Swearing in Creative Writing

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Think of some of the great movie scenes and then purge them of swearing.

Joe Pesci And Robert De nero in Casino. Or Goodfellas.
Or any Tarantino film. (some of the best dialogue in the business in HISTORY)
How about Nicholson, Dicaprio, and Damon, Sheen, and Baldwin in The Departed?

Just wating for someone, anyone to write those scenes better.

Yippie Kay yay Mr Falcon.

 

[edwest2]

Think of some of the great movie scenes and then purge them of swearing.

Joe Pesci And Robert De nero in Casino. Or Goodfellas.
Or any Tarantino film. (some of the best dialogue in the business in HISTORY)
How about Nicholson, Dicaprio, and Damon, Sheen, and Baldwin in The Departed?

Just wating for someone, anyone to write those scenes better.

Yippie Kay yay Mr Falcon.

Tarantino? Seriously?

Ed

 

[truetofaith]

Think of some of the great movie scenes and then purge them of swearing.

Joe Pesci And Robert De nero in Casino. Or Goodfellas.
Or any Tarantino film. (some of the best dialogue in the business in HISTORY)
How about Nicholson, Dicaprio, and Damon, Sheen, and Baldwin in The Departed?

Just wating for someone, anyone to write those scenes better.

Yippie Kay yay Mr Falcon.

Goodfellas was bad but Casino was just overkill…I’m sure these films could have been effective without all the obscenity.

Over the years, we have been de-sensitized to what we hear on the radio, tv, & read in books. Even the news has been using filthy words.

America needs its mouth washed out with soap!!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Tarantino? Seriously?

Ed

Sure.

He is one of my favorite directors and screenplay writers. I know that he is not everyone’s cup of tea. I read a very interesting piece about how he chooses characters based on the very specific delivery of his dialogue. Which is why he can never work with some people who he would love to work with. He is probably the most talented writer I can think of in the movie industry who is still making movies. (though he only has two left)

I would put Kill Bill 1&2 up there with even The Passion. Though that was not written by Tarantino. And to be sure neither is known for it’s dialogue.

If you can stomach the gore and language and spoof of a genre of horror films. “Death Proof” is so quintessential Tarantino with some of the dialogue. He is the master of taking mundane, idiotic small talk between friends and making it into a masterful dialogue and delivery.
As an aside.

I went to high school with his cousin. We had English class together. Lets just say his writing is not genetic…

 

[iamcatholic100]

Thanks for sharing, even if you are late to the party.

I don’t necessarily disagree about it not being immoral (hey, that’s four negatives in one sentence ). For me, though, I have never quite understood the argument that using foul language lends to authenticity. Maybe it’s just because I’m averse to using the words myself in everyday speech, but I have never been writing something such that I felt that using an expletive was the only (or even the best) word choice. Nor have I thought while watching a movie or reading a book that it would really be more authentic if there was some profanity peppered in. That could just be me, though.

Your welcome.

I sometimes feel the same way as you do regarding this topic. Sometimes, when I’m watching a certain movie or reading a certain story, even though its technically within the context of the characters, setting and circumstance, the cussing feels forced and can be very distracting. It would have been better if the characters didn’t cuss at all.

From another poster who provided it:

“But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening?” [James 3:8-11]

---

When I was growing up, I was told not to use bad words, and they remain bad. I’m going over a manuscript right now for publication and I’m marking and cutting out profanity and inappropriate and gratuitous situations as they regard the dignity of the human person.

Ed

I think that verse refers to actual cursing, meaning to invoke harm, injury or misfortune to another person. But again, it could also indirectly refer to any sin and imperfection that comes from the tongue, like lying, complaining, bragging, anger, rash judgement, gossiping, calumny, slander, detraction. blasphemy, using God’s name in vain, cussing, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Again, this is a very grey area. Everyone has there opinion regarding this and everyone’s brains are wired differently, and I respect that.

 

[edwest2]

Goodfellas was bad but Casino was just overkill…I’m sure these films could have been effective without all the obscenity.

Over the years, we have been de-sensitized to what we hear on the radio, tv, & read in books. Even the news has been using filthy words.

America needs its mouth washed out with soap!!

American media needs this very much, followed by some of the people who are desensitized on a case by case basis. Meanwhile, my friends - don’t buy it, watch it, hear it or read it. I use only one or two news sources and usually only scan headlines, followed by research at reliable, no swearing, information sites regarding topics I want to know more about.

Ed

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Goodfellas was bad but Casino was just overkill…I’m sure these films could have been effective without all the obscenity.

Over the years, we have been de-sensitized to what we hear on the radio, tv, & read in books. Even the news has been using filthy words.

America needs its mouth washed out with soap!!

Ah the question is who drives the bus?

Does the writing of those films reflect the reality or does the reality follow the films.

No, they would not have been as effective. Take any scene in those films. Run if by the cable sensor. then, watch the real scene. It is extremely more powerful. But ok, go ahead, show a rewrite that has been better than the original.

yes we do need our mouth washed out with soap. There is a family show called The Middle and it uses God’s name in vain all the time. Constantly. It makes me sick and there is no reason for it. But sometimes there are reasons to swear and to write that into the art. Especially if you wish to be authentic.
Where would NWA have been if not for the “real words” they used… Should that have gone mainstream to every suburban teenager’s ears? Probably not. But walk the 'hood and listen to what you hear…

Sometimes we Catholics who constantly talk of getting out into the world and getting our hands dirty do a lousy job of that. And when we actually do it, we will find that the words used are pretty accurate.

 

[edwest2]

Your welcome.

I sometimes feel the same way as you do regarding this topic. Sometimes, when I’m watching a certain movie or reading a certain story, even though its technically within the context of the characters, setting and circumstance, the cussing feels forced and can be very distracting. It would have been better if the characters didn’t cuss at all.

I think that verse refers to actual cursing, meaning to invoke harm, injury or misfortune to another person. But again, it could also indirectly refer to any sin and imperfection that comes from the tongue, like lying, complaining, bragging, anger, rash judgement, gossiping, calumny, slander, detraction. blasphemy, using God’s name in vain, cussing, etc. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Again, this is a very grey area. Everyone has there opinion regarding this and everyone’s brains are wired differently, and I respect that.

I can’t respect that approach. There is censorship going on in Hollywood right now. I go somewhere and hear “bleep” coming out a TV. What do I see? A comedian telling jokes with profanity and the people doing the bleeping know exactly which words to bleep out. In a more recent example, the mouth area was distorted so people could not see the lips and accurately identify the bleeped out words.

It’s very black and white.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

Ah the question is who drives the bus?

Does the writing of those films reflect the reality or does the reality follow the films.

No, they would not have been as effective. Take any scene in those films. Run if by the cable sensor. then, watch the real scene. It is extremely more powerful. But ok, go ahead, show a rewrite that has been better than the original.

yes we do need our mouth washed out with soap. There is a family show called The Middle and it uses God’s name in vain all the time. Constantly. It makes me sick and there is no reason for it. But sometimes there are reasons to swear and to write that into the art. Especially if you wish to be authentic.
Where would NWA have been if not for the “real words” they used… Should that have gone mainstream to every suburban teenager’s ears? Probably not. But walk the 'hood and listen to what you hear…

Sometimes we Catholics who constantly talk of getting out into the world and getting our hands dirty do a lousy job of that. And when we actually do it, we will find that the words used are pretty accurate.

I come from the 'hood. I know the words. They should never, ever be promoted as “entertainment.” Trust me. I watched Detroit go downhill and lived there most of my life. One of my black friends was a former gangbanger. I saw it. I heard it. And no - that is society regressing into “I got a sweet ride, itches and hs and I’ll pop a cap into anyone’s *** if they dis me or my homies.” Bad… very bad.

And when we lose respect for human dignity, others are just less valuable as human beings worthy of respect. Poverty, drive-by shootings, AK-47s, selling illegal drugs. That’s not living. Bored young men get involved in black on black shootings.

I’ve gone to the “bad” parts of town. I can feel the way an area is. If I don’t mess with anyone, I can go where I want. I know just by watching, who’s doing what and I’ve helped the poor in those areas. I’m not afraid of them.

Ed

 

[truetofaith]

I can’t respect that approach. There is censorship going on in Hollywood right now. I go somewhere and hear “bleep” coming out a TV. What do I see? A comedian telling jokes with profanity and the people doing the bleeping know exactly which words to bleep out. In a more recent example, the mouth area was distorted so people could not see the lips and accurately identify the bleeped out words.

It’s very black and white.

Ed

On the news they bleep out all the bad words & sometimes there’s not enough left to know what the statement was.

 

[edwest2]

On the news they bleep out all the bad words & sometimes there’s not enough left to know what the statement was.

All TV stations used to have a Standards and Practices department. If they can’t rewrite what they’re saying, that’s their mistake. I stay away from TV news. I scan text headlines, then go to other, no swearing sites, to get more information. I don’t want to hear about a few minutes of news followed by sports and weather. I don’t care to hear what celebrities are doing.

Ed

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I come from the 'hood. I know the words. They should never, ever be promoted as “entertainment.” Trust me. I watched Detroit go downhill and lived there most of my life. One of my black friends was a former gangbanger. I saw it. I heard it. And no - that is society regressing into “I got a sweet ride, itches and hs and I’ll pop a cap into anyone’s *** if they dis me or my homies.” Bad… very bad.

And when we lose respect for human dignity, others are just less valuable as human beings worthy of respect. Poverty, drive-by shootings, AK-47s, selling illegal drugs. That’s not living. Bored young men get involved in black on black shootings.

I’ve gone to the “bad” parts of town. I can feel the way an area is. If I don’t mess with anyone, I can go where I want. I know just by watching, who’s doing what and I’ve helped the poor in those areas. I’m not afraid of them.

Ed

If we should use them or If we should write them to convey the truth in art are two different questions.

Art has always been like this. Even the great writers of the past. Shakespeare wrote vulgar for his time, Twain has some pretty choice and shocking words. Dickens was a master of using cockney to creatively write. And he used some choice words that would have been the “Tarantino” Or go further back to Dante. Who wrote specifically to shock and rile the people.

I am of the mind that Les Mis, both the book and the play would be lessened if they were censored so as not to use fowl language and vulgar characters.

 

[edwest2]

If we should use them or If we should write them to convey the truth in art are two different questions.

Art has always been like this. Even the great writers of the past. Shakespeare wrote vulgar for his time, Twain has some pretty choice and shocking words. Dickens was a master of using cockney to creatively write. And he used some choice words that would have been the “Tarantino” Or go further back to Dante. Who wrote specifically to shock and rile the people.

I am of the mind that Les Mis, both the book and the play would be lessened if they were censored so as not to use fowl language and vulgar characters.

I think “art” is the wrong word to use, or the word “authentic.” The fact is, for Catholics at least, there are defined bad words which should not be used, at all. Art has no claim on truth. In fact, too much “fine art” is distorted or unintelligible. In fact, according to one line of thought, students are told their art should offend people.

Politeness, civility, especially regarding total strangers in real life, are the good we can do. Not yelling “Hey, Mu*** F****!” to someone across the street.

We are better human beings when we imitate Christ.

Ed

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think “art” is the wrong word to use, or the word “authentic.” The fact is, for Catholics at least, there are defined bad words which should not be used, at all. Art has no claim on truth. In fact, too much “fine art” is distorted or unintelligible. In fact, according to one line of thought, students are told their art should offend people.

Politeness, civility, especially regarding total strangers in real life, are the good we can do. Not yelling “Hey, Mu*** F****!” to someone across the street.

We are better human beings when we imitate Christ.

Ed

Again, I agree in principle for every day use. But creative writing is indeed artful. And an art form. And to be authentic sometimes you have to write the phrase you wrote. Because life and art must imitate each other.

A good example of this is a very Catholic movie. The Exorcist. There are vile things said in this movie by a child no less. But the movie, as an art form, needed to convey a certain Truth. In reading accounts of real exorcisms things like this may be common.

I have a friend who attempts to help workers escape the sex trade. His life is full of things that are vile. And if any form of artwork “creative writing” attempted to tell his stories so that we don’t have to experience them they would include vile subjects and words.

If one has a problem with writing those words then one could choose a different subject. but if you were to write a story about the 'hood in detroit and the gang activity there, and you did not include vulgar language in your depiction of your gang character, well your story would not be as good as it could be. Because it would not be authentic.

If we bow to vulgarity standards of the age we would not have the great works we have had in the history of art, and writing.

 

[edwest2]

Again, I agree in principle for every day use. But creative writing is indeed artful. And an art form. And to be authentic sometimes you have to write the phrase you wrote. Because life and art must imitate each other.

A good example of this is a very Catholic movie. The Exorcist. There are vile things said in this movie by a child no less. But the movie, as an art form, needed to convey a certain Truth. In reading accounts of real exorcisms things like this may be common.

I have a friend who attempts to help workers escape the sex trade. His life is full of things that are vile. And if any form of artwork “creative writing” attempted to tell his stories so that we don’t have to experience them they would include vile subjects and words.

If one has a problem with writing those words then one could choose a different subject. but if you were to write a story about the 'hood in detroit and the gang activity there, and you did not include vulgar language in your depiction of your gang character, well your story would not be as good as it could be. Because it would not be authentic.

If we bow to vulgarity standards of the age we would not have the great works we have had in the history of art, and writing.

“life and art must imitate each other”? Who issued that decree? I have just finished a manuscript I will review a final time for content - appropriate content. Right now, I’m thinking a few scenes will get toned down. That is the main thing I do for a living, the secondary thing I do is study media daily, at work and on my own time.

Over the last 40 years, and this can be easily demonstrated, the volume has been turned up on:

Profanity
Nudity
Simulated sex
Blood and gore.

Those are all facts. Is there a link between us spending hours watching such stuff and its having an effect on the way we think? Absolutely. No doubt about it.

People in general don’t get the fact that every time they indulge in this “entertainment,” they’ve allowed a little poison to enter, to the point where they stop caring.

If someone wants to do a documentary on the Pimp and Prostitution Trade - by all means, but call it that. Don’t call it “entertainment” and don’t hide it under false terminology that masks what it is. The “sex trade.” Just like the military, who disguises death and injury with words like “casualties.” How many times does the TV news refer to auto fatalities as “there were 20 auto-related casualties over the weekend.”?

I don’t go to movies marketed as entertainment to learn from. Otherwise, the term Entertainment Industry is a lie.

If I spend hours viewing immoral sex and cohabitation as totally neutral things, I’ve shut off my sin detector. Seriously. When people thought, “they would never show that on TV” - there it is a while later. Because all the ‘creative freedom’ and ‘pushing the envelope’ all led to the things I’ve listed above.

There are peer reviewed journals and expensive, highly technical books about all kinds of authentic things but you won’t see them on bookstore shelves. I have one about STDs, with graphic photos that show the characteristics of any given disease. Trust me, there’s nothing erotic or exciting about the photos - quite the opposite. The details are highly technical, just the facts, and then next.

Sure, movies and books in the past alluded to certain things but what? Some unknown individual created a rule about “art” that all must follow? All the evidence I have shows “art” is designed to influence the public in a negative way. All the evidence points to one thing that is being taught through “Art”: Sin, shame, and guilt don’t mean anything.

That has to end.

Ed

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

“life and art must imitate each other”? Who issued that decree? I have just finished a manuscript I will review a final time for content - appropriate content. Right now, I’m thinking a few scenes will get toned down. That is the main thing I do for a living, the secondary thing I do is study media daily, at work and on my own time.

Over the last 40 years, and this can be easily demonstrated, the volume has been turned up on:

Profanity
Nudity
Simulated sex
Blood and gore.

Those are all facts. Is there a link between us spending hours watching such stuff and its having an effect on the way we think? Absolutely. No doubt about it.

People in general don’t get the fact that every time they indulge in this “entertainment,” they’ve allowed a little poison to enter, to the point where they stop caring.

If someone wants to do a documentary on the Pimp and Prostitution Trade - by all means, but call it that. Don’t call it “entertainment” and don’t hide it under false terminology that masks what it is. The “sex trade.” Just like the military, who disguises death and injury with words like “casualties.” How many times does the TV news refer to auto fatalities as “there were 20 auto-related casualties over the weekend.”?

I don’t go to movies marketed as entertainment to learn from. Otherwise, the term Entertainment Industry is a lie.

If I spend hours viewing immoral sex and cohabitation as totally neutral things, I’ve shut off my sin detector. Seriously. When people thought, “they would never show that on TV” - there it is a while later. Because all the ‘creative freedom’ and ‘pushing the envelope’ all led to the things I’ve listed above.

There are peer reviewed journals and expensive, highly technical books about all kinds of authentic things but you won’t see them on bookstore shelves. I have one about STDs, with graphic photos that show the characteristics of any given disease. Trust me, there’s nothing erotic or exciting about the photos - quite the opposite. The details are highly technical, just the facts, and then next.

Sure, movies and books in the past alluded to certain things but what? Some unknown individual created a rule about “art” that all must follow? All the evidence I have shows “art” is designed to influence the public in a negative way. All the evidence points to one thing that is being taught through “Art”: Sin, shame, and guilt don’t mean anything.

That has to end.

Ed

I support your view and encourage you to be a voice of morality in an increasingly immoral world. But the idea that this has to end is pie in the sky type of thinking. Do I wish things were more wholesome? Of course! And some things are downright sick. And they should be stopped. But I fear we are coming to a time in the not too distant future where voicing morality will be deemed more offensive than profanity. Perhaps we are already there. But I have no problem saying that there is a lot of trash out there as well as a lot of good art that some may be offended by or that depicts reality. The Passion of the Christ was probably the most violent thing I have been exposed to in my life. It also has moved many to faith.

 

[edwest2]

I support your view and encourage you to be a voice of morality in an increasingly immoral world. But the idea that this has to end is pie in the sky type of thinking. Do I wish things were more wholesome? Of course! And some things are downright sick. And they should be stopped. But I fear we are coming to a time in the not too distant future where voicing morality will be deemed more offensive than profanity. Perhaps we are already there. But I have no problem saying that there is a lot of trash out there as well as a lot of good art that some may be offended by or that depicts reality. The Passion of the Christ was probably the most violent thing I have been exposed to in my life. It also has moved many to faith.

My company is not already there. I’ve read my history about the atheist Bolsheviks. The man who wrote the book made things quite clear, and he survived. Hope and truth survive even if individuals are criminalized. Our mission is to be ‘family friendly.’

Ed

 

[iamcatholic100]

I can’t respect that approach. There is censorship going on in Hollywood right now. I go somewhere and hear “bleep” coming out a TV. What do I see? A comedian telling jokes with profanity and the people doing the bleeping know exactly which words to bleep out. In a more recent example, the mouth area was distorted so people could not see the lips and accurately identify the bleeped out words.

It’s very black and white.

Ed

I agree with you on that, to a certain degree. I find some of the censorship on TV, specifically on some cable channels, to be very hypocritical. Meaning that they might bleep out expletives, racial slurs, nudity, some violence, etc, but they leave Jesus Christ’ s name and GD unbleepled, which are far worse than any expletive on the planet. Just saying.

 

[BornInMarch]

Intention is key when portraying things like this in writing (at least in my opinion).

I personally think swearing is ok if it is to show that a character is rough-cut (that’s where the term “Swear like a sailor” comes from), if it is to convey emotional responses (a man who found out that his childhood friend raped his wife might declare his intentions to “kill that ****ing bastard!”), if it is historically accurate (try including Patton’s speech to the Third Army without using a swear word … yeah, didn’t think so), or if it is to show that a character has bad manners.

Likewise, even violence is ok if it is to evoke feelings of horror, panic, to establish that a character is the bad guy, or to show that hard decisions sometimes have to be made. Just be sure not to glorify it: show the hero either being bothered by the people he had to kill or otherwise reflecting that he should be bothered.

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

A “damn” or a “hell” is mild, and I don’t mind that. Anything else is far worse. And to think that Hollywood once had to sit and wonder if they should or shouldn’t have Rhett Butler in “Gone With The Wind” say that famous last line… Oh, what a difference from now