Sustainable development and Population Reduction

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Good question. If they can put in place the requisite solar, nuclear, tidal, wind and geothermal installations – while there yet remains enough petroleum to fuel the manufacturing, transportation, digging, equipment installation – this would be good.

Water will be an equally crucial element in ensuring Asian sustainability, since as global warming increases the Himalayan glaciers that feed the six major rivers of the region will shrink dramatically, increasing seasonal droughts.

Petrus sum
What China is doing is expanding its influence in oil producing nations around the world, including Africa.

And they ARE going for more coal burning energy sources and more nuclear-power. But solar and wind aren’t going to amount to much – maybe 1% – in comparison with nuke and fossil fuels. That’s just the inexorable facts of life.
 
But solar and wind aren’t going to amount to much – maybe 1% – in comparison with nuke and fossil fuels. That’s just the inexorable facts of life.
So, China and the rest of the world will have to make up the 99% energy equivalent of the diminishing oil with something other than nuclear and renewables as we slip down the back side of Hubbert’s curve.

Petrus
 
As we slip down the back side of Hubbert’s curve.Petrus
Oil nearing $110 per barrel? $4.00 gasoline by next summer? It seems we’re starting down the shady side of Hubbert’s Peak already. And yet, astonishingly, Hummers continue to sell!
 
So, China and the rest of the world will have to make up the 99% energy equivalent of the diminishing oil with something other than nuclear and renewables as we slip down the back side of Hubbert’s curve.
The US has coal reserves of about 500 million tons; our annual use is a little over 1 million tons … and why do we have to use something other than nuclear energy?

Ender
 
The US has coal reserves of about 500 million tons; our annual use is a little over 1 million tons … and why do we have to use something other than nuclear energy? Ender
Coal is a major contributor to global warming and consequent sea level rise.
 
Coal is a major contributor to global warming and consequent sea level rise.
It is worthwhile to review all of the arguments pro and con regarding global warming. There are quite a few arguments against the notion of anthropogenic global warming.

This topic has been debated on CAF with numerous references posted that anyone interested in the topic must check out if they consider themselves either scientists or interested in science.

In any event, visit this recent post / thread on CAF:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=197050
 
Coal is a major contributor to global warming and consequent sea level rise.
You need to decide what point you want to debate. I was responding to your contention that we’re running out of oil and what needs to be done because of it; global warming was not part of that discussion. If you’re worried about global warming then you ought to support nuclear energy but you appear to reject that as well.

Given that the US has several hundred years of coal reserves and oil shale reserves reported to be three times larger than the oil reserves in Saudi Arabia I’m not sure I see where the supply problem is.

Ender
 
You need to decide what point you want to debate. I was responding to your contention that we’re running out of oil and what needs to be done because of it; global warming was not part of that discussion. If you’re worried about global warming then you ought to support nuclear energy but you appear to reject that as well.

Given that the US has several hundred years of coal reserves and oil shale reserves reported to be three times larger than the oil reserves in Saudi Arabia I’m not sure I see where the supply problem is.

Ender
I do support nuclear energy; it may be the only thing that keeps us alive, as I don’t see shale oil and tar sand being able to make up the difference once the easy oil is gone. And the “several hundred years” depends on how great the human population is that is drawing upon those reserves. Greater population shortens the life of that resource. In any case, human have to think about the long future: with a century of uranium and three centuries of coal, that still leaves human civilization without a longterm plan.

Petrus
 
We should be focused on sustainable development but we should not be focused on population reduction. There is no way to reduce the population without using birth control of some kind which makes population reduction an evil. The world is far from overpopulated. We just need to learn how to distribute our resources better. Also, we need to teach developing countries sustainable agriculture.

See here about the myth of overpopulation:

nccbuscc.org/prolife/programs/rlp//03ruse.shtml
 
Holly, wake up and smell the coffee!

Petrus
No Holly is right on the mark. We’re Catholics here. Catholic hold that children are a gift from God, and no human action can force God to create a new being. This is different from God allowing an evil to happen, as a new person is a deliberate, willful act of God. It is something He** actively **chooses to make happen.

Therefore, by definition, there are no more people on Earth than God desires there to be. In fact, due to sins like abortion, there are actually significatly FEWER people on Earth than God desires there to be.

So no, the world is NOT overpopulated.
 
So no, the world is NOT overpopulated.
Brendan, I’m Catholic too. Do you mean it could never in principle be overpopulated? Could the earth support one trillion humans?

And, Holly, population reduction can be achieved by reaching replacement-rate families, and without contraception. In my kids’ Catholic school, the average family size is two, and I know of no one who uses artificial contraception.

Prayerfyully yours,
Petrus
 
Brendan, I’m Catholic too. Do you mean it could never in principle be overpopulated? Could the earth support one trillion humans?
Yes, because God would be the one who put them on the Earth. Who am I to try and tell God that He has created to many Images and Likeness of Himself?

We humans can, through sin, create FEWER people on Earth than God desires, but we can never create MORE people than God desires.

We can reject the gift of children, but we can never, ever, force Him to offer that gift.
And, Holly, population reduction can be achieved by reaching replacement-rate families, and without contraception. In my kids’ Catholic school, the average family size is two, and I know of no one who uses artificial contraception.
Prayerfyully yours,
Petrus
That’s nice. On the other hand, we’ve recieved 5 children as gifts from God, and we are very much hoping for several more. ( I’ve got almost 100 first cousins myself, so it kinda runs in the family). My wife’s best friend had her 10th child one day after we had our 5th, and my best friend is the oldest of 11.

I’m not so much concerned with having a ‘replacement rate’ family as populating Heaven with as many Saints as I can, which is pretty much how God looks at families as well.

So all these ‘replacement rate’ familes are welcome to sit back and watch us populate the world, and God willing, Heaven 👍
 
Didn’t anyone mention that massive epidemics arise from time to time and put a dent in the world’s population? Take for instance The Black Plague of the middle ages and the Influenza of 1918? We’re overdue for an epidemic and bacteria and viruses are developing resistant strains. So I wouldn’t be too worried about overpopulation yet , I would be worried about emerging diseases that we don’t have control over yet.
 
I’m not sure everybody in the world would agree its not over populated but underpopulated. We cannot or choose not to feed, clothe, house, educate, employ, and treat a significant number of them, so I would question that we should be breeding like rabbits to use up more of our diminishing resources.

I’m not sure I ever really understood this Catholic directive to give birth often. Most of the large Catholic families I knew from my childhood were not so very happy. The financial burden was miserable, none of their kids could go to college, and NONE of the kids ever had more than one or two themselves. They didn’t find it such a happy childhood.

I also am not clear about the argument that if God wants it differently, he’d change it. There is the well worn story told in a variety of ways, wherein the moral of the story is…God expects you to do you part too. To dirty up his world seems pretty rude on our part.
 
I’m not sure I ever really understood this Catholic directive to give birth often. Most of the large Catholic families I knew from my childhood were not so very happy. The financial burden was miserable, none of their kids could go to college, and NONE of the kids ever had more than one or two themselves. They didn’t find it such a happy childhood.
Really, did you ask any of the older ones which younger sibling they would have traded for a new bike, or a color TV.

I grew up in a large family, and my parents were also parts of large families. Did we have everything that my friends had, no, but I had more than they did…more family.

And yes, we all went to college, out of the 6 of us, all four boys are engineers, and my two sisters are a Pediatrician and a Lawyer respectfully ( and yes, the boys helped pay for our sister’s educations. That’s what family does.
I also am not clear about the argument that if God wants it differently, he’d change it. There is the well worn story told in a variety of ways, wherein the moral of the story is…God expects you to do you part too. To dirty up his world seems pretty rude on our part.
The key here is that a Soul cannot be created by us, God has to do it. This is a bit different from other goods or evils that God simply permits. God HAS to be actively involved in the creation of new life, because He is the one who actually MAKES the new life, the husband and wife merely co-operate with Him.

So yes, God can wish otherwise, all He has to do is chose NOT to make a new person, we can’t force Him in any way in this matter. We can only reject what He has chosen to create.
 
I also am not clear about the argument that if God wants it differently, he’d change it. There is the well worn story told in a variety of ways, wherein the moral of the story is…God expects you to do you part too. To dirty up his world seems pretty rude on our part.
SpiritMeadow, I wonder whether it is time to retire the saying “be fruitful and multiply.” That may have been an important cultural admonition for a small people struggling to survive amongst its politically stronger rivals in 1000 BCE, in a relatively underpopulated world. Whether it still has the same survival value at the end of oil is questionable. I am far less optimistic than some that we can avoid the death of billions over the next century, from resource wars, famines, and mass migrations. Bringing yet more people into the world – at the net increase rate of a million every four days – is a recipe for disaster. This Catholic (and many others) regards that prospect as a grave moral problem. Check out worldometers.info/.
 
SpiritMeadow, I wonder whether it is time to retire the saying “be fruitful and multiply.” That may have been an important cultural admonition for a small people struggling to survive amongst its politically stronger rivals in 1000 BCE, in a relatively underpopulated world. Whether it still has the same survival value at the end of oil is questionable. I am far less optimistic than some that we can avoid the death of billions over the next century, from resource wars, famines, and mass migrations. Bringing yet more people into the world – at the net increase rate of a million every four days – is a recipe for disaster. This Catholic (and many others) regards that prospect as a grave moral problem. Check out worldometers.info/.
“Be fruitful and multiply”, isn’t a saying, or a cultural admonition. Procreation is how a husband, wife and God share in the ongoing miracle of God’s creation, and help build the kingdom of God. It is a command of God Himself. It’s not a “saying” we can retire. :eek:
 
“Be fruitful and multiply”, isn’t a saying, or a cultural admonition. Procreation is how a husband, wife and God share in the ongoing miracle of God’s creation, and help build the kingdom of God. It is a command of God Himself. It’s not a “saying” we can retire. :eek:
Sure it is. The command is to have some children to carry on the species and to participate responsibly in God’s creation, not to breed like rabbits.
 
Sure it is. The command is to have some children to carry on the species and to participate responsibly in God’s creation, not to breed like rabbits.
We don’t breed like rabbits. We allow God to bring live and wonder into our families and to fill heaven with sweet sweet song.
 
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