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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Yes, we do. No orthodox (small "o) Christian has EVER believed Mary was God. Heretics and pagans may have. But at one time the entire Church was united, before the Greek schism and most assuredly you cannot prove that any orthodox Christian worshipped Mary as our redeemer.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Theological opinions are not Catholic dogma. Go through the Catechism of the Catholic Church and show me where it says we believe she is God.
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Semper Fi:
Yes, the Church never claimed that mary is God and Yes, Catholics do not believe that Mary is God. The Qur’an says god and not God. Believing someone is a god is believing he has attributes not common to human being and I showed through the statements made by the Church leaders that Mary was not considered as a normal being, but she is believed to have far reaching powers.
Here is a link which I hope will help understand the Islamic position.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Salaam Semper Fi;
Yes, the Church never claimed that mary is God and Yes, Catholics do not believe that Mary is God. The Qur’an says god and not God. Believing someone is a god is believing he has attributes not common to human being and I showed through the statements made by the Church leaders that Mary was not considered as a normal being, but she is believed to have far reaching powers.
Here is a link which I hope will help understand the Islamic position.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Psalm 82
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods”:
2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
**
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
**
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
What far reaching powers did those in Psalms 82 have?
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the “gods”:
2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
**
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
**
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
What far reaching powers did those in Psalms 82 have?
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IanS
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
1 [Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel’s God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust “gods” (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8).
2 [5] The gods are blind and unable to declare what is right. Their misrule shakes earth’s foundations (cf Psalm 11:3; 75:4), which God made firm in creation (Psalm 96:10).
3 [6]I said, 'You are “gods”: in John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called “gods.” That in no way indicates they are equal to the one true God or in any way a person of the Trinity.
4 [8] Judge the earth: according to Deut 32:8-9, Israel’s God had originally assigned jurisdiction over the foreign nations to the subordinate deities, keeping Israel as a personal possession. Now God will directly take over the rulership of the whole world.
According to the NAB:
1 [Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel’s God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust “gods” (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8).
2 [5] The gods are blind and unable to declare what is right. Their misrule shakes earth’s foundations (cf Psalm 11:3; 75:4), which God made firm in creation (Psalm 96:10).
3 [6]I said, 'You are “gods”: in John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called “gods.” That in no way indicates they are equal to the one true God or in any way a person of the Trinity.
4 [8] Judge the earth: according to Deut 32:8-9, Israel’s God had originally assigned jurisdiction over the foreign nations to the subordinate deities, keeping Israel as a personal possession. Now God will directly take over the rulership of the whole world.
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Tonyagrace
Guest
The Blessed Virgin Mary is Not God.
I don’t understand why one would go to the Quaran to learn about the Blessed Virgin or Jesus Christ for that matter. It would be like wanting to learn more about the Democratic Party so you ask a Republican.
I don’t understand why one would go to the Quaran to learn about the Blessed Virgin or Jesus Christ for that matter. It would be like wanting to learn more about the Democratic Party so you ask a Republican.
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shannin
Guest
Duh I want to learn more about Democrats so I think that I’ll ask a Republican and then after that I want to learn all about Catholics so I’ll read the Quaran I’m on a real quest for truth :banghead:
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
It depends on what you mean by “normal human attributes”. All of Mary’s attributes whether in Heaven or while she was on Earth were given to her by God, the same as you and me. Mary has a special role in Christianity and Christian devotion because we believe she is the person that said “yes” to the angel and who was the first person in the world to carry out the Faith correctly and made it possible for Christians to be saved by bringing the Word (Christ) into humanity. In Christian devotion, we do believe that Mary is the reason that Christ performed His first miracle at the wedding in Cana in which He turned water into wine for the wedding guests even though He said He was not ready to show them His true nature, but His mother asked Him. Anything she has, she has because of God and because she was Faithful to Him. There is a correlation in Christian theology of Mary being the New Eve and Christ being the New Adam. Keep this in mind when you read Catholic stuff, because for an outsider you can easily misunderstand something, just as many people easily misunderstand stuff about Islam (as I pointed out earlier many Protestants I know accuse Muslims of idolatry because they pray towards a rock). One more thing, I already know the Islamic view of Shirk, and as you can imagine, I don’t subscribe to your view.
I believe that all saints are connected through Christ Jesus, whether living on Earth, living in Heaven, or “in” Purgatory. I believe that once we die, we get a new glorified body which will join us to the Living God, making us more alive than we are now. Keep in mind, in Catholic theology prayers are only answered by God and it is not against our theology to believe that saints whether living on Earth or living in Heaven are praying for you.
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IanS
Guest
shannin said:
The Quaran? I’m afraid I must disagree. We all know that the best source for the truth about the Catholic Church is at “Chick Publications”.
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Semper Fi:
Fair enough my friend. I will keep it close.
Joseph.
Salaam Simper Fi;It depends on what you mean by “normal human attributes”. All of Mary’s attributes whether in Heaven or while she was on Earth were given to her by God, the same as you and me. Mary has a special role in Christianity and Christian devotion because we believe she is the person that said “yes” to the angel and who was the first person in the world to carry out the Faith correctly and made it possible for Christians to be saved by bringing the Word (Christ) into humanity. In Christian devotion, we do believe that Mary is the reason that Christ performed His first miracle at the wedding in Cana in which He turned water into wine for the wedding guests even though He said He was not ready to show them His true nature, but His mother asked Him. Anything she has, she has because of God and because she was Faithful to Him. There is a correlation in Christian theology of Mary being the New Eve and Christ being the New Adam. Keep this in mind when you read Catholic stuff, because for an outsider you can easily misunderstand something, just as many people easily misunderstand stuff about Islam (as I pointed out earlier many Protestants I know accuse Muslims of idolatry because they pray towards a rock). One more thing, I already know the Islamic view of Shirk, and as you can imagine, I don’t subscribe to your view.
Fair enough my friend. I will keep it close.
Joseph.
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Neilbass2
Guest
You are taking what is said out of context. The subject at hand is that if you neglect the service she did, i.e. giving birth to the Messiah and Savior, you cannot be saved, because you are, in a literal sense, denying Christ. And, though it was the will of God that she concieve a Child, you must keep in mind that she did have free will. She allowed it to happed as much as God willed it. Without Marys “assistance”, Jesus wouldnt have been born. Therefore, her service was in our salvation, and still is, even though it is Christ that saved us and cives us that salvation. Those who deny that Jesus was born, ie, deny that Mary gave birth to him, and find strength and can be consoled though this, cannot be saved. If you do not believe that she is the Mother of God (Jesus) if you do not believe she is full of Grace (invoke) that she may give birth to God, then you deny God and Deny Jesus and his humanity. Without Mary giving birth to Christ, we would not have been saved. It is the only way it could happen, and so it did, and so it is.
She does help us by praying for us, and she was pure and holy, but not devine. I dont even really see a need to try and explain what is being said in this quote, because I dont think it needs explaination. It is pretty clear. Mary helps us, and she does. And so it is.
reference my response to the first quote.
We beg her to have pity on us, but not have Mercy on us. It is God alone who gives us His Devine Mercy, while Mary can pity us and pray for us. By praying on our behalves, she can help to bring us to reconsiliation with the Lord. She, through her love, can comfort and help us.
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Neilbass2
Guest
Why is this offensive or of any argument? She she was a good girl, and God rewarded her. Do you, as a Muslim, believe that the virgin mother of Jesus should not be allowed into the Devine Tabernacles or should not be spared from harm? Was she not a Holy woman?
Of course, she can pray for whomever she wishes. But if you ask her, I assure you she would pray for you as well. In fact, im sure that she is praying for you even at this very moment, as I am. She can speak and ask of God on your behalf and show you her love as she wishes, but things such as the Mercy itself come from God, not Mary. So while this means that Grace might come to us as a result of or in addition to the assistance of her prayers and love, this does not mean that all grace must come through her. And further, this particualr passage was talking about her more in her earthly life, I believe. And God did, indeed, give her special gifts. He made her free of sin! And by being the one chosen to give birth to Jesus, she has already given and dispensed Gods mercy to us in as much as she personally chose to give. She, of course, decided to give it to us 100 percent, as the Father had willed her to do.
What is the problem here? You are against the idea that she was a good and pure spouse?
This is not saying that Mary has the power to answer prayers where Jesus does not. It says that God is justified in answering many prayers with a “no”. Nobody deserves the Graces of God. But Mary, who is “full of Grace”, can pray on our behalf, and she is justified in deserving her prayers be answered. Therefore, through the power of her intersession, much like the intercession of other saints and angels, God may answer our prayers, but no one but God Himself actually does the answering
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Neilbass;
Peace to you Brother/Sister. I have no comments to your posts. However I have one question: do you agree when Mary is called the Spouse of the Father, and If so what does it means?
My belief about Mary is that she will be in the highest level of paradise, with the prophets, the martyrs in the way of God and the trustworthy.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Peace to you Brother/Sister. I have no comments to your posts. However I have one question: do you agree when Mary is called the Spouse of the Father, and If so what does it means?
My belief about Mary is that she will be in the highest level of paradise, with the prophets, the martyrs in the way of God and the trustworthy.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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St.Eric
Guest
Daniel Marsh said:
First of all, with all due respect, that quote from the Koran is ludicrus. And no, Mary is not God, she is: Theotokos!
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jwthrip
Guest
Joseph,
God answers all prayers whether an intecessor is involved or not. Sometimes the answer is no.
As to the question of whether Mary is God. Put me down for an emphatic NO also.
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Neilbass2
Guest
And peace be upon you, as well.
Joseph_Alison:
As the Mother of Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, she is the spouse of God in that she is the Mother of His Child. Therefore, she remained true, pure, and obedient to her spouse. Hence the term “Queen of Heaven”, she is the mother of theKing. She never laid with Joseph, although Joseph was her real phisical husband and protector. She remained a virgin to Joseph because she was the “spouse” of God, and if your wife had Gods only Son, you may not think it right to sleep with her either, after all, her body was a Holy temple of the Most High God, where he physically resided for nine months.
Salaam. Neil (i am a brother, by the way, not a sister)
Yes, we do believe this as Catholics. But the term “spouse” doesnt mean exactly what you might think here. It doesnt mean she is the “wife” of God, as if God mariied her and made her equal with Himself.
As the Mother of Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, she is the spouse of God in that she is the Mother of His Child. Therefore, she remained true, pure, and obedient to her spouse. Hence the term “Queen of Heaven”, she is the mother of theKing. She never laid with Joseph, although Joseph was her real phisical husband and protector. She remained a virgin to Joseph because she was the “spouse” of God, and if your wife had Gods only Son, you may not think it right to sleep with her either, after all, her body was a Holy temple of the Most High God, where he physically resided for nine months.
Salaam. Neil (i am a brother, by the way, not a sister)
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MariaG
Guest
Thank you, I know next to nothing about the Islamic religion or position.
I read through with interest. I can see why the divide is so great between Christianity and Islam.
I find that non-Catholic Christians often have trouble understanding the Catholic position of Mary. And we have Christ in common. For them, I frequently say that you first have to understand what we believe about Christ, to understand the words about Mary. Because from the Catholic viewpoint, all praises and “flowery words” about Mary, are ultimately, praising God because she was His creation. The Glory and Honor belong to God for His most obedient creation.
And I can see how many of the prayers asking for her help or seeming to seek refuge in her* instead* of God would be considered a major shirk(?).
Question: Do mothers pray to God for thier children in Islam? Husbands for their wives? Friends for their friends? My ignorance of your religion is great so I ask have to ask.
Maria
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Daniel Marsh said:
Salaam Daniel;
I am sure you are aware of the context of the verse. This is a dialog between Allah (SWT) and His messenger Jesus (PBUH), and is taking place the judgment day.
As I explained before, the verse is talking about people taking Mary as god and not God, but let us suppose it is talking about her being taken as God, and keeping in mind the context of the verse, which is the judgment day, do you think people from now till the Last Day will not take Mary as God? In other words, what assurance do we have that Mary will not be deified sometimes during the remaining time till the Last day?
Salaam.
Joseph.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
The guidence of the scriptures and the guidence of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who would deify Mary would be automatically excommunicated from the Church via Gal 1:6-8.
Galatians 1:6-8 (New International Version)
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
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