Suspect Mass

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The_Cavalier

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So I attended Mass today, and I must admit there were some elements of the liturgy that were super sketch.

Problem 1: The Readings
(1) There are two readings for Pentecost: one for the vigil mass in the evening and another for Mass during the day.

(2) I attended a Vigil Mass.

(3) The priest used the readings for Mass during the day, not the ones for the Vigil.

Problem 2: The Veni Sancte Spiritus

(1) This hymn is supposed to be sung before the Gospel.

(2) The priest at the Vigil Mass I attended skipped it entirely—no mention of it whatsoever, just blew it off like hot soup.

I know it takes a lot to invalidate a Mass. What concerns me most is Problem #1 concerning the readings. The consecration was on point, but was the Mass valid?
 
The_Cavalier said:
So I attended Mass today, and I must admit there were some elements of the liturgy that were super sketch.

Problem 1: The Readings
(1) There are two readings for Pentecost: one for the vigil mass in the evening and another for Mass during the day.

(2) I attended a Vigil Mass.

(3) The priest used the readings for Mass during the day, not the ones for the Vigil.

Problem 2: The Veni Sancte Spiritus

(1) This hymn is supposed to be sung before the Gospel.

(2) The priest at the Vigil Mass I attended skipped it entirely—no mention of it whatsoever, just blew it off like hot soup.

I know it takes a lot to invalidate a Mass. What concerns me most is Problem #1 concerning the readings. The consecration was on point, but was the Mass valid?
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The Vigil Mass readings are different than Sunday’s for Pentcost. The Mass you attended was valid and he readings were correct.

For the record they don’t print the daily readings in the Missal.
 
WT1 said:
The Vigil Mass readings are different than Sunday’s for Pentcost. The Mass you attended was valid and he readings were correct.

For the record they don’t print the daily readings in the Missal.
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I’m sorry. I should have been clearer about statement 3.

Correction: The priest used the reading for Mass during the day of Pentecost, not the ones for the **Pentecost **Vigil.

To illustrate what I’m talking about, recall Christmas mass. There are like three different readings: The Christmas Vigil, Midnight Mass, and Mass during the Day of Christmas.
 
The_Cavalier said:
I’m sorry. I should have been clearer about statement 3.

Correction: The priest used the reading for Mass during the day of Pentecost, not the ones for the **Pentecost **Vigil.

To illustrate what I’m talking about, recall Christmas mass. There are like three different readings: The Christmas Vigil, Midnight Mass, and Mass during the Day of Christmas.
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That’s allowed, still valid.
 
The_Cavalier said:
I know it takes a lot to invalidate a Mass. What concerns me most is Problem #1 concerning the readings. The consecration was on point, but was the Mass valid?
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My understanding is that the only thing that makes a Mass invalid is an improper form or improper matter. So, if the words of consecration are on point, and if the bread and wine both meet the criteria of the Church, of course the Mass is valid.

But even then we have to be careful. Again according to my understanding, Masses are not invalid per se. Masses are either licit or illicit. It is the consecration that can be valid or not.

I would encourage you to be less concerned about whether or not a particular Holy Mass happened to have been perfectly licit and perfectly in accordance with all liturgical norms. Obviously, grave abuses are one thing. But I think we have got to stop microanalyzing everything that Father does.

As someone once pointed out on these forums, an illicit Mass is Father’s problem, not ours.
 
The_Cavalier said:
So I attended Mass today, and I must admit there were some elements of the liturgy that were super sketch.
Click to expand...
Or not sketchy at all as it turns out.

The Vigil reading is an option but the presider may choose the reading for Pentecost.a

Sometimes the sequence is omitted if it is not sung.
 
1ke said:
Or not sketchy at all as it turns out.

The Vigil reading is an option but the presider may choose the reading for Pentecost.a

Sometimes the sequence is omitted if it is not sung.
Click to expand...
The sequence at Pentecost (as at Easter) is obligatory. Sadly, it’s often ignored, as it was in our parish.

In our parish the Vigils of feast are rarely, if ever, the Mass chosen for the evening Mass before the feast. I’ve never experienced the Vigil of Christmas and IIRC, the Vigil of Pentecost has been celebrated exactly once in my 18 years in this parish.
 
The_Cavalier said:
So I attended Mass today, and I must admit there were some elements of the liturgy that were super sketch.

Problem 1: The Readings
(1) There are two readings for Pentecost: one for the vigil mass in the evening and another for Mass during the day.

(2) I attended a Vigil Mass.

(3) The priest used the readings for Mass during the day, not the ones for the Vigil.

Problem 2: The Veni Sancte Spiritus

(1) This hymn is supposed to be sung before the Gospel.

(2) The priest at the Vigil Mass I attended skipped it entirely—no mention of it whatsoever, just blew it off like hot soup.

I know it takes a lot to invalidate a Mass. What concerns me most is Problem #1 concerning the readings. The consecration was on point, but was the Mass valid?
Click to expand...
The consecration was “on point?” Really? Why was that your focus during this most solemn and profound part of the Mass? Why do you trust your priest so little? Has he given you reason to doubt him before?
 
Tarpeian_Rock said:
The consecration was “on point?” Really? Why was that your focus during this most solemn and profound part of the Mass? Why do you trust your priest so little? Has he given you reason to doubt him before?
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Good point. The seems to be an alarming and growing number of posts that make me think rather than enjoying the opportunity of celebrating the Mass some are instead critiquing it…makes me wonder if some have a validity checklist they mark off during Mass, have a scorecard, or have placards with numbers to hold up during the Mass to give scores for technique or skill after each part of the Mass.🤷
 
The_Cavalier said:
I’m sorry. I should have been clearer about statement 3.

Correction: The priest used the reading for Mass during the day of Pentecost, not the ones for the **Pentecost **Vigil.

To illustrate what I’m talking about, recall Christmas mass. There are like three different readings: The Christmas Vigil, Midnight Mass, and Mass during the Day of Christmas.
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There are 4 Christmas Masses: The Vigil, the Mass During the Night, the Mass at Dawn, and the Mass during the Day.

It’s clear in our Lectionary that any of the readings may be chosen, regardless of which Mass is celebrated.

I would venture to say that there are many people who have never experienced the Vigil of Christmas Mass since in many parishes the priest will use the Mass During the Night to celebrate any Christmas Eve evening Mass.
 
Neofight said:
Good point. The seems to be an alarming and growing number of posts that make me think rather than enjoying the opportunity of celebrating the Mass some are instead critiquing it…makes me wonder if some have a validity checklist they mark off during Mass, have a scorecard, or have placards with numbers to hold up during the Mass to give scores for technique or skill after each part of the Mass.🤷
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I dunno - one doesn’t have to be “keeping score” to notice something is off during the consecration. The difference will stick out like a sore thumb simply because it is not what the ears are accustomed to hearing.
 
Neofight said:
Good point. The seems to be an alarming and growing number of posts that make me think rather than enjoying the opportunity of celebrating the Mass some are instead critiquing it…makes me wonder if some have a validity checklist they mark off during Mass, have a scorecard, or have placards with numbers to hold up during the Mass to give scores for technique or skill after each part of the Mass.🤷
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Agree, are they really that upset? If you have a question, ASK THE PRIEST right after the mass! Our priest actually takes the time to explain the readings and why they are being used.
 
Phemie said:
The sequence at Pentecost (as at Easter) is obligatory. Sadly, it’s often ignored, as it was in our parish.

In our parish the Vigils of feast are rarely, if ever, the Mass chosen for the evening Mass before the feast. I’ve never experienced the Vigil of Christmas and IIRC, the Vigil of Pentecost has been celebrated exactly once in my 18 years in this parish.
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I don’t believe it is obligatory at the Vigil. I could be mistaken.
 
Most Masses I’ve been to over the course of my life have skipped the Sequence. It was done today, quite beautifully, before the Gospel. I only remember that because the woman who sang the Sequence barely caught her breath before the Alleluia started, and I thought, “That’s a lot of singing for one person…” 🙂
 
We usually have a full-blown Pentecost Vigil Mass complete with all the Old Testament Lessons, the Epistle, Sequence and Gospel. The thing that makes it kind of dry is that there aren’t Responsorial Psalms or prayers between the readings like at the Easter Vigil.
 
But it doesn’t sound like what was celebrated in the OP’s parish was the Vigil of Pentecost but rather the Mass of Pentecost as was the case in my parish.
 
Phemie said:
But it doesn’t sound like what was celebrated in the OP’s parish was the Vigil of Pentecost but rather the Mass of Pentecost as was the case in my parish.
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The Pentecost readings can be used at the vigil. It was the vigil by virtue of being the evening before. It is a true vigil. The sequence is not required. There are choices for readings. There are even extended readings like at the Easter Vigil that are optional.
 
Phemie said:
But it doesn’t sound like what was celebrated in the OP’s parish was the Vigil of Pentecost but rather the Mass of Pentecost as was the case in my parish.
Click to expand...
Looking at my (French) Roman Missal, it is licit to celebrate the Mass of the day on the prior evening of Pentecost just like an anticipated Sunday Mass. The actual Vigil is optional and is intended to also include the long OT lessons; in the abbey it takes the place of the Office of Vigils (readings) for Pentecost. It sounds like the OP thus attended an evening celebration of the Mass for Pentecost day, which is licit, or it may have been the Vigil with the readings from the Mass of the day.

For the true Vigil Mass, the sequence is not sung, it is not even given as an option in the Graduale Romanum. For the Mass of Pentecost during the day, the sequence is not optional, it is mandatory.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, it is quite probable that with these rather unusual rubrics the pastor was confused or misread them and made a mistake, or it was the Vigil Mass in which there is no sequence (and not supposed to have the sequence), with the readings from the Mass of the day substituted for good reasons.
 
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