survey Mary is God? yes or no?

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam George;
George Waters:

Salaam Joseph!
I think you will admit that we do not and cannot understand the nature and ways of God unless He reveals His nature or ways to us.

Yes, I admit. However, we differ in our belief in the “how”. To that end, you believe He came down in human form, which is not my belief.
It would be a total failure if God Almighty would come down by Himself and end up on a cross. I can see why the crucifixion has been tied up with salvation; it simply defies logic that God would be hanged up.

I think you would also admit that God expects us to have faith in Him, faith beyond our limited understanding and knowledge.

Yes, I admit. We tend to only believe what our senses can grasp; and yet we believe in God although these same senses cannot grasp Him.

When someone says that the Trinity does not make sense, they are in effect limiting the power of God, at least in their own mind.

Not necessarily George; denying the trinity is not limiting the power of God; to me it is the opposite that is true: believing in the trinity is limiting the power of God!

Why should there be three All-Powerful persons in one nature or one essence, when One All-Powerful person in one nature ONLY can do whatever pleases Him, including creating less powerful beings to serve His purpose?

What would make One All-Powerful Person, in one nature, less efficient, or less Knowing or less Hearing?

Why is it that God, the One Conscious Being is not called “ a person”, all the while , and when talking about the three part of Him, people say the “persons” of the trinity? The One God is not a “person”, but the three members of the trinity are!

You may say: we believe in One God. Yes, but look at the term “G-o-d”, these are three letters, and people don’t worship three letters! Do they? What people worship is the Conscious Being behind these three letters, He is believed to be the Creator, the Giver of life and death etc; in other terms the word “G-o-d” is a definition, it is not a proper name; the same applies to the Father, to the Son and to The Holy Spirit; all these terms are not proper names but definitions. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all believed to be separate Conscious Beings.
Would it be correct if I say that God (The Conscious Being) is Three Conscious Beings in One Conscious Being (God)? If so, why could I not say that God (The Conscious Being) is One All-Powerful Conscious Being in One All-Powerful Conscious Being? Would it be limiting the power of God in saying such?

George, I have one question for you: What is the proper name of God (The One God) in the NT? Is it Jesus? If so, I say that Jesus is the name of God the Son; we don’t have a proper name for God the Father and we don’t have a proper name for God the Holy Spirit. No one can give a proper name to God, except Himself and it seems to me that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit forgot to give themselves proper names in the NT. Why is this?
If I have read the Bible correctly, I think that Jesus is believed to the “I AM” which spoke to Moses, my understanding then is that Jesus and Yahweh are the same according to the Bible, so God (The One God) would have changed His name but only to the Son part of it.
Since God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are persons, they should have proper names, which they don’t, and because they are believed to be the same God alongside with the Son, I think we can call them all by the proper name we know about, which is Jesus. Since it is believed that Jesus said, “I and the father are one”, why could not I use the same name for the Father and the Holy Spirit? The Father would be called Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would be called Jesus as well.

They are allowing their own knowledge and understanding to supersede that of God and are not demonstrating that they have faith in Him beyond their own knowledge and understanding.

Humbly, I answer to this that it is the ones who “said” God is three persons in one nature, from the same substance, who are trying to supersede God’s knowledge and understanding. No wonder why Allah (SWT) calls them the transgressors (Not you, by the ones who enounced the doctrine, many people are only following in the footsteps of their parents).

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[inJESUS]

It would be a total failure if God Almighty would come down by Himself and end up on a cross. I can see why the crucifixion has been tied up with salvation; it simply defies logic that God would be hanged up

Salam Joseph, that is a bit disappointing that you still believe it was God who was hang up…God does not die…it is Jesus, the second in the Godhead who took a human form and it is this human form that died, just like we mortals die.

Not necessarily George; denying the trinity is not limiting the power of God; to me it is the opposite that is true: believing in the trinity is limiting the power of God!

we are talking about limiting the nature of God…you are limiting him to the mathematical number one…yes the One God is all powerful, but why limit his nature to a mathematical number when we already know that even in humanity there are things in 3 yet One. Now you will say : then why not 4 or 5 or 10? simply because God revealed himself that way.

Why should there be three All-Powerful persons in one nature …

3 in one nature means ONE nature. It is this ONE nature that does everything. It is not that Jesus does something and the Father somthing else…it is ONE nature, one will, but in three persons.

What would make One All-Powerful Person, in one nature, less efficient, or less Knowing or less Hearing?

it is ONE nature still so one God.

Why is it that God, the One Conscious Being is not called “ a person”…

because we had to have a human concept so we called it person…in arabic it is uknum…person does not mean human person.

George, I have one question for you: What is the proper name of God (The One God) in the NT?

God does not have a proper name coz he is not a human being…God is : I AM WHAT I AM.

Is it Jesus? If so, I say that Jesus is the name of God the Son;

Jesus is the name of the human Jesus…Jesus was not a human…just like the angel said : Jesus is Emmanuel, that is, God with us…

we don’t have a proper name for God the Father and we don’t have a proper name for God the Holy Spirit. No one can give a proper name to God,…

because simply they do not have names according to you, Allah is his proper name…yet Allah is Allaha in aramaic, why? mohammads father, a non-muslim, was called AbdALLAH…is it possible that these people knew by themselves God’s name and later Allah said: hey thats my real name? God does not have a name…it is I AM what I AM.

If I have read the Bible correctly, I think that Jesus is believed to the “I AM” which spoke to Moses, my understanding then is that Jesus and Yahweh are the same according to the Bible, so God (The One God) would have changed His name but only to the Son part of it.

I AM is not God’s name…it is how he defined himself but never said it is His name…when Jesus attributed to himself the I AM, jews picked up stones to stone him.Jesus’ name means :God saves…so it is I AM that I AM who saves…he simply does not have a name…Jesus had a name coz he was a human being…and saying : hey i dont have a name coz i am God is silly coz Jesus knew what kinda effect this willl have…Jesus revealed his truth step by step…even his disciples understood who he really is after the resurrection…before it they were doubtful and ran away and Jesus told them many times : you who lack faith!! I AM with you and you are afraid? only after the resurrection did they become who they are, defenders of their Lord and martyrs.

Since God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are persons, they should have proper names, which they don’t, and because they are believed to be the same God alongside with the Son, I think we can call them all by the proper name we know about, which is Jesus.

no, persons as i said is uknum in arabic…the word persons is not the perfect one but we have to find a human description coz we are humans…

Since it is believed that Jesus said, “I and the father are one”, why could not I use the same name for the Father and the Holy Spirit? The Father would be called Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would be called Jesus as well.

no, the three are callled God but the Father, Son and Spirit are the description of God, not his name.

Humbly, I answer to this that it is the ones who “said” God is three persons in one nature, from the same substance, who are trying to supersede God’s knowledge and understanding. No wonder why Allah (SWT) calls them the transgressors (Not you, by the ones who enounced the doctrine, many people are only following in the footsteps of their parents).

the early fathers explained the doctrine of the Bible with human names…they did not create it.

Donno if i explained things well with my english…if something is vague others will correct me.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Maria;
Sorry for the late answer.

MariaG:

Do Muslims claim to completely understand the nature of God?

Maria;
Sometimes I try to imagine myself on a planet deep in the universe, lost between billions of stars and galaxies, and I imagine myself trying to locate the planet earth. You can imagine that it is impossible and if it is impossible for me to locate a planet million times my size, it is more impossible for me to locate a human being, yet that human being makes such claims!

Maria; try this LINK to have an idea on Islamic theology. The writer is a renowned Muslim theologien Abu Hamed Al Ghazali.
No one can claim to know the complete nature of God.
Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[George_Waters]

Salaam Joseph,

You are most correct my friend; we do have differing beliefs about God. Thank you for sharing your beliefs without attacking anyone else’s beliefs.

You had said “It would be a total failure if God Almighty would come down by Himself and end up on a cross. I can see why the crucifixion has been tied up with salvation; it simply defies logic that God would be hanged up.” I believe that is a human view and not necessarily God’s view. When I think of God coming down to us and sacrificing Himself for us I see it as the greatest show of love for His creation and an example for us all. Just as I am sure you and I would sacrifice ourselves for ones we love. That is my believe, and fits what I know of God.

You asked me what the proper name of God is in the New Testament. I agree with brother inJesus (Who does not give himself enough credit where his English is concerned!) that God does not have a “proper name”. He is everything to us, creator, father, redeemer, helper; the list goes on and on.

Do you find that most Muslims believe Christians are tri-theistic? I really wonder if discussions about the Trinity are more based on the erroneous belief that Christians are tri-theistic than on the nature of God.

This really all comes down to belief doesn’t it? You have the Quran and we have the Bible and they have different messages, different views of God. I will not thump my chest and say my Holy Book says so and that settles it like others do. It does settle it for me and for millions and millions of others, but not for you and that is fine. God calls to each of us and reveals Himself to us in different ways.

Let us always seek God my friend and open our hearts to Him.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Joseph_Alison:

Maria; try this LINK to have an idea on Islamic theology. The writer is a renowned Muslim theologien Abu Hamed Al Ghazali.

Point # 9 of the first ten principles should read “He is NOT seen” and not “He is seen”, that was certainly an obvious typo which I will report to the the website’s admin.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[MariaG]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam Maria;
Sorry for the late answer.

Maria;
Sometimes I try to imagine myself on a planet deep in the universe, lost between billions of stars and galaxies, and I imagine myself trying to locate the planet earth. You can imagine that it is impossible and if it is impossible for me to locate a planet million times my size, it is more impossible for me to locate a human being, yet that human being makes such claims!

Maria; try this LINK to have an idea on Islamic theology. The writer is a renowned Muslim theologien Abu Hamed Al Ghazali.
No one can claim to know the complete nature of God.
Salaam.
Joseph.

Joseph,

Thank you for the link. I have read some of it and have bookmarked it so I can easily find it again and study it more.

I guess I am very confused then. I asked if Muslims claimed to be know the complete nature of God because you seemed to have a problem with the Christian concept of the Trinity that tries to explain in part the Nature of God, One God in three persons. Yet that very explanation of God’s nature in itself can be hard to truly understand. I thought maybe your objection was that we Christians say that even with the explantion of the Trinity, it is impossible to *fully *understand the nature of God.

You said earlier:

originally posted by Joseph_Alison
George, I never met someone (a Christian that is) who claimed to understand the trinity and I wish the trinity’s view were simple so our Christian Brethren could educate us.

Do you think that we Christians think the Trinity fully explains and allows us to comprehend the nature of God?

Or do you place expectations upon Christianity that are not possible even according to your own beliefs, ie that God’s nature can not be fully understood.

You seem to expect the Christian doctrine of the Trinity to fully explain the nature of God, yet have no such expectations on Islam to fully explain the nature of God? Or as I said above, is your objection that you think Christians feel that the explanation of the Trinity fully explains God’s nature?

Thank you again for that link. I will read more before I post again so maybe, I can understand exactly what you objections are.

Because unlike God’s nature, which can never be fully understood even with the doctrine of the Trinity, I do believe I will some day be able to understand your position.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

bookmark

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam inJESUS;

inJESUS:

we are talking about limiting the nature of God…you are limiting him to the mathematical number one

His nature is better known through His attributes which He revealed to us, and one of those attributes is The One ( Al Wa’hid, Al Ahad).
Behind the term God there is a Conscious Being, having Absolute Divine Attributes.
God is believed to be in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
When I think a bout the term God, I think about the Conscious Being who has All the Divine Attributes.
The trinity states that God (the same God I think about) is three separate, but co-equal persons or Conscious beings, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, possessing the same Divine Attributes. They are believed to be One when they are addressed under the term God, but again the term God is a definition, behind which is The Absolute Conscious Being.

Therefore the trinity can be stated as three separate, but co-equal Absolute Conscious Beings in One Absolute Conscious Being. This makes things difficult to grasp. A turn around, is to state that the trinity is three separate, but co-equal persons in One nature. But the nature of who? The nature of God; the term God comes again! and behind it, is… the Absolute Conscious Being; so we are talking about the nature of the same Absolute Conscious Being.

We can’t differentiate between God and His nature, can we? Therefore -again- the trinity could be stated as being three separate but co-equal Absolute Conscious Beings into One Absolute Conscious Being, and how do you merge three separate but co-equal Absolute Conscious Beings into One Absolute Conscious Being? No matter how you state the trinity, you just can’t. Trinity is impossible, and I am not talking about mathematics!

…yes the One God is all powerful, but why limit his nature to a mathematical number when we already know that even in humanity there are things in 3 yet One.

Yes, 3 things in 1 thing exist, but each one of the three things can be broken down to multitude of things, the end result would be multitudes of things and I am not talking breaking them to the atom level!
A triangle needs to be drawn or made by someone.The water to exist in three states needs an external agent which is heat, remove heat from vapor water and you get liquid water, continue removing heat and you get ice; and the process is reversible etc. God does not need an external agent to exist! All the analogies are another proof of the impossibilty of the trinity.

3 in one nature means “ONE nature”. It is this ONE nature that does everything. It is not that Jesus does something and the Father something else…it is ONE nature, one will, but in three persons.

This “One nature”, which is the Divine nature, is it shared by the three persons of the trinity or does each and every member or the trinity fully has it by his own? In other words, are we talking about one third of the divine nature for each person of the trinity or are we talking about full divine nature for each and every member of the trinity?
In the case where every member of the trinity is believed to possess one third of it, then not a member of the trinity taken alone can be considered to be fully God! They must convene together to achieve something, which means that taken separately, they are impotent and yet every person of the trinity is believed to be fully God!
In the case where each and every member of the trinity is believed to possess the full divine nature, then we have three divine natures and not “One divine nature”, this is the equivalent of three gods and not One God. Tri-theism!

The willingness of the trinity makers to make Jesus fully God blinded them and lead them to announce an impossible doctrine. If we put Jesus (PBUH) in his right place, which is the messenger of God, then everything becomes clear.
The trinity is not a mystery, it is an impossibility. Calling it a mystery is a smart way to disguise its impossibility.

God does not have a proper name coz he is not a human being…God is : I AM WHAT I AM.

But he has one In the OT! And the OT is part of the Christian Scripture.
What happened?
Who gave to God the name “Jehovah” in the OT? “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them”. (KJV, ASV 1901, EX 6:3)

In the Catholic Douay Rheims version of the Bible (OT part), a search for the word JEHOVAH returned zero occurrences.
In the ASV 1901 version of the Bible (OT part), the same search returned 500 occurrences.
In the KJV version of the Bible (OT part), the same search returned 4 occurrences.
Jehovah or Yahweh is the same name.

Cont…

 

[believers]

Ted CharlotteNC:

Mary is not God
Jesus is God

Mother Mary is a sinless “creation”
Jesus is the Creator

Hi there,
Mary is not God.
God is the Creator.
Jesus is the only Son of God and the only person to have never sinned.
Mary was the mother of Jesus.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

…Cont and end

according to you, Allah is his proper name…yet Allah is Allaha in aramaic, why? mohammads father, a non-muslim, was called AbdALLAH…is it possible that these people knew by themselves God’s name and later Allah said: hey thats my real name?

Ishmael, a Hanif like his father Abraham, established himself in the region, the story is well known in the Holy Qur’an. It is no wonder then that the Arabs knew Allah (SWT) through him; he is called the Father of the Arabs.

God does not have a name…it is I AM what I AM.

Capitalizing letter does not change the meaning. Everyone IS what HE IS.

you who lack faith!! I AM with you and you are afraid? [/QOUTE]
He did not say: “I AM **is **with you…” I AM with you simply means he was with them. Period.
“Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while I am with you: and then I go to him that sent me”. (JN 7:33)

Brothers and Sisters in this respected forum, I ask your forgiveness I offended you in any way by discussing the foundation of your beliefs, also may be saying something which you will find inappropriate from my part. It is not my intent.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[George_Waters]

Joseph_Alison:

Brothers and Sisters in this respected forum, I ask your forgiveness I offended you in any way by discussing the foundation of your beliefs, also may be saying something which you will find inappropriate from my part. It is not my intent.

Brother Joseph,

I for one have always found you most respectful and have enjoyed discussing our various beliefs. While we may disagree I value your participation on this forum.

May God bless you and guide you to Him!

 

[LilyM]

Salaam Joseph

I do not believe God is quite so simple either in nature or in form as Islam would make him out to be. As I’ve said in another post, even to the Jews God did occasionally take on physical form. In Genesis it is said he made man and woman in his image and likeness - unlike the animals. This seems to mean he had some likeness to humans. Certainly he ‘walked’ in the Garden of Eden and talked to Moses ‘face to face as to a friend’ (can’t remember the reference but you can search my other posts for it). I accept however that these may be figures of speech.

He also, however, appeared as other objects - a burning bush, a pillar of cloud or fire - and dwelt in a special way in both the Ark of the Covenant and in the Holy of Holies in the temple (which is why only the priests were allowed to enter it). It’s not such a leap from God taking particular physical forms or being uniquely in particular physical places to believing that he took on a human form.

With Islam’s insistence that God cannot be at the same time one and three it seems to be reducing Him to the level of a cake or some other physical object that cannot at the same time be whole and in pieces and/or complete in each piece. We simply do not believe that God can be or is restricted in His nature or capabilities in this way.

We also believe he is infinite love and has infinite love for his suffering children. This is so much so that he wishes to share in their suffering and take it onto himself if this will alleviate it. Many parents feel the same when they see their children suffering. The difference is that God actually CAN and DOES truly and fully share our suffering rather than merely wishing to do it.

In my opinion He can certainly do so without taking on human form. However, he also wants to communicate with us in a way we can understand and to let US know that he is sharing intimately in our suffering. He also does so in a way which will let us know that there is real meaning and significance to our suffering. And for these purposes a burning bush or pillar of fire doesn’t cut it, because our human comprehension and imagination is so limited.

If I want to make a message written in English understood to a person who understands only French I have to be able to communicate well in both languages. If I’m trying to explain an adult concept to a five-year-old, I have to at one and the same time think like an adult and like a five-year-old. So God came to earth in human form while retaining his divinity - to bridge as much as possible that communication gap between God and Man.

I know Muslims believe that God intervenes directly in human events from time to time to show his power and deliver his message. He has done this by performing miracles, as he did for the prophets. Surely the greatest and most powerful way for Him to make himself known and understood to us, as well as loved by us, would be to BECOME human and suffer for our sake. The God I believe in couldn’t NOT do this, such is his love for us and desire to help us.

Anyways, peace and blessings on you. You’re more of a credit to your faith than most Muslims on these boards.

 

[desire_the_end]

Salaam Muslim bretheren.

I have learned a good deal more about Islam from the discussions in this thread. Thank you for being humble and considerate. May the Holy One be with you forever, and guide you to paradise.

Your brother in grace and under His mercy,
Tony

 

[JSmitty2005]

believers:

Jesus is the only Son of God and the only person to have never sinned.

CORRECTION - Mary was conceived without Original Sin and never sinned either.

Also: it is a pious belief that John the Baptist was born without Original Sin

 

[Fr_Chuck]

No of course this is not a Catholic Teachings, but this is a good example that the Quaran was written by taking various religious teachings from the other religions of the area. There were break away Chrsitian groups with false teachings in that area that was taken over. so thier false teachings got included into the Quran as did other religous teachings.

Basicly a good example of how it was man written not inspired.

 

[George_Waters]

LilyM:

Salaam Joseph

I do not believe God is quite so simple either in nature or in form as Islam would make him out to be. As I’ve said in another post, even to the Jews God did occasionally take on physical form. In Genesis it is said he made man and woman in his image and likeness - unlike the animals. This seems to mean he had some likeness to humans. Certainly he ‘walked’ in the Garden of Eden and talked to Moses ‘face to face as to a friend’ (can’t remember the reference but you can search my other posts for it). I accept however that these may be figures of speech.

He also, however, appeared as other objects - a burning bush, a pillar of cloud or fire - and dwelt in a special way in both the Ark of the Covenant and in the Holy of Holies in the temple (which is why only the priests were allowed to enter it). It’s not such a leap from God taking particular physical forms or being uniquely in particular physical places to believing that he took on a human form.

With Islam’s insistence that God cannot be at the same time one and three it seems to be reducing Him to the level of a cake or some other physical object that cannot at the same time be whole and in pieces and/or complete in each piece. We simply do not believe that God can be or is restricted in His nature or capabilities in this way.

We also believe he is infinite love and has infinite love for his suffering children. This is so much so that he wishes to share in their suffering and take it onto himself if this will alleviate it. Many parents feel the same when they see their children suffering. The difference is that God actually CAN and DOES truly and fully share our suffering rather than merely wishing to do it.

In my opinion He can certainly do so without taking on human form. However, he also wants to communicate with us in a way we can understand and to let US know that he is sharing intimately in our suffering. He also does so in a way which will let us know that there is real meaning and significance to our suffering. And for these purposes a burning bush or pillar of fire doesn’t cut it, because our human comprehension and imagination is so limited.

If I want to make a message written in English understood to a person who understands only French I have to be able to communicate well in both languages. If I’m trying to explain an adult concept to a five-year-old, I have to at one and the same time think like an adult and like a five-year-old. So God came to earth in human form while retaining his divinity - to bridge as much as possible that communication gap between God and Man.

I know Muslims believe that God intervenes directly in human events from time to time to show his power and deliver his message. He has done this by performing miracles, as he did for the prophets. Surely the greatest and most powerful way for Him to make himself known and understood to us, as well as loved by us, would be to BECOME human and suffer for our sake. The God I believe in couldn’t NOT do this, such is his love for us and desire to help us.

Anyways, peace and blessings on you. You’re more of a credit to your faith than most Muslims on these boards.

Great post LilyM!

 

[inJESUS]

salaam Joseph, i won’t reply to your posts coz i’m finished with this mindet, no offence. If you know arabic tell me please.thx

 

[inJESUS]

Fr_Chuck:

No of course this is not a Catholic Teachings, but this is a good example that the Quaran was written by taking various religious teachings from the other religions of the area. There were break away Chrsitian groups with false teachings in that area that was taken over. so thier false teachings got included into the Quran as did other religous teachings.

Basicly a good example of how it was man written not inspired.

well if you read the nazaritic heretical teachings, you find them in quran; the quran is a great historical book about the heretical teachings in 7th century arabia.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam Semper Fi;
Yes, the Church never claimed that mary is God and Yes, Catholics do not believe that Mary is God. The Qur’an says god and not God. Believing someone is a god is believing he has attributes not common to human being and I showed through the statements made by the Church leaders that Mary was not considered as a normal being, but she is believed to have far reaching powers.

Here is a link which I hope will help understand the Islamic position.

Salaam.
Joseph.

God is not a mere god - God is God. Your definition is quite large enough to allow mere saints to be counted as gods - but that is not what Christians mean by the notion of Godhead.​

God is altogether incomparable, and no created thing can possibly be compared with God. Certainly this includes Mary, because she is a creature, and is therefore in no sense to be thought equal with her God & Creator. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Justice2006:

Ms. Lily,
You can believe whatever you like. But that does not change what in fact Jesus did, said. and preached.

First there is no clear and reliable record of what in fact Jesus preached. What you have in your hands, is writtien by mostly UNKNOWN writers. Then, whatever you have recieved/discovered so far, is not a complete record of those mostly UNKNOWN writers of your scriptures.

The internal evidence shows that lot of information about Jesus is missing:

Gospel According to Saint John
Chapter 2:25

25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Then there were so many other gospels in circulation prior to 4th century canonization of so-called 3 synoptics and one non-synoptic gospel.

Then you or your Church understanding of verses Luke 19:26-28, is not what it appeared from the text. You/your church is reading your own thoughts into the text of Luke to accomodate a pre-conceived idea/dogma/view.

And you can be sure that the Koran approved by the Caliph Omar represented all of, and only, what is in the Heavenly Koran, precisely how ? We trust that God can look after what He has inspired.​

No Muslim poster has explained which NT texts are corrupt, or why. All there has been, is wishful thinking about what it would have been convenient to Muslims for the NT authors to have written - but of discussion of the details of the NT text, there has been nothing, beyond mere unsupported assertion

To say that not everything known about Jesus was written, is a thousand miles from saying that what was written, was completely lost to the Church, and from saying that what survives in the NT text is nothing like what Jesus said. ##