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drpmjhess
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OK, let me rephrase that: rabbits that breeds like Catholics before long see their population trimmed by natural constraints. No animal can breed exponentially forever – it’s a simple question of mathematics.
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Cathryn
Guest
No, having children, as many as God gifts us with, is not like breeding like rabbits. We shouldn’t limit the number of steward’s of God’s creation. Some of them may even have brilliant ideas about ways to wisely use the resources God has provided.
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drpmjhess
Guest
I love children, have two Catholic sons, and work with lots of other children. That children have brilliant ideas doesn’t change the mathematical facts of exponential growth. Only a madman or an economist believes the human population can grow infinitely on a finite planet.
Petrus
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Cathryn
Guest
There isn’t going to be infinite growth if we believe what Jesus promised regarding His return and last judgement and resurrection of the body. God knows what He is doing. Every person born is a steward of creation. We need to value every human being. Can’t have too much of the image and likeness of God on earth.
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bankerdavid
Guest
No, you should wake up and see your God. He can do anything he wants-to an individual (as in Moses), to a select group (as in Israel), or even to you.
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bankerdavid
Guest
The fact is that the earth is overpopulated in some places, such as Tokyo, Bejing, New York. But people who live there choose to live there. Very few are forced. You are right that we are to help those who cannot help themselves.
I don’t see that the Church has ever said to breed like rabbis, er rabbits, nor to have so many children that they cannot have a decent life. The church does say thou shalt not contracept, but to use your brain as a sex organ when it comes to making babies.
Of course we should take care of our home planet. Even most conservatives want to really conserve. We should cherish and enhance the earth God gave us.
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drpmjhess
Guest
Well, it’s been 2,000 years already with no sign yet. At this rate we’ll be at 9 billion by 2050…
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Brendan
Guest
So?
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Brendan
Guest
Do you honestly think that humans have that authority? Don’t you think that it would be up to God to ‘retire’ the Bible, not us?
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PapaSquash
Guest
Oh, there have been signs.
Widespread lack of faith in Divine Providence.
Questioning the word of God
Maybe the current popular usage, by people uncomfortable with the Lord’s sovereignty, of referring to dates as “CE” or Common Era, Instead of “AD” or Anno Domini is one small sign of the final slide.
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drpmjhess
Guest
I said nothing about retiring the Bible. I said that certain sayings can be outdated, like this one, and like the prohibition of wearing cloth woven of two different fabrics.
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drpmjhess
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People saw the same signs as the year 1000 approached. They saw them in the fourteenth century, with the Black Death, the Hundred Years War, etc. They saw them during the Wars of Religion. There will probably always be an apocalyptic strain among human beings, as each millennium approaches, and as each major ecological or political or resource crisis forces us into an emotional tailspin. Think what the turn of 10,000 will bring! Think what the asteroid of 2037 might bring!
Petrus
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
Well how do you decide these things? There are commands by God throughout the OT. We don’t follow a huge number of them anymore because we see them for what they are, admonitions for specific problems at specific times. Much as Paul must be read with his specific audience in mind and what he was attempting to do regarding them.“Be fruitful and multiply”, isn’t a saying, or a cultural admonition. Procreation is how a husband, wife and God share in the ongoing miracle of God’s creation, and help build the kingdom of God. It is a command of God Himself. It’s not a “saying” we can retire.
We don’t follow dietary laws by and large any more. We don’t follow some of the punishment orders any more. I guess as always it comes down to the usual disagreements we always have had and I guess always will have.
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Brendan
Guest
The Ceremonial Law was retired by Christ, not by humans. But Gen 1:22 is part of the Moral Law, which was never ‘retired’. We don’t have the authority to ‘retire’ anything is Divine Revelation, only God does.
If Christ personally lets you know that He wants to retire Gen 1:22, make sure to let the Pope know.
But until then, it will remain part of Catholic teachings.
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djrakowski
Guest
Wow… in one page of this relatively long thread, I’ve learned that my wife and I are most likely raising unhappy children who are not likely to attend college, that we’re dirtying the planet because we’re breeding like rabbits, and that the world would be a better place if the Church would just get with the times and do away with the divine commandment to “be fruitful and multiply.”
This is the kind of talk I expect out of secular humanists, not Catholics, so I must admit, I’m somewhat stunned. Have you so quickly forgotten about what God inspired the psalmist to write about children?
Psalm 127:3-5 (NAB) - Children too are a gift from the LORD, the fruit of the womb, a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children born in one’s youth. Blessed are they whose quivers are full. They will never be shamed contending with foes at the gate.
I’m thankful Our Lord has chosen to offer us these 4 precious gifts, and again, stunned that others would refer to them as contributing to the dirtying of our planet.
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Brendan
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Christ Himself removed several of the Levitican ceremonial and dietary laws, if you read the Bible, you will see that those laws did not always exist, Abraham and Noah, for example, could wear whatever fabric they desired, or eat what they willed.
But the Moral Law has always remained.
And man, by himself, could not even remove the ceremonial law, but it fell to Christ to do that. He personally told Peter that he could eat unclean animals and the uncleanliness only came from inside. He removed the stoneing for adultery, with the adulerous woman and the Pharisees.
But Christ never removed the command that has existed as long as mankind has, to be fruitful and multiply. Christ is the only one who can do that, the Church cannot, no human cannot.
So unless we hear from Christ Himself on the subject, the command remains and no human can change that.
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Cathryn
Guest
From the Encyclical Letter Mater et Magistra of Pope John XXIII, May 15, 1961
( … ) RESPECT FOR THE LAWS OF LIFE
We must solemnly proclaim that human life is transmitted by means of the family, the family founded on marriage, one and indissoluble, raised for Christians to the dignity of a Sacrament. The transmission of human life is entrusted by nature to a personal and conscious act, and, as such, subject to the all-wise laws of God: laws inviolable and immutable that are to be recognized and observed. Therefore, it is not permissible to use means and follow methods that can be licit for the transmission of plant or animal life.
Human life is sacred: from its very inception, the creative action of God is directly operative. By violating His laws, the Divine Majesty is offended, the individuals themselves and humanity degraded, and likewise the community itself of which they are members is enfeebled. ( … )
( … ) RESPECT FOR THE LAWS OF LIFE
We must solemnly proclaim that human life is transmitted by means of the family, the family founded on marriage, one and indissoluble, raised for Christians to the dignity of a Sacrament. The transmission of human life is entrusted by nature to a personal and conscious act, and, as such, subject to the all-wise laws of God: laws inviolable and immutable that are to be recognized and observed. Therefore, it is not permissible to use means and follow methods that can be licit for the transmission of plant or animal life.
Human life is sacred: from its very inception, the creative action of God is directly operative. By violating His laws, the Divine Majesty is offended, the individuals themselves and humanity degraded, and likewise the community itself of which they are members is enfeebled. ( … )
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PapaSquash
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Exactly. There have been signs that Jesus will return… It’s the reading of them and timing that is problematic. But I can’t agree with your statement in post 165 that is has been “2000 years and no sign yet.” The apocalyptic tendency itself may be taken as an indication that we are ordered toward a world that won’t last forever. The most obvious sign is that God made the promise in Scripture.
And as you point out, the evidence of history is that most predictions of doom and gloom have been overstated. Or stated by people who stand to profit from the particular approach to averting the doom and gloom that is being presented.
You can fall out of the boat on either the right or the left.
Fr. John Corapi
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Trader
Guest
Noah had unloaded the Ark and commanded each pair of animals to “Go forth and multiply”. But when he checked to see if the ark was empty, he found two little snakes huddled in a dark corner. He spoke to the snakes and said, “Little snakes, little snakes, didn’t you hear my command to go forth and multiply?” To which the snakes answered, “We can’t, we’re adders.”“Be fruitful and multiply”, isn’t a saying, or a cultural admonition. Procreation is how a husband, wife and God share in the ongoing miracle of God’s creation, and help build the kingdom of God. It is a command of God Himself. It’s not a “saying” we can retire.
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drpmjhess
Guest
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