Swimming Across the Tiber -- The First of Many Peculiar Situations

[Chris258]

For most of my undergraduate career, I’ve been a Protestant just taking step after step into the Christian faith. Nearly all of my Christian development was within the community of Chi Alpha Christian Fellowship, an interdenominational campus group that is pretty Pentecostal Protestant in its practices, but I haven’t noticed any adamant emphasis on accepting any one theology over another.

Little did I know, my steps would take me to the shores of the Tiber, and over this summer, I’ve taken the plunge and am on my way (I plan on receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation this fall).

Given the nature of Chi Alpha, it is composed mostly of Protestants of many stripes. Some of them honestly don’t know much of anything about the Catholic Church, some of them know just enough (mixed with other non-Catholic assumptions) to be slightly suspicious about it, and a few of them seem to have some real anti-Catholic sentiment. Sadly, my best friend probably has the strongest anti-Catholic convictions of anyone I know in Chi Alpha.

This will be my last undergrad year at Tulane. I’ve decided that I’m not going to leave Chi Alpha. I want to use this great opportunity to get people more informed about the Church as well as seriously challenge those who have misinformed suspicions and anti-Catholic convictions (especially my best friend’s; I love him too much to let him continue in his misinformed disdain of the Church). I feel kinda like a spy infiltrating the non-Catholic ranks.

Here’s what I’d like advice about from some of you. I will be leading a guys’ group discussion this next year. It is somewhat similar to a Bible study, except the amount of “teaching” going on is flexible. Whenever we do look at Scripture, it’s more about just interacting with it, placing ourselves in OT Israel’s predicaments, for example, and learning how such things could be applied to our lives or other arenas, rather than trying to interpret the text to fit some pre-conceived theological mold.

I would like to use such discussions as times for exposure (explicit or implicit) to Catholic faith for those who know little about it. I’d like to hear some suggestions about exactly what topics (Biblical or non-biblical) that would be most conducive to that as well as a slight explanation of how one might outline the development of discussion. It would probably be best, at first, to refrain from imposing the blatantly “Catholic” topics like the Assumption of Mary. Anything that is (even imperfectly) shared between Catholics and Protestants would be great. I could do this alone, but you guys could help the process along quite nicely, I think.

---

Perhaps some of you feel the need to dissuade me from remaining in Chi Alpha because it could draw me away from the Church again or slow my progress toward her. I appreciate your concern, but I am quite beyond that point in my journey to the Church. G. K. Chesterton’s description of the convert’s journey is apt:

“The Catholic is scarcely ever frightened of the Protestant picture of Catholicism; but he is sometimes frightened of the Catholic picture of Catholicism… For the convert’s sake, it should also be remembered that one foolish word from inside does more harm than a hundred thousand foolish words from outside. The latter he has already learned to expect, like a blind hail or rain beating upon the Ark…”

I have never experienced the kind of satisfaction I have in journeying toward the Church; it may even be greater than when I first began walking the Christian faith. I have indeed been a little frightened of one Catholic teaching (so far) taught by the Church herself, but I am no longer frightened by any Protestant voice speaking against the Church. By the grace of God, they’ll never take this away from me, and by the grace of God, I will assent to even the Church’s frightful (that is, frightful to most of society) teachings and wrap my faith around them as time passes.

 

[CSN]

Hey, welcome, welcome !

I think what you are trying to do is fantastic. I too have just started with my efforts to expose my Presbyterian relatives to the Catholic Church.

Just be comfortable knowing that, even if you do not know an answer yourself, there is someone somewhere among the millions of brilliant minds in history who dedicated their lives in search of the truth (and who in the end agreed that the Catholic Church contained the fullness of the truth) who has a quite simple, quite logical, and quite irrefutable response to anything thrown your way.

Now, to answer your question, how about the Eucharist? About the gospel according to Matthew, Mark and Luke each saying, word for word “This is my body” in reference to the bread Jesus was holding, and the gospel according to John speaking about the crowds who said “What? How can this man give us flesh to eat?” and then abandoning Jesus when He wouldn’t take back what he said…

 

[Nan_S]

Now, to answer your question, how about the Eucharist? About the gospel according to Matthew, Mark and Luke each saying, word for word “This is my body” in reference to the bread Jesus was holding, and the gospel according to John speaking about the crowds who said “What? How can this man give us flesh to eat?” and then abandoning Jesus when He wouldn’t take back what he said…

Here’s the way that I got through to someone who wanted to take the Eucharist figuratively:

(Holding up ordinary wooden pencil) “Suppose Jesus was sitting right here and He asked you to tell Him what this was, how would you answer?”

“That’s easy. It’s a pencil.”

“OK, now what if Jesus said, no, it’s a rosebush root. Plant it in the ground, and beautiful roses will sprout. Would you disagree with Him?”

“Ummmm…”

“Or would you go outside, plant it, and water it?”

“Well, if Jesus said it was a rosebush root, I’d go plant it.”

“Even though it still looks like a pencil and writes like a pencil?”

“Yes, I would even though it still works like a pencil, because I trust Jesus.”

“And you would be right to take His word for it. Now suppose Jesus handed you a piece of bread and said, ‘This is my body’, would you tell Him, ‘You’re wrong, it’s just a piece of bread that symbolizes your body.’?”

“Ummm…”

“Jesus took the bread and the cup at the Last Supper and said, ‘This is my body; this is the cup of my blood.’ He used very explicit language. You trusted that the pencil would sprout as a rosebush. Do you trust Him with the bread and cup?”

“I never quite thought of it that way.”

 

[myredeemerlives]

Jesus also said He was a door, but I understand He was talking spiritually. I didn’t go looking for His doorhandle.

 

[InLight247]

Perhaps some of you feel the need to dissuade me from remaining in Chi Alpha because it could draw me away from the Church again or slow my progress toward her. I appreciate your concern, but I am quite beyond that point in my journey to the Church. G. K. Chesterton’s description of the convert’s journey is apt:

“The Catholic is scarcely ever frightened of the Protestant picture of Catholicism; but he is sometimes frightened of the Catholic picture of Catholicism… For the convert’s sake, it should also be remembered that one foolish word from inside does more harm than a hundred thousand foolish words from outside. The latter he has already learned to expect, like a blind hail or rain beating upon the Ark…”

I have never experienced the kind of satisfaction I have in journeying toward the Church; it may even be greater than when I first began walking the Christian faith. I have indeed been a little frightened of one Catholic teaching (so far) taught by the Church herself, but I am no longer frightened by any Protestant voice speaking against the Church. By the grace of God, they’ll never take this away from me, and by the grace of God, I will assent to even the Church’s frightful (that is, frightful to most of society) teachings and wrap my faith around them as time passes.

Welcome to the Catholic Church. I am so glad to know your decision.

For a person who genuinely seeks the truth, he will remain in the truth by God’s grace and by the nourishments of the Church. As long as you continue to grow in your Catholic faith, there is nothing wrong to remain in Chi Alpha. This gives you a chance to evangelize.

I used to join a weekly Protestant Bible study for about three years. My purpose was to bridge over the gap between the two faiths, to clear their misconception on Catholics. I got along well with that group and won their respect. I believe my purpose was achieved, at least to certain degree by the time I left that group.

Keep up your good work. God bless!

 

[Chris258]

Now, to answer your question, how about the Eucharist? About the gospel according to Matthew, Mark and Luke each saying, word for word “This is my body” in reference to the bread Jesus was holding, and the gospel according to John speaking about the crowds who said “What? How can this man give us flesh to eat?” and then abandoning Jesus when He wouldn’t take back what he said…

“Jesus took the bread and the cup at the Last Supper and said, ‘This is my body; this is the cup of my blood.’ He used very explicit language. You trusted that the pencil would sprout as a rosebush. Do you trust Him with the bread and cup?”

“I never quite thought of it that way.”

Interesting way of making your point. It would at least make someone consider that Jesus wasn’t speaking in symbolic terms.

I’ve got a great Early Church Father 3-volume reference book named The Faith of the Early Fathers edited by William Jurgens. I’m sure I could make great use of it in the discussion of the Eucharist. Not very many people in Chi Alpha I know are familiar with the early Church writings. I’m sure several of them will be surprised at how “Catholic” the early fathers’ beliefs and practices were.

Regarding the Eucharist, I think that would be a great topic. I expect there will be several viewpoints in the group, some of them accepting Real Presence, some not. I don’t think any of them believe in Transubstantiation, though. Perhaps either of you could suggest some works by early theologians? Maybe some of St. Thomas Aquinas’ works?

I used to join a weekly Protestant Bible study for about three years. My purpose was to bridge over the gap between the two faiths, to clear their misconception on Catholics. I got along well with that group and won their respect. I believe my purpose was achieved, at least to certain degree by the time I left that group.

Keep up your good work. God bless!

And you as well in your future opportunities of evangelism.

 

[Tonks40]

There’s a lot of richness in the OT that could not only be applied practically in our lives, but also to help explain the NT teaching the Church has held in the beginning. The books of Exodus and Leviticus, for example…Leviticus may be a bit mired in a lot of “legalism,” as some of your members in Chi Alpha may opine, but if you pull back from the text, you can see how much of it is renewed and fulfilled by the sacrifice on the Cross.

One of the best books I’ve read that ties in both Old and New Testaments is “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn. If you haven’t yet, read this book. It also dispels a lot of the rapture-type thought some Protestants believe in regards to the book of Revelations.

Good luck in your Bible study - and welcome home!

God Bless!

 

[allhers]

Jesus also said He was a door, but I understand He was talking spiritually. I didn’t go looking for His doorhandle.

This is exactly why Jesus founded the Church to teach us when He was speaking literally, and when He was speaking symbolically, and when He was speaking Sacramentally, etc…
That way you won’t get confused like you apparently did/ Knock and the door shall be opened.

 

[allhers]

Chris, Welcome home!! This site ought to help you, it is on this site here at Catholic Answers.
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Home

 

[JRKH]

For most of my undergraduate career, I’ve been a Protestant just taking step after step into the Christian faith. Nearly all of my Christian development was within the community of Chi Alpha Christian Fellowship, an interdenominational campus group that is pretty Pentecostal Protestant in its practices, but I haven’t noticed any adamant emphasis on accepting any one theology over another.

Little did I know, my steps would take me to the shores of the Tiber, and over this summer, I’ve taken the plunge and am on my way (I plan on receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation this fall).

Given the nature of Chi Alpha, it is composed mostly of Protestants of many stripes. Some of them honestly don’t know much of anything about the Catholic Church, some of them know just enough (mixed with other non-Catholic assumptions) to be slightly suspicious about it, and a few of them seem to have some real anti-Catholic sentiment. Sadly, my best friend probably has the strongest anti-Catholic convictions of anyone I know in Chi Alpha.

This will be my last undergrad year at Tulane. I’ve decided that I’m not going to leave Chi Alpha. I want to use this great opportunity to get people more informed about the Church as well as seriously challenge those who have misinformed suspicions and anti-Catholic convictions (especially my best friend’s; I love him too much to let him continue in his misinformed disdain of the Church). I feel kinda like a spy infiltrating the non-Catholic ranks.

Here’s what I’d like advice about from some of you. I will be leading a guys’ group discussion this next year. It is somewhat similar to a Bible study, except the amount of “teaching” going on is flexible. Whenever we do look at Scripture, it’s more about just interacting with it, placing ourselves in OT Israel’s predicaments, for example, and learning how such things could be applied to our lives or other arenas, rather than trying to interpret the text to fit some pre-conceived theological mold.

I would like to use such discussions as times for exposure (explicit or implicit) to Catholic faith for those who know little about it. I’d like to hear some suggestions about exactly what topics (Biblical or non-biblical) that would be most conducive to that as well as a slight explanation of how one might outline the development of discussion. It would probably be best, at first, to refrain from imposing the blatantly “Catholic” topics like the Assumption of Mary. Anything that is (even imperfectly) shared between Catholics and Protestants would be great. I could do this alone, but you guys could help the process along quite nicely, I think.

---

Perhaps some of you feel the need to dissuade me from remaining in Chi Alpha because it could draw me away from the Church again or slow my progress toward her. I appreciate your concern, but I am quite beyond that point in my journey to the Church. G. K. Chesterton’s description of the convert’s journey is apt:

“The Catholic is scarcely ever frightened of the Protestant picture of Catholicism; but he is sometimes frightened of the Catholic picture of Catholicism… For the convert’s sake, it should also be remembered that one foolish word from inside does more harm than a hundred thousand foolish words from outside. The latter he has already learned to expect, like a blind hail or rain beating upon the Ark…”

I have never experienced the kind of satisfaction I have in journeying toward the Church; it may even be greater than when I first began walking the Christian faith. I have indeed been a little frightened of one Catholic teaching (so far) taught by the Church herself, but I am no longer frightened by any Protestant voice speaking against the Church. By the grace of God, they’ll never take this away from me, and by the grace of God, I will assent to even the Church’s frightful (that is, frightful to most of society) teachings and wrap my faith around them as time passes.

Welcome Home and Praise God.

I haven’t read any of the responses but I think your idea is wonderful Such a group sounds like it needs you. I suspect the Holy Spirit has a Hand in this.

About the discussions next year, I was reminded of how much I like Mother Angelica’s talks where she gets to commenting on the Gospel. She can sort of get to picking on the apostles, and uses other devices to really put us in the picture. She never does it in a derogatory way but very entertaining and realistic.
If you have the opportunity to catch some of the Mother Angelica Live episodes on EWTN, I don’t believe you would be disappointed.

Peace
James

 

[packermann]

Jesus also said He was a door, but I understand He was talking spiritually. I didn’t go looking for His doorhandle.

Jesus did not go to a partcular door, touched it, pointed to it, and then said ot his disciples “This door is me.” No, instead, Jesus just said “I am the Door”, without referring to particular door.

Jesus did not go to a particular vine, touched it, pointed to it, and said “This is me”. Inrstead, Jesus just said “I am the vine”, without referring to a partcular vine.

When you are talking figurartively, you don’t refer to a particular thing, but just to something generic. You may call someone an ox, but you would not, if you at a farm, point at an ox and say to someone “You are this ox”. You may call someonr who is ugly a real dog. But you would not pick up a dog and say this dog is that person. Not unless you meant to be taken literally.

Jesus picked up particular bread, held it up, and said “THIS is my body”. This is not figurative language.

 

[Nan_S]

Interesting way of making your point. It would at least make someone consider that Jesus wasn’t speaking in symbolic terms.

My whole objective in inter-denominational dialogue is to get someone see past their pre-conceived notions and to think. I have won a major victory whenever I just open a door by a little crack and get someone to say, “Hmmm. I never considered that”.

When I get this response I know that I have gotten past “yes it is” “no it isn’t” “my pastor said so”. I have won a major victory because I have gotten the other person to concede and realize that he must agree with me.

God works at His own pace, not our pace. Some of the people whom we reach with these crack-widening moments will eventually, through their own intellect, come to the inescapable conclusion that Catholic is “real” Christianity. They make the most devoted Catholic Christian converts.

 

[Chris258]

My whole objective in inter-denominational dialogue is to get someone see past their pre-conceived notions and to think. I have won a major victory whenever I just open a door by a little crack and get someone to say, “Hmmm. I never considered that”.

Agreed. I would feel immense joy just at hearing one of my friends say that. One thing I must remember, though, is to pray for the Sword of love that cuts through misinformation and calcified understanding without doing unnecessary hurt to their hearts. The last thing I want to do is push them away with brute slash-and-burn apologetics.

God works at His own pace, not our pace. Some of the people whom we reach with these crack-widening moments will eventually, through their own intellect, come to the inescapable conclusion that Catholic is “real” Christianity. They make the most devoted Catholic Christian converts.

For once, I think I can say my tendency toward indecision was a gift from God. In my former situation, I was extremely slow to stick myself to any single theological mold in Protestantism. The only Christian apologist I ever read extensively was C. S. Lewis.

This meant that, during all those times my Catholic friend discussed points of contention with my Protestant friends (he was often the lone defender of his position ), I was free to explore, and I wanted very much to know more about the Catholic faith after listening to my friend. So my journey to the Church wasn’t really terribly hindered by any pre-conceived theological system, thanks be to God. It was like I was forever stuck at a crossroads in Protestantism, never knowing where I could go with certainty, and then I found the Catholic Church…

---

Thanks to everyone for posting.

I’ll be getting Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper suggested and I’ll be researching Transubstantiation in my spare time over the summer. And of course, I will always be able to depend on the Church fathers in defending the Real Presence. Feel free to offer more good thoughts on the Eucharist; I’m sure you guys have some good stuff.

Do you all have some good thoughts about discussing the Sacrament of Baptism with my friends?

I’m pretty sure that all of those at the discussions (except perhaps one of my friends who is Lutheran) will not view Baptism as an infusion of grace but only as an outward symbol of committment to the Christian faith.

 

[Nan_S]

Do you all have some good thoughts about discussing the Sacrament of Baptism with my friends?

I’m pretty sure that all of those at the discussions (except perhaps one of my friends who is Lutheran) will not view Baptism as an infusion of grace but only as an outward symbol of committment to the Christian faith.

Thanks for your reply. It seems that the manner I try to use was very much the one that worked for you.


You seem to know a good bit already, so I’m going to be presumptive that you know what is behind what I’m about to say. If that’s not the case, I can expand it for you.

I think I would talk about the manner of baptism first (in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with the triple application of water). Then I would be prepared to answer immersion vs. dipping vs. pouring and why Catholics recognize all as being OK. Next I would talk about the necessity of Baptism for salvation (because Jesus set the example, and told us to do it). Finally, I would be prepared to wrap the discussion by saying WHY - the infusion of grace and the eradication of Original Sin (and be ready to say that you’ll cover that topic on another day). This takes the discussion from their common ground, to the method differences, to the reason why (nearly) all churches do it, and finally to why we feel it is essential for salvation. If the discussion goes further you can bring in the infant baptism requirement by referencing Acts, the Didache and the Early Church Fathers.

Chris258:

I’ve got a great Early Church Father 3-volume reference book named The Faith of the Early Fathers edited by William Jurgens. I’m sure I could make great use of it in the discussion of the Eucharist. Not very many people in Chi Alpha I know are familiar with the early Church writings. I’m sure several of them will be surprised at how “Catholic” the early fathers’ beliefs and practices were.

You do need to research topics in these volumes, but they are a great reference. Be prepared to say, “Interesting Question, Let me get back to you tomorrow on that.”

 

[CSN]

Interesting way of making your point. It would at least make someone consider that Jesus wasn’t speaking in symbolic terms.

I’ve got a great Early Church Father 3-volume reference book named The Faith of the Early Fathers edited by William Jurgens. I’m sure I could make great use of it in the discussion of the Eucharist. Not very many people in Chi Alpha I know are familiar with the early Church writings. I’m sure several of them will be surprised at how “Catholic” the early fathers’ beliefs and practices were.

Regarding the Eucharist, I think that would be a great topic. I expect there will be several viewpoints in the group, some of them accepting Real Presence, some not. I don’t think any of them believe in Transubstantiation, though. Perhaps either of you could suggest some works by early theologians? Maybe some of St. Thomas Aquinas’ works?

And you as well in your future opportunities of evangelism.

What I have tried is the Eucharistic Miracles. All of them AB blood, and many studied scientifically - and not always by Catholic physicians.

I heard that the U.N. commissioned a study on the Miracle at Lanciano Italy in the 1970’s, and found that the tissue was human heart tissue, expertly incised.

Some may ‘pooh pooh’ miracles - perhaps pointing out that even the devil can appear as an angel of light - but Jesus himself said “If you don’t believe me, at least believe my miracles…”, and also we are supposed to discern miracles by looking at their fruits…

 

[tobbias88]

Are you strong enough for this? Be prepared to be knocked down & defeated in many arguments. Like St. Paul, your zeal is great but you may yet have to escape in a basket!

Let us know how you get on. Our prayers & best wishes go with you. Remember Newmann was one of our greatest after his ‘Tiber swim’.

 

[Matariel]

I have a suggestion-- slowly introduce them to the Early Church Fathers. It’s a way of presenting Catholic ideas, without being overtly Catholic!

 

[Nan_S]

What I have tried is the Eucharistic Miracles. All of them AB blood, and many studied scientifically - and not always by Catholic physicians.

I heard that the U.N. commissioned a study on the Miracle at Lanciano Italy in the 1970’s, and found that the tissue was human heart tissue, expertly incised.

Some may ‘pooh pooh’ miracles - perhaps pointing out that even the devil can appear as an angel of light - but Jesus himself said “If you don’t believe me, at least believe my miracles…”, and also we are supposed to discern miracles by looking at their fruits…

Have you ever taken a close look at the Shroud of Turin evidence? There’s a real miracle, preserved carefully by the Catholic Church. Many, including myself, have concluded that this is the genuine burial cloth of Jesus Christ. The blood on the shroud has been scientifically examined. It is indeed real blood, human male, type AB.

shroudstory.com/
shroud.com/