Sustainable development and Population Reduction

  • Thread starter Thread starter rpp
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Is defending the “sinfulness” of artificial contraception so important to you that it justifies this untold suffering on the part of innocent children?
Up to this point, I do not recall anyone mentioning artificial contraception.

You said that you were working on moral means to accomplish population reduction. Artificial contraception is seriously immoral therefore it cannot be one of the methods you can promote. If you are a Catholic theologian, as you claim to be, you know this.

You cannot do evil even if your intent is to avoid a perceived greater evil. Evil is always evil and can never be justified.
 
Up to this point, I do not recall anyone mentioning artificial contraception.

You said that you were working on moral means to accomplish population reduction. Artificial contraception is seriously immoral therefore it cannot be one of the methods you can promote. If you are a Catholic theologian, as you claim to be, you know this.

You cannot do evil even if your intent is to avoid a perceived greater evil. Evil is always evil and can never be justified.
A theologian with such a lack of faith!!! (Petrus) 😦 God said He would provide. we are to be good stewards of what He provides.
 
Petrus - perhaps you should volunteer to give up your share of resources.
Indeed – I live as sustainably as possible. Two children, one Honda Civic (no SUV!), biking to work and school, largely vegetarian diet, home gardening, simple clothes, total precylcing and recycling, volunteering for church and local groups.

And you?
 
Indeed – I live as sustainably as possible. Two children, one Honda Civic (no SUV!), biking to work and school, largely vegetarian diet, home gardening, simple clothes, total precylcing and recycling, volunteering for church and local groups.

And you?
Being sarcastic, I meant giving your own life up.
 
Up to this point, I do not recall anyone mentioning artificial contraception.

You said that you were working on moral means to accomplish population reduction. Artificial contraception is seriously immoral therefore it cannot be one of the methods you can promote. If you are a Catholic theologian, as you claim to be, you know this.

You cannot do evil even if your intent is to avoid a perceived greater evil. Evil is always evil and can never be justified.
That is the point, right? Population control basically views people as the problem. The starting point is gravely flawed.
 
Artificial contraception is seriously immoral …
Buffalo, I’ve heard other people argue this, but I’ve never seen a convincing theological argument for why it is immoral. Oh, I know the usual claptrap from well-fed celibate male clerics, but when deciding it was “immoral” they didn’t consult Sub-Saharan teenage girls forced to have unprotected sex with men infected by AIDS. They didn’t consult Guatemalan women desperately hoping not to get pregnant for the thirteenth time. Women should have had an equal say in the construction of this silly prohibition, but no, for you that would chip away at the foundations of the male-only ecclesiastical hierarchy, wouldn’t it? That won’t do at all – we cannot give women a voice in their church or its construction of theology

Show me a convincing warrant in biology, biblical theology, or philosophy for why using condoms is illegitimately artificial but a women charting her fertility cycle with a thermometer is not illegitimately artificial. I’m waiting…
 
Buffalo, I’ve heard other people argue this, but I’ve never seen a convincing theological argument for why it is immoral. Oh, I know the usual claptrap from well-fed celibate male clerics,
So, truth is determined by whether one is celibate or not?
but when deciding it was “immoral” they didn’t consult Sub-Saharan teenage girls forced to have unprotected sex with men infected by AIDS.
Protection from an unjust aggressor is not contraception.
They didn’t consult Guatemalan women desperately hoping not to get pregnant for the thirteenth time. Women should have had an equal say in the construction of this silly prohibition, but no, for you that would chip away at the foundations of the male-only ecclesiastical hierarchy, wouldn’t it? That won’t do at all – we cannot give women a voice in their church or its construction of theology
Have we not moved beyond the 1960s rhetoric?
Show me a convincing warrant in biology, biblical theology, or philosophy for why using condoms is illegitimately artificial but a women charting her fertility cycle with a thermometer is not illegitimately artificial. I’m waiting…
It is not artificial as you use the term. If you want to refute Church teaching please present the teaching accurately before constructing your opposing view.
 
The well-off nations should quit ripping them off. People in poor countries with no pensions or social security have more children because children are a net asset and a great investment - after a few years they work to support the family including their parents in their old age. It is only in rich countries that children are a net financial drain on their parents.
Is it really our fault that they have no pensions or social security? That said, it **is **our fault that we have social security, which is neither social, nor security.

The fact is, we are not ripping off poor countries, we are, indeed, helping them. We support families in poorer countries by buying the goods they make, which feeds them, houses them, clothes them, and gives them a sense of pride that they can help themselves. It also gives them dignity, for it is certainly better than lining up for rice gruel and a jug of water from some UN agency.Granted, they could make more money and work in better conditions, but we don’t really control that. The corporations that manufacture the goods do. But wages and housing costs differ, even in our own country. A person’s salaray for a particular job on the West Coast gets more than someone in Georgia doing the same job, and 1500 sq ft townhouses in the Bay Area cost as much as a 5000 sq ft detached home in Georgia.
 
Being sarcastic, I meant giving your own life up.
No, Buffalo – suicide is not required! Population can be brought down to sustainable post-fossil fuel levels by 2100 if the average family size is reduced. It won’t solve all problems, of course, as we will still have to retrofit our agriculture to do without chemical fertilizers, which come largely from natural gas. A lot of work is being done on Amish farms as models of high-yield sustainability, but of course these depend on loads of children. And we will have to retrofit our lifestyle as suburbia becomes more difficult to inhabit without cheap petroleum. Life in the northern Midwest will become different when heating oil costs overwhelm family budgets; life in the arid southwest will become challenging when electricity to run air conditioners becomes too costly. New and safer nuclear power plants could become a significant factor, but here is huge social opposition to that which would need to be overcome.

It’s an interesting challenge. The introduction of oil in 1859 allowed the human population to swell from one billion to 6.6 billion today, and I suspect that when the oil wells dry up over the course of the next generation the population will crash back to near or slightly above the pre-oil level. It’s up to us to decide whether we want to engineer a soft landing, or let nature take its draconian course. Morally I prefer the former.
 
Buffalo, I’ve heard other people argue this, but I’ve never seen a convincing theological argument for why it is immoral. Oh, I know the usual claptrap from well-fed celibate male clerics, but when deciding it was “immoral” they didn’t consult Sub-Saharan teenage girls forced to have unprotected sex with men infected by AIDS. They didn’t consult Guatemalan women desperately hoping not to get pregnant for the thirteenth time. Women should have had an equal say in the construction of this silly prohibition, but no, for you that would chip away at the foundations of the male-only ecclesiastical hierarchy, wouldn’t it? That won’t do at all – we cannot give women a voice in their church or its construction of theology

Show me a convincing warrant in biology, biblical theology, or philosophy for why using condoms is illegitimately artificial but a women charting her fertility cycle with a thermometer is not illegitimately artificial. I’m waiting…
These examples you give are ad hominum. Even if you are an HIV-positive sub-saharan rapist you should not be using contraception. Evil does not justify more evil. Is this the best you can do? Mock Church leaders with discredited, silly and childish notions?

Just because YOU want to view your spouse as a an object of your personal sexual gratification, rather than fully committing and giving yourself, does mean that what you are doing is not inherently evil. Just because you reject the consistent and infallible moral teachings of the Church does mean you are correct. You are not the pope.

So the bottom line here is that you are claiming people are the problem. While you think killing them is evil, you prefer to turn people into sterile sex objects capable of nothing else other than consuming resources and as a tool for the sexual gratification of others.

As for NFP, while that has been argued thousands of times here, here is an analogy. It is not my analogy, but it works. If you want grandmother’s inhertiance, your choice is to kill her or wait for her to pass way naturally. Contraception is killing grandma. NFP, because it requires a modicum of self control, is like waiting for grandma to pass away naturally. One is a serious crime, the other is natural.

Those who promote or defend contraception do so because they have no sexual self control.

You also lied when stated you wanted to use moral means to reduce population. Contraception is seriously immoral.

That you for clearing that up your position. We can now more fully see your moral as well as theological credibility. A “theologian” who rejects Catholic teachings and prmotes gross immorality. Thank you for clearing that up.
 
To me, denying the limitations of the planet to indefinitatly support human population growth is akin to declaring the Earth is flat.

Any biologist can tell you that when a species reaches a certain population density or mass, the checks and balances of nature will begin to work to bring things back in balance. Human ingenuity can stave that off only so long, similar to the levies in New Orleans. Eventually the infrastructure that sustains us will collapse, there’s no doubt in my mind.
When you put a population in a flood plane, a low-lying area that’s subject to hurricanes, or in canyons where the underbrush gets tinder-dry before being struck by lightning (or the ever present cigarette butt), you can expect disaster. This is not a problem of density or mass, but of placement. The fact is, we’re not so tightly packed that we need to live in the delta of Louisiana, or the hills of Malibu. People go to live in those places because they’re pretty. And I’m not disparaging those people, I am a New Orleans native.
 
Look at Japan. What will happen to them when they can’t get food shipped to them? They can in no way feed themselves any more. What will happen when the United States gets filled up? Argentina? All the food producing nations? Around here farms are being snapped up and turned into housing developments. Where will we get our food?
Japan will learn to catch more fish, like they did 400-500 years ago, though it will be on a larger scale. The US fill up? Not happening-have you seen the southwest? Even California has loads of space, though the population centers are crowded. It really is only the cities that are crowded, even in Japan.
 
Roslyn, you’re absolutely on target here. The New York Times noted last year that with global warming melting the Himalayan Glaciers, the stability of the water supply in six major rivers that sustain three billion people – the Yalu, the Yangtse, the Brahmaputra, the Irrawaddy, the Indus and the Ganges – will disappear. There are already a billion and a half people with no access to safe drinking water.
Ah, the man-made global warming myth…There is no question that the globe is warming but it has warmed and cooled before, and is not as warm today as it was some centuries ago, before there were any automobiles and before there was as much burning of fossil fuels as today. Human activities have very little effect on the climate, compared to many other factors, from volcanoes to clouds.
Those who think global warming is a natural process point to the fact that in the last 10,000 years, the warmest periods have happened well before humans started to produce large amounts of carbon dioxide.

A detailed look at recent climate change reveals that the temperature rose prior to 1940 but unexpectedly dropped in the post-war economic boom, when carbon dioxide emissions rose dramatically.

The final nail in the coffin of human-produced greenhouse gas theories is the fact that carbon dioxide is produced in far larger quantities by many natural means: human emissions are miniscule in comparison. Volcanic emissions and carbon dioxide from animals, bacteria, decaying vegetation and the ocean outweigh our own production several times over.
The global population increases by a net one million every four days, augmenting the number of people without adequate resources. It will be made worse over this century as rising sea levels begin to inundate coastlines, with 130 million Bangladeshis forced to migrate out of there delta into land already more than fully occupied by Indians. But the people who attack you on this forum are (I suspect) among the invincibly ignorant: nothing that anyone can say about the population explosion, global warming, dropping aquifers, declining supplies of fossil fuels, etc…, will convince them; they don’t read the papers.
If you look at the data, the only places that are growing rapidly in population are…non-Christian countries. This suggests that education into the Christian way of life may help stem the population growth. Global warming itself is true, the suggestion that it’s all because of humans is not. Declining supplies of fossil fuels suggests we find another source of fuel…nuclear (but oh no! not in my back yard!) and solar.
They have already made up their minds that humans alone count, that God made the world exclusively as a stage for human salvation, that only Catholics can be saved, that evolution is a lie – these are medieval assumptions.
Humans are insignificant as a cause of global warming. God did make the earth as a home for humanity. That doesn’t mean to waste our resources (in fact, we’re called to conserve). And, as a Catholic, you should know that the Church teaches neither that only Catholics can be saved, nor that evolution is a lie.
This brings us to a theological impasse, since those of us who work in the service of the church and wit the rest of the world to protect the future of both humanity and intact ecosystems will never agree to return to the medieval world view.
In this context, it is theologically indefensible – I would even say immoral – for the church to continue promoting its obsolete opposition to so-called “artificial” birth control. Keep up your good work and clear thinking!
Ah, so you want to follow some of God’s laws, but not all of them. Note-God’s laws, not the Church’s. Placing an artificial barrier between sperm and egg makes it artificial. And wrong. Taking a pill that makes the environment inhospitible for the fertilized egg is artificial. And wrong. Aborting a live fetus is artificial. And wrong. All of these violate the commandment not to murder.
 
Roslyn, you’re absolutely on target here. The New York Times noted last year that with global warming melting the Himalayan Glaciers, the stability of the water supply in six major rivers that sustain three billion people – the Yalu, the Yangtse, the Brahmaputra, the Irrawaddy, the Indus and the Ganges – will disappear. There are already a billion and a half people with no access to safe drinking water.

The global population increases by a net one million every four days, augmenting the number of people without adequate resources. It will be made worse over this century as rising sea levels begin to inundate coastlines, with 130 million Bangladeshis forced to migrate out of there delta into land already more than fully occupied by Indians. But the people who attack you on this forum are (I suspect) among the invincibly ignorant: nothing that anyone can say about the population explosion, global warming, dropping aquifers, declining supplies of fossil fuels, etc…, will convince them; they don’t read the papers. They have already made up their minds that humans alone count, that God made the world exclusively as a stage for human salvation, that only Catholics can be saved, that evolution is a lie – these are medieval assumptions. This brings us to a theological impasse, since those of us who work in the service of the church and wit the rest of the world to protect the future of both humanity and intact ecosystems will never agree to return to the medieval world view.

In this context, it is theologically indefensible – I would even say immoral – for the church to continue promoting its obsolete opposition to so-called “artificial” birth control. Keep up your good work and clear thinking!

Petrus
Ah…This post clears things up a bit. Tell me, will you be endorsing the ‘organic’ birth control pills and condoms? After all, it’s all about the environment.😉

If you don’t want children don’t have sex.🤷
 
Buffalo, I’ve heard other people argue this, but I’ve never seen a convincing theological argument for why it is immoral. Oh, I know the usual claptrap from well-fed celibate male clerics, but when deciding it was “immoral” they didn’t consult Sub-Saharan teenage girls forced to have unprotected sex with men infected by AIDS. They didn’t consult Guatemalan women desperately hoping not to get pregnant for the thirteenth time. Women should have had an equal say in the construction of this silly prohibition, but no, for you that would chip away at the foundations of the male-only ecclesiastical hierarchy, wouldn’t it? That won’t do at all – we cannot give women a voice in their church or its construction of theology

Show me a convincing warrant in biology, biblical theology, or philosophy for why using condoms is illegitimately artificial but a women charting her fertility cycle with a thermometer is not illegitimately artificial. I’m waiting…
God said it. I believe it. You should, too.
 
No, Buffalo – suicide is not required! Population can be brought down to sustainable post-fossil fuel levels by 2100 if the average family size is reduced. It won’t solve all problems, of course, as we will still have to retrofit our agriculture to do without chemical fertilizers, which come largely from natural gas. A lot of work is being done on Amish farms as models of high-yield sustainability, but of course these depend on loads of children. And we will have to retrofit our lifestyle as suburbia becomes more difficult to inhabit without cheap petroleum. Life in the northern Midwest will become different when heating oil costs overwhelm family budgets; life in the arid southwest will become challenging when electricity to run air conditioners becomes too costly. New and safer nuclear power plants could become a significant factor, but here is huge social opposition to that which would need to be overcome.

It’s an interesting challenge. The introduction of oil in 1859 allowed the human population to swell from one billion to 6.6 billion today, and I suspect that when the oil wells dry up over the course of the next generation the population will crash back to near or slightly above the pre-oil level. It’s up to us to decide whether we want to engineer a soft landing, or let nature take its draconian course. Morally I prefer the former.
How are we going to reduce birthrates?
 
Buffalo, I’ve heard other people argue this, but I’ve never seen a convincing theological argument for why it is immoral. Oh, I know the usual claptrap from well-fed celibate male clerics, but when deciding it was “immoral” they didn’t consult Sub-Saharan teenage girls forced to have unprotected sex with men infected by AIDS. They didn’t consult Guatemalan women desperately hoping not to get pregnant for the thirteenth time. Women should have had an equal say in the construction of this silly prohibition, but no, for you that would chip away at the foundations of the male-only ecclesiastical hierarchy, wouldn’t it? That won’t do at all – we cannot give women a voice in their church or its construction of theology
Please, tell us how you really feel. I wonder what your thoughts are for female priests?

Those ‘well fed celibate male clerics’ you speak so disparagingly about are actually celibate for God and therefore, in turn, for you.
Show me a convincing warrant in biology, biblical theology, or philosophy for why using condoms is illegitimately artificial but a women charting her fertility cycle with a thermometer is not illegitimately artificial. I’m waiting…
There is no ‘convincing warrant’ for you. You are already convinced you are right and have closed your mind.😦
 
Who came up with this “sustainable” baloney?

Reminds me of those pundits from the 1970’s who were saying we were about to run out of natural resources. Club of Rome. And a bunch of other extremists who have NEVER been confronted with having to explain how wrong they were.

[unreal]
 
There would have to be a lot of people in the rest of the world to farm and distribute the food and water, so then not all the people would be in Texas!
I wasn’t advocating that the whole rest of the world move to Texas, I was just answering an earlier post about the need for food and water.

The whole point of the “everyone in the world could fit comfortably in an area the size of Texas” observation is to refute the notion that the world is overpopulated. What we have is not a population problem, but a distribution problem. Of course, if everyone moved to Texas, we still wouldn’t have a population problem, we’d just have a (different) distribution problem.

No matter how you slice it, a population of 6 billion people and an earth land surface area of 57,500,000 sq. mi. only amounts to fewer than 105 people per square mile.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top