is NOT put in place by God? But rather by us alone? That God will use whoever we put in place to fulfill His will?

This is an interesting topic to me - I’d like it if you could expand on your answer

Pax

John

We were kind of posting over each other and as you amended, I became irrelevant.

City of God / City of Man: Perfection rests in the city of God. The city of man is inherently fallen. Government is an evil, in as much as no man has a natural authority over another, however in a fallen world, the evil of government is exceeded by the evil of anarchy under which none can survive and the weak suffer exceedingly. It is necessary, therefore to chose the lesser of evils in the fallen world, therefore God has ordained governments should rise up to rule men.

Authority derives from God: this is moral authority. In a fallen world we must also make a choice for the lesser of evils as to which government. The measure of a government is the quality of its imitation of the morality of the city of God, expressed as Natural Law. Therefore as a government is just, so then its authority must be obeyed as a derivative of God’s authority, and disobedience incurs punishment here and hereafter.

Persons may decide within their realm on alternate forms of government. There is no such thing as an ordained form of government, per se, and in the contexts of differing peoples, different forms of government may be instituted. The measure of the government continues to be its appeal to moral authority.

Governments which depart from moral authority, denying natural law and the dignity of persons have no authority to command the obedience of subjects, and persons are not commanded to obey.

To penetrate the actions of God in relation to the individual persons rising up to lead them moves into the philosophical arguments surrounding predestination - what did God know and when did he know it … The fine points of that argument are a little beyond my depth, and somewhat arcane unless you are a Calvinist. It is enough for me to return to the conclusion God can work with anything we present him.

Hope that is more responsive.

 

[seanflynn]

This is my (potentially wrong) way of looking at it:

Our government, i.e. constitution, presidency, etc. is somehow *more *ordained by God, and accepted as a legitimate social contract, than our particular *governors *at any particular time. We’ve had 44 presidents, hundreds of congresses in the U.S.A., but only two Governments: The Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.

However, all temporary government leaders are fallen, and all framers of the longer lasting Governments are fallen. So there is always the guarantee that it will not be perfect.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

We were kind of posting over each other and as you amended, I became irrelevant.

City of God / City of Man: Perfection rests in the city of God. The city of man is inherently fallen. Government is an evil, in as much as no man has a natural authority over another, however in a fallen world, the evil of government is exceeded by the evil of anarchy under which none can survive and the weak suffer exceedingly. It is necessary, therefore to chose the lesser of evils in the fallen world, therefore God has ordained governments should rise up to rule men.

Authority derives from God: this is moral authority. In a fallen world we must also make a choice for the lesser of evils as to which government. The measure of a government is the quality of its imitation of the morality of the city of God, expressed as Natural Law. Therefore as a government is just, so then its authority must be obeyed as a derivative of God’s authority, and disobedience incurs punishment here and hereafter.

Persons may decide within their realm on alternate forms of government. There is no such thing as an ordained form of government, per se, and in the contexts of differing peoples, different forms of government may be instituted. The measure of the government continues to be its appeal to moral authority.

Governments which depart from moral authority, denying natural law and the dignity of persons have no authority to command the obedience of subjects, and persons are not commanded to obey.

To penetrate the actions of God in relation to the individual persons rising up to lead them moves into the philosophical arguments surrounding predestination - what did God know and when did he know it … The fine points of that argument are a little beyond my depth, and somewhat arcane unless you are a Calvinist. It is enough for me to return to the conclusion God can work with anything we present him.

Hope that is more responsive.

YES! Thank-You very much. Exactly what I was looking for! God Bless You, answered my question as it has been troubling to me - especially lately.

Amen - God works with whatever we present to Him. Just wish we didn’t ask Him to work so hard most of the time.

Pax

John