Surprisingly traditional service at my Church

[DeusExMachina]

Hello all,

So, as you may remember, I had several complaints about my church and the way they ran the services. However, I am happy to report that as of last week, when I attended a Saturday afternoon service, many of these problems have been fixed. The methodist hymns are gone, the priest was in full Catholic vestments, there was a new crucifix on the altar (veiled in purple); everyone bowed to the altar during communion and made the sign of the cross after receiving. If you can imagine a normal Catholic mass but with a general confession (eastern orthodox style ) in place of the agnus dei. thats basically what this was. So glad to see my church is embracing proper traditional worship.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

If you can imagine a normal Catholic mass but with a general confession (eastern orthodox style ) in place of the agnus dei.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here?

 

[DeusExMachina]

Could you elaborate on what you mean here?

Everyone confessed to the priest in the room, instead of using a booth (I cant remember the correct term) like they do in the RCC

 

[Catholic4Christ]

Everyone confessed to the priest in the room, instead of using a booth (I cant remember the correct term) like they do in the RCC

Interesting! How does this work in the context of the service? Does the priest give sort of an examination of conscience for the congregation to meditate on, or do individuals actually enumerate their sins? Sorry for my ignorance.

 

[babochka]

Everyone confessed to the priest in the room, instead of using a booth (I cant remember the correct term) like they do in the RCC

Do you mean that they had individual confessions before the service, or a general absolution?

 

[babochka]

Interesting! How does this work in the context of the service? Does the priest give sort of an examination of conscience for the congregation to meditate on, or do individuals actually enumerate their sins? Sorry for my ignorance.

Maybe it is something similar to the Armenian practice, in which each individual present recites a public confession (together), then the priest absolves everybody. I’ve never seen it done, but find this approach fascinating. Not really a general absolution, but more of a group confession.

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe it is something similar to the Armenian practice, in which each individual present recites a public confession (together), then the priest absolves everybody. I’ve never seen it done, but find this approach fascinating. Not really a general absolution, but more of a group confession.

The question is though, is this a sacramental confession? I’m guessing no.

 

[babochka]

The question is though, is this a sacramental confession? I’m guessing no.

The Armenian Apostolic Church certainly considers it to be a sacramental absolution. They do not practice individual confession and haven’t for centuries. I’m not sure when or how it fell into disuse, although I’ve heard several stories. The Armenian Apostolic Church has apostolic succession and possesses valid sacraments, so I’m sure the absolution is as valid as any given in the Catholic Church. It is also licit, as it is in accordance with the laws of the valid and proper bishops of the Armenian Apolstolic faithful.

Here is the form used:

The Armenian Orthodox General Form of Confession3

The Priest: In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

The People: I have sinned against the all-holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I have sinned against God. I confess before God, and before the Holy Mother of God, and before all the saints and before you, holy father, all the sins which I have committed; for I have sinned in thought, word, and deed, willingly and unwillingly. I have sinned against God.

The Priest: May God forgive you.

The People: I have sinned by the seven transgressions of the deadly sins and all their forms, namely by pride, envy, anger, laziness, covetousness, gluttony and lust. I have sinned against God.

The Priest: May God forgive you.

The People: I have also sinned against all the commandments of God, both positive and prohibitive; for I have neither performed the positive commands, nor abstained from those things that are prohibited. I accepted the laws, but was slothful in keeping them. I was called to the profession of Christianity but was found unworthy of it by my deeds. While knowing the evil, I willingly gave in to it, and I purposely kept away from good deeds. Woe to me. Woe to me. Woe to me. Which of my misdeeds shall I recount? Which shall I confess? For my sins are innumerable. I have sinned against God.

The Priest: May God forgive you.

The People: Reverend Father, I have you as reconciler and intercessor with the only-begotten Son of God, that by the power given to you, you will release me of the bond of my sins, I ask you.

The Priest: Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. May God who loves mankind have mercy on you and forgive all of your sins, both those which you have confessed, as well as those which you have forgotten. Therefore, with the priestly authority committed to me and by the Lord’s command that “Whatever you forgive on earth shall be forgiven in heaven,” by his very word, I absolve you of all participation in sin, in thought, in word, and in deed, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And I reinstate you in the sacraments of the holy Church, that whatever you may do may be accounted to you for good and for the glory of the life to come. Amen.

Sounds like a sacramental absolution to me.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Interesting! How does this work in the context of the service? Does the priest give sort of an examination of conscience for the congregation to meditate on, or do individuals actually enumerate their sins? Sorry for my ignorance.

We say something like "we confess that we have sinned in word and deed, and repent (lord have mercy),’’ and then the priest absolves us.

 

[Catholic4Christ]

We say something like "we confess that we have sinned in word and deed, and repent (lord have mercy),’’ and then the priest absolves us.

This sounds like the confiteor to me. In Catholic Mass this is done at the beginning of Mass. Older Mass liturgies sometimes placed another right before communion, but never as a replacement for the agnus dei.

 

[ProVobis]

We say something like "we confess that we have sinned in word and deed, and repent (lord have mercy),’’ and then the priest absolves us.

That’s too vague to be a sacramental confession IMO. “Confessing” something like “I’ve sinned against the fifth commandment” would also fall into this category. IOW, you have to man up and be specific, stating frequency as well.

 

[babochka]

That’s too vague to be a sacramental confession IMO. “Confessing” something like “I’ve sinned against the fifth commandment” would also fall into this category. IOW, you have to man up and be specific, stating frequency as well.

I agree that it is too vague and not at all what we consider to be sufficient, but this is the sacrament as practiced in the Armenian Apostolic Church. Personally, I believe they are short-changing their members some of the most important benefits of confession, but there is valid matter and form. We don’t really get to decide how their sacraments occur, and the Church has been clear that Orthodox sacraments are valid.

 

[babochka]

We say something like "we confess that we have sinned in word and deed, and repent (lord have mercy),’’ and then the priest absolves us.

I think that is basically how the Lutheran Church does it in their services. Definitely not how the Orthodox have confessions, though. Orthodox Confessions (outside of the Armenian Apostolic Church that I already mentioned), have individual confession and absolution.