Sustainable development and Population Reduction

[Brendan]

worldometers.info/.

Thank you for that wonderful reminder of how many new souls God is populating the world with

It’s is heartening to see so many couples accepting the Gift from God that is a new child, a new Image and Likeness of God Himself

And I will pray for the souls who departed today, that they be accepted into the Communion of Saints.

 

[drpmjhess]

Thank you for that wonderful reminder of how many new souls God is populating the world with

And I will pray for the souls who departed today, that they be accepted into the Communion of Saints.

Let us rejoice then that God will be receiving billions more souls in the next century as the end of oil makes their continued terrestrial existence impossible.

Actually, we should revise that to tens of millions, as I’ve been assured on the thread “when is the last time you heard a sermon about hell?” that only 5-6% go to heaven.

 

[Brendan]

Let us rejoice then that God will be receiving billions more souls in the next century as the end of oil makes their continued terrestrial existence impossible.

“I Can Do All Things in Him That Strengthens Me” Philippians 4:13.

Actually, we should revise that to tens of millions, as I’ve been assured on the thread “when is the last time you heard a sermon about hell?” that only 5-6% go to heaven.

Everyone that makes it is so pleasing to God that He would have created the entire Universe just to bring that one to Him. And, in creating our Universe, he brings uncounted numbers to Him.

You have to remember the reason that God created us, to know Him, love Him and serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him in the next.

Every person that God creates, He creates for that purpose: To grow in knowledge and love of Him here, so that we can be with Him in Heaven.

That is what we need to focus on, not how many people God creates, (He knows better than we do), rather we need to focus on what we can do to a live our lives so that we are among those who make it through the narrow gate, and b bring the Gospel to others, so that too may be granted Heaven.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Actually, we should revise that to tens of millions, as I’ve been assured on the thread “when is the last time you heard a sermon about hell?” that only 5-6% go to heaven.

Whoever said that gave a quite baseless figure. God is an awesome and merciful God…and the scriptures say that the “great crowd” is BEYOND NUMBER. No one knows how many will be saved…so putting ANY kind of figure on it is ridiculous.

 

[Greg27]

There is a lot of debate about the ecological problems we face and how to deal with them. Some proposed solutions, such as radical ante-natal policies (i.e. widespread abortion and contraception) would not be acceptable from an Orthodox Catholic perspective, and also radically lowering the birth-rate below replacement level, as many developed nations have found out, creates grave economic and social problems (rapid population ageing, shrinking workforce, requirement for very high levels of immigration, stagnating economies and innovation, problems with funding pensions, healthcare, education and other services reliant on taxes), so this is not a realistic or good solution to the problem of population.

I think an important factor in the ecological problems is not just the number of people, but the fact our modern economic way of life puts great strains on the planet’s environment and resources. Despite much progress, the capitalist economy as it is now structured in its global form consumes vast amounts of natural resources and generates a lot of waste and pollution, especially as developing countries try to emulate the Western consumer lifestyle. Seeing the world as a limitless resource which can be used and exploited to no limit is certainly in my view just as responsible for the global environmental problems as much as overpopulation.

In the next century, better methods of using the planet’s resources and living a life of reasonable quality will be needed. I don’t think retreating into apocalyptic fantasy about Christ magically coming to save us will help, instead something more like Hildegard of Bingen’s vision will be required; respecting the creation as God’s beloved work of art, and doing our best to be responsible stewards of it and co-creators made in God’s image.

 

[drpmjhess]

Greg27, you are right – the twin pillars of the current crisis are (1) over consumption and (2) overpopulatoin. In the indefinite future, earth could support either a much smaller population living at our level of affluence (food, luxuries, travel) or a large population at a subsistence level. We can’t do both indefinitely.

Petrus

I think an important factor in the ecological problems is not just the number of people, but the fact our modern economic way of life puts great strains on the planet’s environment and resources. Despite much progress, the capitalist economy as it is now structured in its global form consumes vast amounts of natural resources and generates a lot of waste and pollution, especially as developing countries try to emulate the Western consumer lifestyle. Seeing the world as a limitless resource which can be used and exploited to no limit is certainly in my view just as responsible for the global environmental problems as much as overpopulation.

 

[Ender]

Greg27, you are right – the twin pillars of the current crisis are (1) over consumption and (2) overpopulatoin.

I would say that the current “crisis” is over nothing.

In the indefinite future, earth could support either a much smaller population living at our level of affluence (food, luxuries, travel) or a large population at a subsistence level. We can’t do both indefinitely.

I think we can easily do both, and into the indefinite future. The earth can probably support double its current population with considerably less poverty; the problem is not too many people but too few countries with viable forms of government.

Two percent of the US grow so much food we have to pay people not to plant more. I once read that an Italian rice farmer grew 200 times as much in the same acreage as an Ethiopian rice farmer. That’s the difference between modern farming and practices that haven’t changed since the middle ages. People living in third world poverty cut down all the trees for fuel and eat all the animals for food. If you’re concerned about the environment then the best way to save it is to help the third world modernize, not limiting their access to energy and progress.

Ender

 

[drpmjhess]

I would say that the current “crisis” is over nothing. I think we can easily do both, and into the indefinite future. The earth can probably support double its current population with considerably less poverty; the problem is not too many people but too few countries with viable forms of government.

I wouldn’t call it “nothing” with two million children per year dying form lack of fresh water and from water-borne diseases. All animal species are subject to the limits of the natural carrying capacity, and humanity is no exception. The reason we haven’t lost more to starvation is that the population is propped up by fossil-fuel fertilizers. When this is removed – as it will be in the next generation – the population will begin its crash back toward the natural carrying capacity. Unless we reduce population through voluntary family size limitation. It’s our choice. I’m for saving our children and grandchildren.

 

[PapaSquash]

… the population will begin its crash back toward the natural carrying capacity. Unless we reduce population through voluntary family size limitation. It’s our choice. I’m for saving our children and grandchildren.

You propose to destroy the next generation in order to save it?

 

[drpmjhess]

You propose to destroy the next generation in order to save it?

No, of course not.

 

[Ender]

I wouldn’t call it “nothing” with two million children per year dying form lack of fresh water and from water-borne diseases.

Just in the past two weeks I saw a presentation given by some women who had traveled to parts of Africa to help the local population and they showed the conditions the people live in: children filling water jugs from muddy pools and lugging it home. The consequences are as you describe, but in a few lucky villages they were resolved when wells were dug and hand pumps installed. This is my point: it often doesn’t take much to alleviate the squalor in which people live.

The reason we haven’t lost more to starvation is that the population is propped up by fossil-fuel fertilizers. When this is removed – as it will be in the next generation

Your Malthusian pessimism is baseless.

Unless we reduce population through voluntary family size limitation. It’s our choice. I’m for saving our children and grandchildren.

Actually you are for saving some children and grandchildren by getting others to forgo having them.

Ender

 

[drpmjhess]

Your Malthusian pessimism is baseless. Actually you are for saving some children and grandchildren by getting others to forgo having them.Ender

Do you understand how modern agriculture works, and how it is so productive? It is based on chemical fertilizers derived from finite fossil fuels. When the fossil fuels are gone, agricultural productivity will revert to the annual (name removed by moderator)ut from the sun. That’s not baseless Malthusian pessimism – it’s realism. See Eating fossil fuels – fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html.

And I’m for saving all future children, by not producing so many now that their descendants will be crowding for dwindling food supplies.

Petrus

 

[Al_Masetti]

Well … I suppose we could all revert to foraging for berries. Maybe some dandelion greens.

Those are natural and require no fertilizer.

Quit chlorinating our water. [Did you know that the “greens” actually had a campaign to abolish chlorine. Forgetting momentarily that chlorine is part of the periodic table of elements. {you do know what the periodic table of elements is, right?} Anyway, one country actually DID abolish chlorinating their water. Peru. Ended up with a nasty outbreak of a disease - cholera - that killed thousands.]

Start using horses for our daily transport. *

So, maybe we SHOULD “tolerate” unsustainable development … until human ingenuity and inventiveness and inspiration by the Holy Spirit run dry.

[Thinks: what kind of person came up with this “baloney” of “sustainability”, anyway.]*

 

[Mimi]

This topic is related to a thread I just started:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8621012#post8621012

There is more at stake here than just getting people to live more frugally.

Also, posters here may be interested in the documentary, Demographic Winter, available at www.amazon.com :
amazon.com/Demographic-Winter/dp/B001CGD1P2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322332735&sr=8-1

Peace,
Mimi