Surrogate Motherhood: okay or no?

[happymommy]

That is a bit rude, I think.

“Alice” has gone to Daily Mass as much as possible, regular with Sunday Mass, watched EWTN’s Masses while ill or the weather was too severe for walking. She reads the Bible almost daily and she has been Catholic for 5 years or longer.

“Brian” only goes to Mass when he feels like it. He only reads his Bible when he feels like it. He’s been a Catholic since he was baptised sometime after birth.

“Carrie” is even less Catholic but still struggling to do her best. She needs prayers and cheering on so she can soon learn how to do the Rosary.

It is obvious that having sex with someone other than your spouse is adultery and a mortal sin, yes. But this did not occur to them in the light of Surrogate Motherhood, which they did not know [until later] was banned by the Church. I can easily understand why they wouldn’t see it. “Brian” now sees that, as does “Carrie”, but I guess they don’t care. I feel they are sometimes too liberal. “Alice” on the other hand, still doesn’t see it and she’s a lot more orthodoxy. So I’m being patient and gentle with her. She only sees it like this…

“I’m helping distraught friends that want a child. How is that adultery? How is that a mortal sin? I only see compassion for them by doing this.”

I praise the Lord she’s as simple as this, but I’m still trying. I would appreciate no more personal attacks on them. As it is, I hope I have not given too many personal details and hope I haven’t made them look bad. I know it is never easy to speak charitably about such a pickle as this, but we must.

Please tell me they are not going to communion while in this state of sin?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Hello, I just wanted to point out some legal aspects that they haven’t thought about…

If Alice and Brian conceive a baby, the baby belongs to Alice and Brian. For the baby to become Carrie’s Alice would have to give up legal right to the baby, and Carrie would need to adopt the baby.

Alice can become very attached to the baby, and refuse to give up her rights. Then Brian would have to sue for custody, will likely have to pay child rt if he doesn’t get custody.

Also, religiously, the Ten Commandments. don’t come with loop-holes and out clauses.

Thou shall not commit adultery means just that. There isn’t an asterisk following saying, “but if you have a really good reason, go ahead.”

It’s really an incorrect situation…and unfair to the potential baby. The baby deserves better than this situation.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

That is a bit rude, I think.

“Alice” has gone to Daily Mass as much as possible, regular with Sunday Mass, watched EWTN’s Masses while ill or the weather was too severe for walking. She reads the Bible almost daily and she has been Catholic for 5 years or longer.

“Brian” only goes to Mass when he feels like it. He only reads his Bible when he feels like it. He’s been a Catholic since he was baptised sometime after birth.

“Carrie” is even less Catholic but still struggling to do her best. She needs prayers and cheering on so she can soon learn how to do the Rosary.

It is obvious that having sex with someone other than your spouse is adultery and a mortal sin, yes. But this did not occur to them in the light of Surrogate Motherhood, which they did not know [until later] was banned by the Church. I can easily understand why they wouldn’t see it. “Brian” now sees that, as does “Carrie”, but I guess they don’t care. I feel they are sometimes too liberal. “Alice” on the other hand, still doesn’t see it and she’s a lot more orthodoxy. So I’m being patient and gentle with her. She only sees it like this…

“I’m helping distraught friends that want a child. How is that adultery? How is that a mortal sin? I only see compassion for them by doing this.”

I praise the Lord she’s as simple as this, but I’m still trying. I would appreciate no more personal attacks on them. As it is, I hope I have not given too many personal details and hope I haven’t made them look bad. I know it is never easy to speak charitably about such a pickle as this, but we must.

I think people here are being charitable and stating the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

I would say a “tennant” of Catholic moral theology is that you must not sin to do a good. It can be summed up:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

This is adultery, plain and simple, no matter how you wrap it up and present it.

 

[Harrison]

Perfect contrition is the condition that will help her and “Brian” get back to the Church? [ponders] I won’t make personal conjecture here, but I’ll let them know about this one and hope they’re able to do it. I think all my questions are resolved now.

Contrition does not have to be perfect to be forgiven in the confessional, but it does need to be at least imperfect. So a person would have to be sorry that they comitted a sin in order to be forgiven. One cannot say to themselves “I know this is wrong, but I’ll do it anyways and just go to confession”. As stated before this is the sin of presumption.

 

[cerad]

Contrition does not have to be perfect to be forgiven in the confessional, but it does need to be at least imperfect. So a person would have to be sorry that they comitted a sin in order to be forgiven. One cannot say to themselves “I know this is wrong, but I’ll do it anyways and just go to confession”. As stated before this is the sin of presumption.

So? You ask forgiveness for the sin of presumption as well and everything is fine. It’s interesting how many people seem to be denying their own rules.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As an atheist, cerad, you really should identify yourself as such when you are responding on threads like these. Yes, it’s in your profile, but not everybody checks those.

We understand you don’t really understand or agree with our teachings (or ‘rules’ as you put it). Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut; duly noted. Now we have your atheist viewpoint on the subject. . . but please permit the OP, who was looking for Catholic teaching, to hear from the Catholics who do understand the teachings. Thank you again.

 

[sanctareparata]

So? You ask forgiveness for the sin of presumption as well and everything is fine. It’s interesting how many people seem to be denying their own rules.

“Hi Cerad. I’m sorry I broke your TV. I *meant *to break it - I knew it was wrong but just wanted to break it anyway. But I did intend to apologize to you *after *I broke it. And I also knew *that *was wrong but I was planning to apologize for intending to apologize after intentionally breaking it anyway. So, I’m sorry.”

Yeah, that’s a real sincere apology. Would YOU accept it?

 

[cerad]

“Hi Cerad. I’m sorry I broke your TV. I *meant *to break it - I knew it was wrong but just wanted to break it anyway. But I did intend to apologize to you *after *I broke it. And I also knew *that *was wrong but I was planning to apologize for intending to apologize after intentionally breaking it anyway. So, I’m sorry.”

Yeah, that’s a real sincere apology. Would YOU accept it?

Nope but then I’m not your god am I?

 

[happymommy]

Nope but then I’m not your god am I?

I feel very blessed by that fact!

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I have a Catholic friend that would like to know the answer to this question but she doesn’t have internet. So I’m asking for her. I did research in the CCC and here on Catholic Answers, but I’m having trouble seeing a clear answer because of the unique circumstances. I’ll try to explain.

“Alice” has a best friend she’s known since High School, a nice Catholic man named “Brian”. He’s gotten engaged and married to a lovely Catholic woman named “Carrie”. “Brian” and “Carrie” would love to have a child of their own and they cannot afford adoption nor medical procedures. So they asked “Alice” to be a Surrogate Mother so they may have their child. “Alice” thinks over the request for a long time. She decides, out of the kindness of her heart, that she would do it.

So “Brian” and “Alice” spent a night together in order to achieve the child. They are patiently waiting to see if a child resulted. If not, they will try again until success happens. All 3 of them are okay with this and see nothing wrong with it. Now here’s where it gets a little complicated…

“Alice” decided to see if the Catechism had anything to say about Surrogate Motherhood and if there were any Catholic guidelines for when the baby should be baptised, etc. She comes to me with a worry that her kind decision might be a mortal sin and she’s scared she might not be Catholic anymore because of it. She won’t change her mind about Surrogate Motherhood and will still do this kind favour for her friends.

So is this okay? It was done in a safe and life-giving manner, no drugs, no forbidden medical procedures, etc. What does it mean for her salvation? Are “Brian” and “Carrie” equally in the same kind of trouble? Or are we just worried too much and everything’s okay?

Thank you, and God bless.

I’m sorry, but this has to be one of the most bizarre things I’ve ever heard of and the mentality of everyone concerned is alarming at best. It was pretty clear after reading this that this situation was not only adulterous (without any doubt) but that just because they have the mentality of “I’m okay, are you okay? If you’re okay, then I’m okay” doesn’t mean it’s logical or moral.

And the kicker is this: “She won’t change her mind” regardless, is an indicator that her conscience is not fully formed and all three need to seek psychological help. It appears that the only thing that Brain and Carrie see is their desire for a child.

Not only am I concerned about these 3 people thinking “it’s okay” to do this, but you are asking if it’s okay too. Don’t you see that it’s wrong? Is anyone in this situation thinking? My goodness…okay, I have to stop because I might get disrespectful and I don’t want to do that.

It’s real simple. It’s morally wrong and logically ridiculous.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Thank you for the responses. Very helpful. Let’s see if I got this all processed right.

Though “Alice” and “Brian” are doing this without medical procedures since “Carrie” is infertile and menopausal, this is adultery–though they don’t see it this way at all. Even “Carrie” is okay with this. The Church isn’t okay with this.

Of course. It doesn’t matter how they look at it. Just because they think the grass outside is blue doesn’t make it true.

So if they confessed what they did, will everything be okay? Or will they have to stop because of confession? If they have to stop, they will not like that. As someone put it, it would seem all 3 “leave” their Catholic Faith just for a compassionate solution to a heartbreaking problem.

What? There is a gross misunderstanding that all of you have regarding sex, marriage and children. I’m sorry, but that’s just true. What are they to do? Well, prayer for starters for God to direct them into a morally and logicaly beneficial solution for all people concerned, mostly for the precious child who will be really confused about its misinformed and illogical parents.

They can love foster children. They can save up money to adopt a child. There are lots of avenues, just not ones that they like. Those options are moral, logical and beneficial for everybody. They need to check their selfish meter.

Peace…

MW

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

“Alice” has no problem with giving up her parental rights and will not need to do so with courts. She lives with them and will be the nanny and homeschool teacher. She and them have really thought this through and they get along with each other very well. And yes, the child will be brought up in the Catholic Faith, even if their Faith got thrown out for bringing life to the child.

I missed this in my last post. Alice lives with them She’ll be the nanny and homeschool teacher

Friend, this is a disaster waiting to happen. And by the way, Alice should worry more about her salvation (if it’s in peril) than about keeping a promise that was flawed to begin with. You can’t keep an immoral promise once you realize it’s immoral. I make no judgments on your soul at all. But she needs to see a priest about this and really think hard about the implications not only for her but for Carrie and Brian as well.

Peace…

MW

 

[sanctareparata]

No one is thinking this through.

First of all, WHY is Alice living with them? Why has that even been allowed? (You state she *is *living with them, not that she *will *live with them.) Is Carrie not threatened by the fact that Alice, her husband’s best friend, is sharing her living space? Was there ever any romantic attraction between Alice and Brian before Carrie was in the picture? I mean, is this baby-making thing just a continuation of a love affair that may have happened in High School or College?

Secondly, do all three of them realize that biologically speaking, certain hormones are produced during the sex act which serve to bond one person to another? Women bond to their “partners” moreso than men do - the hormone oxytocin is released in great quantities, making the woman feel emotionally and physically attached to the man she’s been with. And another hormone in men also causes him to attach himself to her. Why would they want to mess with this?

Does Alice realize that childbirth ALSO produces this hormone? How will she feel when she has to hand her child over to Carrie - a child she made with Brian? How will she feel while she lives in their home with her child, and has to watch Carrie raise him?

Will she be able to not interfere or become resentful if Carrie disciplines the child in a way Alice doesn’t approve of?

What if Carrie lets the baby cry himself to sleep all night? Will Alice allow her to do as she desires or will she jump in and interfere?

What if Carrie spanks the child and Alice shudders at the sight of watching this woman hit one of her own?

What if Carrie loses her patience with the child or punishes him in any way that Alice doesn’t like?

What if Carrie is gone for a weekend and Brian is tempted to invite himself back into Alice’s room under the guise of “providing Junior with a sibling?”

Is Alice going to truly be able to sit back and do nothing? Or will her maternal instinct kick in and cause a huge interfering disruption? WHAT A MESS.

As for the morality of this all, does Alice honestly believe it’s not wrong to be having sex with someone else’s husband? And that her sinful promise to them outweighs her own salvation and possibly the salvation of two other persons she CLAIMS she loves?

I have read this thread over and over again, and I still cannot wrap my head around it.

And I know this is probably TMI, but the first thing that came to my mind when Brian spent the night (and spends the night) in Alice’s room (in Carrie’s HOUSE!) was this: Is he just popping in to her room, depositing his seed, and leaving? Or is there more going on with the two of them such as foreplay, bringing Alice to climax, cuddling afterwards, etc.? (I don’t want an answer to this - it just made me wonder…) If Alice knows there is more going on then just “planting seeds”, so to speak, then I would wager that these two best friends are just coming up with an dandy excuse to get to be together. I wonder if it wasn’t Carrie who was pressured into this arrangement, and if she’s only accepting of it because she has no real say.

Right now, *Carrie’s *the person I pity the most, because she is being left out of everything - the exclusive right to her husband’s body, the right to be the only recipient of his seed, the chance to bear her husband’s child, etc., not to mention the privilege of making a home with her husband alone without the interference of another woman living with them and competing with her.

 

[sanctareparata]

sanctareparata:

Right now, Carrie’s the person I pity the most, because she is being left out of everything - the exclusive right to her husband’s body, the right to be the only recipient of his seed, the chance to bear her husband’s child, etc., not to mention the privilege of making a home with her husband alone without the interference of another woman living with them and competing with her.

Let me also add along with this, ALICE will be raising the child since ALICE will be the *live-in nanny *and homeschool teacher.

Just think about that for a moment. How is Carrie *honestly *going to ever feel like the “real” mother to that child when Alice is the one who made the child with the child’s Daddy, when Alice is the one who bore the child (is she going to breastfeed the baby too?), and now Alice is the one who is with the child day in and day out while (I assume) Carrie works and even while Carrie’s at home. Does Carrie SERIOUSLY think she’s going to leave the house at 7 am and come home at 6 pm and feel like she’s that child’s mother, with Alice ALWAYS there? Does she really think she will be comfortable disciplining and punishing that child in front of Alice?

To me, she has pretty much been left out of this picture.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Let me also add along with this, ALICE will be raising the child since ALICE will be the *live-in nanny *and homeschool teacher.

Just think about that for a moment. How is Carrie *honestly *going to ever feel like the “real” mother to that child when Alice is the one who made the child with the child’s Daddy, when Alice is the one who bore the child (is she going to breastfeed the baby too?), and now Alice is the one who is with the child day in and day out while (I assume) Carrie works and even while Carrie’s at home. Does Carrie SERIOUSLY think she’s going to leave the house at 7 am and come home at 6 pm and feel like she’s that child’s mother, with Alice ALWAYS there? Does she really think she will be comfortable disciplining and punishing that child in front of Alice?

To me, she has pretty much been left out of this picture.

Truly bizarre, isn’t it? I pray for these people - that their minds and hearts be open to logic and the will of God.

Peace…

MW

 

[happymommy]

I still don’t know what to make of this. I wish they would write back! I really want to know how long they are going to try for a baby. Is this going to go on for years? UGH! Some people just make my head hurt

 

[Caesar517]

If I didn’t already know Brian was married to Carrie, I would think he was married to Alice and Carrie is his mistress…

If his goes through as originally planned, I doubt Carrie will still be ok with it in five years.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

If I didn’t already know Brian was married to Carrie, I would think he was married to Alice and Carrie is his mistress…

If this goes through as originally planned, I doubt Carrie will still be ok with it in five years.

Too true.

 

[bluerose]

As much as I love my son–and as much as we wanted him–I cannot even begin to imagine handing my husband’s body over to another woman in order to have had him, nor my husband suggesting this as a sign of his “love” for ME.

I’m trying, but I cannot see ANY love, respect or self-respect in any of this. In fact, it makes me physically ill that NO ONE in this little triangle sees how wrong this whole situation is, or that saving their soul is far more important that fulfilling a promise or obtaining a child by any means.

 

[seremina]

My goodness. So many responses. It will be difficult to reply to each one. I will at least try to help some understanding. I cannot do much more than this, besides prayer.

“Alice” is living with them because she is disabled and has the simple mentality of a loving child. She is nearly 30 and “Carrie” is in her 30’s despite her menopause. “Brian” is nearly 30 himself but his mentality seems much more grown up. Perhaps not as responsible as he should be, but he does try his best. I think his care of “Alice” could use a little improvement, but I do remember that he has little experience with the disabled.

The Surrogate Motherhood was agreed to by “Carrie” even before she and “Brian” told Alice about their version of this concept. Surrogate Motherhood is entirely new to “Alice”, but she’s nicely not nervous about it. She only sees how helpful her loving gift will be. She does not see the adulterous side of it since “Carrie” knows about it and wanted it just as much as “Brian” and only the sweet side of her agreement and promise can be seen. The seed-planting will only be taking place until a pregnancy results. After that, there will be no more of the seed-planting. “Alice” is too simple to feel anything about sex, other than she thinks its boring and an uninteresting addiction. She prefers to be celibate, which often drove “Brian” and “Carrie” a little nuts. He wishes she were more “normal” and be interested in marriage and marital sex. Her ideal of a marriage is a Josephite one. That is, one without any sex involved at all. I guess “Carrie” just thinks “Alice” is weird.

It has already been agreed that “Alice” would be the nanny and homeschool teacher, and “Carrie” would be the mother, “Brian” would be the father, obviously. “Alice” wouldn’t object to anything, considering its not her business and I doubt she could wrap her head around the idea that the child she bore is her child. She would probably just see the child as just a little human being just aching to love Jesus. She has already agreed that she’d give up the child, so there’s no question about that. She’s never gone against an agreement nor promise. She’s very integrity.

I do not feel “Carrie” is being left out. If anything, “Alice” is being left out. She gets no love, no affection, and she’s made to feel that if she doesn’t contribute around the house then she’s worthless to have around, or so “Brian” told her. I think that’s the worst thing he could’ve said to her and it doesn’t help that “Carrie” has this same viewpoint and would most likely repeat it. “Alice” just wants to be loved for who she is, and I do my best to do that. It seems nobody else in the world does, besides Jesus. All the world sees is what a burden she is and don’t appreciate her hugs.

I know “Alice” would be better off breaking her promise, but she sees that as wrong. So how can I try to direct her to do that? She doesn’t see the Surrogate Motherhood as wrong, so its useless for me to try to explain to her that it is, though I did try. She doesn’t want Priest involvement. She just wants to continue being Catholic without receiving Communion nor any Sacraments. She thinks that’s fair if what she did was wrong, though she doesn’t see it as wrong. She’s trying to do the right thing, smile, and hope. I know she’s not doing the right thing, is faking that smile, and her hope will probably carry a little despair with it because she doesn’t understand why she’s being punished for something that is loving and selfless. Its like she’s being punished for abortion though that’s not what she’s done and she’s very anti-abortion and she was almost an abortion victim herself while in her mother’s womb.

And in case you ask, no, she can’t rely on her family. They don’t care about her and were always abusive to her.

I think this will be my last post. I wish I knew how to close my own threads like I’ve seen people do at other forums. I understand people’s need for updates, but I’m seeing more harm than good out of this thread. I’m glad I got answers and advice, but a lot of judgment and other vices seem to be going on and I feel almost egged on to provide more and more info. I’ll at least put my own advice below, for others to read.

For those considering Surrogate Motherhood, don’t do it. It may seem a loving choice and perhaps lifefully done, but its not allowed by the Church and its a form of adultery. You will risk your salvation and mess up your life. Any man that pressures you for a gift, in any way, is not a man. Even if he’s aching for a child, don’t react to his ache. If you’re disabled and in this situation, talk to other adults about it. Don’t drop it into their lap when you’re sad and troubled, way after such an agreement and promise was made.

There. I think that does it okay.