Switch back to one's old rite?

[RomanHeart]

I understand a Roman Catholic who transferred formally to an Eastern Rite would have a difficult time transferring back to RC, but if that person truly felt that they made a mistake shortly after doing so, say, within a few months, how could one switch back? I know someone who was “caught up” with an Eastern Church for a long time, and realized that aside from writing a great letter, (this person was also instructed by The Eastern Rite priest not to include ‘running away’ from The Roman Rite, so as not to be refused,) yet, this person realized that switching has made them seriously unhappy, as well as the family members who initially agreed to it. There must be some way in a case like this, or other cases where a person has reasons for erring. Any advise would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[C_Alexander]

I understand a Roman Catholic who transferred formally to an Eastern Rite would have a difficult time transferring back to RC, but if that person truly felt that they made a mistake shortly after doing so, say, within a few months, how could one switch back? I know someone who was “caught up” with an Eastern Church for a long time, and realized that aside from writing a great letter, (this person was also instructed by The Eastern Rite priest not to include ‘running away’ from The Roman Rite, so as not to be refused,) yet, this person realized that switching has made them seriously unhappy, as well as the family members who initially agreed to it. There must be some way in a case like this, or other cases where a person has reasons for erring. Any advise would be appreciated. Thank you.

An honest discussion with the Eastern bishop is probably where he should start. Out of humility, he should place himself under the bishop’s guidance, should be honest concerning everything and not just those areas he believes will get him what he now wants (to go back to the west), and should follow the bishop’s advice.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I understand a Roman Catholic who transferred formally to an Eastern Rite would have a difficult time transferring back to RC, but if that person truly felt that they made a mistake shortly after doing so, say, within a few months, how could one switch back? I know someone who was “caught up” with an Eastern Church for a long time, and realized that aside from writing a great letter, (this person was also instructed by The Eastern Rite priest not to include ‘running away’ from The Roman Rite, so as not to be refused,) yet, this person realized that switching has made them seriously unhappy, as well as the family members who initially agreed to it. There must be some way in a case like this, or other cases where a person has reasons for erring. Any advise would be appreciated. Thank you.

Start attending a RC parish as normal? I know most people would have only one chance to switch Churches in their lifetime.

 

[C_Alexander]

Start attending a RC parish as normal? I know most people would have only one chance to switch Churches in their lifetime.

How would that help this person? He is saying the person rushed into something huge and now wants to rush back out. He needs to deal with the issues that led to the problem and he needs to submit himself to someone else’s authority because he’s not making wise decisions.

The bishop might immediately grant the request after talking with him if he determines it spiritually advantageous (there isn’t some magical number of requests that are allowed), but submitting himself to that authority and having guidance in the transition would be important in a situation like RomanHeart described, especially since he said there are other family members (possibly a wife, which brings the potential for children) who will also be affected by his flip-flopping. Self-direction and abandoning what he committed to won’t help him in the long-run. Facing it and working through it with legitimate guidance would.

 

[ConstantineTG]

How would that help this person? He is saying the person rushed into something huge and now wants to rush back out. He needs to deal with the issues that led to the problem and he needs to submit himself to someone else’s authority because he’s not making wise decisions.

The bishop might immediately grant the request after talking with him if he determines it spiritually advantageous (there isn’t some magical number of requests that are allowed), but submitting himself to that authority and having guidance in the transition would be important in a situation like RomanHeart described, especially since he said there are other family members (possibly a wife, which brings the potential for children) who will also be affected by his flip-flopping. Self-direction and abandoning what he committed to won’t help him in the long-run. Facing it and working through it with legitimate guidance would.

Some people attend EC parishes without any canonical change and live as Eastern Catholics. Some Eastern Catholics attend RC parishes and live as RCs without canonical change. I’m just wondering why there is a need to change canonical enrollment again. I know there may be some issues one has regarding rules and stuff. I just consulted my Bishop today and he told me that its perfectly fine to live a life as an Eastern Catholic even without any canonical change.

 

[C_Alexander]

Some people attend EC parishes without any canonical change and live as Eastern Catholics. Some Eastern Catholics attend RC parishes and live as RCs without canonical change. I’m just wondering why there is a need to change canonical enrollment again. I know there may be some issues one has regarding rules and stuff. I just consulted my Bishop today and he told me that its perfectly fine to live a life as an Eastern Catholic even without any canonical change.

Yes, that’s perfectly true. For the situation that RomanHeart described, it wouldn’t be prudent.

 

[Vico]

Some people attend EC parishes without any canonical change and live as Eastern Catholics. Some Eastern Catholics attend RC parishes and live as RCs without canonical change. I’m just wondering why there is a need to change canonical enrollment again. I know there may be some issues one has regarding rules and stuff. I just consulted my Bishop today and he told me that its perfectly fine to live a life as an Eastern Catholic even without any canonical change.

There is some guidance in the Eastern Catholic Canons (CCEO):

CCEO Canon 12

1. The Christian faithful are bound by an obligation in their own patterns of activity always to maintain communion with the Church.
2. They are to fulfill with great diligence the duties which they owe to the universal Church and to their own Church sui iuris.

CCEO Canon 17
The Christian faithful have the** right** to worship God according to the prescriptions of their own Church sui iuris, and to follow their own form of spiritual life consonant with the teaching of the Church.

CCEO Canon 403

1. With due regard for the right and obligation to preserve everywhere their own rite, lay persons have the right to participate actively in the liturgical celebrations of any Church sui iuris whatsoever, according to the norms of the liturgical books.

 

[Aramis]

Vico: One’s canonical bishop may dispense individuals from the obligations of particular canon laws, even so far as to place one under the omophor of another bishop…

Especially CCEO Can 12 §2 and CIC Can 209 §2

CIC Can. 209 §1. The Christian faithful, even in their own manner of acting, are always obliged to maintain communion with the Church.

§2. With great diligence they are to fulfill the duties which they owe to the universal Church and the particular church to which they belong according to the prescripts of the law.

Or, in the case of parishes of another church sui iuris, to even declare them personal parishes for those with an interest in the Eastern Churches and to make their subjects in those parishes subject to that parish’s calendar and praxis. That meets the spiritual good clause, and the specificity clause, and is of sufficiently long duration as to be small-t tradition as well.

See CIC Canons 85-93 for the roman side

 

[arabic_catholic]

Thank you very much

i need to know more about the east catholics

 

[Vico]

Vico: One’s canonical bishop may dispense individuals from the obligations of particular canon laws, even so far as to place one under the omophor of another bishop…

Especially CCEO Can 12 §2 and CIC Can 209 §2
CIC Can. 209 §1. The Christian faithful, even in their own manner of acting, are always obliged to maintain communion with the Church.

§2. With great diligence they are to fulfill the duties which they owe to the universal Church and the particular church to which they belong according to the prescripts of the law.
Or, in the case of parishes of another church sui iuris, to even declare them personal parishes for those with an interest in the Eastern Churches and to make their subjects in those parishes subject to that parish’s calendar and praxis. That meets the spiritual good clause, and the specificity clause, and is of sufficiently long duration as to be small-t tradition as well.

See CIC Canons 85-93 for the roman side

Of course. One must not* imagine* that this has been done, without personally requesting it.

 

[Aramis]

Of course. One must not* imagine* that this has been done, without personally requesting it.

Or seeing the personal parish status documented in current documentation. That alone is sufficient.

 

[Vico]

Or seeing the personal parish status documented in current documentation. That alone is sufficient.

Yes, in which case it is not a dispensation. And there are two varieties of personal parish: Holy See issued personal parishes (like military ordinariate) and territorial, restricted to a diocese or area within a diocese.

CCEO Canon 280

1. Generally, a parish is to be territorial, that is, it embraces all the Christian faithful of a certain territory; if however, in the judgment of the eparchial bishop, having consulted the presbyteral council, it is expedient, personal parishes are to be erected based on nationality, language, enrollment of the Christian faithful in another Church sui iuris or even upon some other definite determining factor.
2. It is the competency of the eparchial bishop to erect, modify and suppress parishes after consulting the presbyteral council.
3. A lawfully established parish is a juridic person by the law itself.

Parallel canon CIC 518.
Can. 518 As a general rule a parish is to be territorial, that is, one which includes all the Christian faithful of a certain territory. When it is expedient, however, personal parishes are to be established determined by reason of the rite, language, or nationality of the Christian faithful of some territory, or even for some other reason.

 

[RomanHeart]

Just a note: this person did not “rush in” - this person spent several years attending EC Liturgies, as well as Western. There was also another family member who did enter the EC rite, and this was also a consideration for him. I believe he is quite sincere that his move was in seeking reverence and holiness, and was taken by the goodness and very unique holy and wholesome outreach of The EC priest and his wife - yet, sometimes in life, one can still make a mistake. This person had been a cradle RC for over 50 years of his life, and thought a good parish would extend to his family, too, even if indirectly. But, well meaning intentions, those of spouse and children included, sometimes aren’t the basis for this change of rites. Sometimes God permits our desires so that we may ‘see’, if you will. Just to clarify, this person is not a ‘pew hopper’, but a sincere and devoted Catholic. Perhaps the parish priest should not have recommended him to the Bishop in the first place; that statement is not intended to lay blame; but perhaps the joy of a new member to his parish and ultimately the Eastern rite was something built from these considerations and not from a more objective scrutiny, since although this person did not solely attend there, and had difficulty committing for quite some time: the signs were there. Yet, I do believe both the person and the priest were genuine and well meaning. My question is what can be done, if there is something possible. Thank you for all the replies and any subsequent replies.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Just a note: this person did not “rush in” - this person spent several years attending EC Liturgies, as well as Western. There was also another family member who did enter the EC rite, and this was also a consideration for him. I believe he is quite sincere that his move was in seeking reverence and holiness, and was taken by the goodness and very unique holy and wholesome outreach of The EC priest and his wife - yet, sometimes in life, one can still make a mistake. This person had been a cradle RC for over 50 years of his life, and thought a good parish would extend to his family, too, even if indirectly. But, well meaning intentions, those of spouse and children included, sometimes aren’t the basis for this change of rites. Sometimes God permits our desires so that we may ‘see’, if you will. Just to clarify, this person is not a ‘pew hopper’, but a sincere and devoted Catholic. Perhaps the parish priest should not have recommended him to the Bishop in the first place; that statement is not intended to lay blame; but perhaps the joy of a new member to his parish and ultimately the Eastern rite was something built from these considerations and not from a more objective scrutiny, since although this person did not solely attend there, and had difficulty committing for quite some time: the signs were there. Yet, I do believe both the person and the priest were genuine and well meaning. My question is what can be done, if there is something possible. Thank you for all the replies and any subsequent replies.

I’m curious what is so binding about Canonical conscription for this person? For example I am still RC, its not like my RC parish priest or RC Bishop is chasing me to attend the Mass again. I have attended the UGCC for 4 months now and in fact I’m already working with the parish on certain projects.

So he just start attending a RC parish and live life as a RC. Is there anything prohibitive from his canonical conscription? Granted that all his children will be canonically EC, but they can all continue going to RC parishes for their entire lives. Many ECs do that today. Its not like he cannot attend a RC parish anymore or committed in any way to his EC parish.

 

[C_Alexander]

I’m curious what is so binding about Canonical conscription for this person? For example I am still RC, its not like my RC parish priest or RC Bishop is chasing me to attend the Mass again. I have attended the UGCC for 4 months now and in fact I’m already working with the parish on certain projects.

So he just start attending a RC parish and live life as a RC. Is there anything prohibitive from his canonical conscription? Granted that all his children will be canonically EC, but they can all continue going to RC parishes for their entire lives. Many ECs do that today. Its not like he cannot attend a RC parish anymore or committed in any way to his EC parish.

If a guy came on saying, “We properly discerned and got married in the church, but now that I’m married and have a kid, things are falling apart. I think it was all a big mistake! I’ve been celibate my whole life and think that’s my vocation. What can I do?” would you tell him, “Move out. Pretend like you never got married. Just go on like you never met her. As long as you don’t attempt to remarry, it’s allowed by the law. My bishop said my divorced cousin can still receive communion. What’s to stop you from doing the same thing?”

This isn’t an issue of what’s technically allowed by law. He and his wife discerned with their priest, then sought and received the blessing of two different bishops and made a commitment to be Eastern Catholic. They’re now under the care of the Eastern bishop. If they have a problem, they need to go to him. There are processes in place. The bishop is the one who knows those processes and is able to guide them through this while caring for their and their children’s souls. Not only is he able, but it is his responsibility. This particular problem is too big, too personal, and affects too many people to be dealt with by strangers online or by themselves.

 

[Vico]

ConstantineTG:

Some of the canons also apply universally to all faithful and appear in both CIC and CCEO, and there is also Pastor Bonus, paticular law of each ritual Church, and territorial laws, and laws related to the Church and civil authority.

If you study the canon law you see there are three groups of people, with the obligations and rights of each group: bishops, clergy, and the other faithful (including catachumens). There are inter-ritual canons. So Catholics are a member of the universal Catholic Church only by membership in a ritual Church (through baptism), and have some rights and obligations dependent upon their ritual Church. An ordinary/hierarch supports and assists Catholic ethnic communities with domicile, those with quasi-domicile, and people on the move, and visitors in certain ways, in addition to missionary work. Some faithful may even only have an ordinary/hierarch and no parish. The ritual Church is constituent of the person. This is a simplified view because there are also abbecies, missions, etc, and various equivalents to the diocesan bishop/hierarch.

universal Church
ritual Church (sui iuris)
particular Church (diocese/eparchy)
parish

 

[ConstantineTG]

If a guy came on saying, “We properly discerned and got married in the church, but now that I’m married and have a kid, things are falling apart. I think it was all a big mistake! I’ve been celibate my whole life and think that’s my vocation. What can I do?” would you tell him, “Move out. Pretend like you never got married. Just go on like you never met her. As long as you don’t attempt to remarry, it’s allowed by the law. My bishop said my divorced cousin can still receive communion. What’s to stop you from doing the same thing?”

Here’s the thing, going to a Roman Catholic parish is not cheating on your Eastern Catholic parish. Otherwise, I would have been an unfaithful Roman Catholic for some time now. Thing is, Canon Law supports our going to another ritual Church within the Catholic Church. It does not support us in going for another woman. You’re comparing apples and oranges here my friend. Any Catholic can go to any Catholic ritual Church to worship and receive the Sacraments except ordination. Unless this person we are talking about is seeking to become a priest, then I don’t see any other issue.

This isn’t an issue of what’s allowed by law. He and his wife discerned with their priest, then sought and received the blessing of two different bishops and made a commitment to be Eastern Catholic. They’re now under the care of the Eastern bishop. If they have a problem, they need to go to him. This particular problem is too big, too personal, and affects too many people to be dealt with by strangers online. There are processes in place. The bishop is the one who knows those processes and is able to guide them through this while caring for their and their children’s souls.

I still fail to see what is so binding about the canonical enrollment. So stop going to the EC parish and thats that. Like I said, many, many Eastern Catholics have done that. I was asking the Bishop yesterday about my own canonical enrollment and he made an example of the many Ukrainian Catholics who should belong to his flock but now go to RC parishes even without a canonical change. So whats prohibitive about it? The Church isn’t stopping us from practicing our faith in another Catholic tradition. There’s no sin, there’s no binding law. As long as we go to a Catholic Liturgy and receive the Sacraments from a Catholic priest, it doesn’t matter which ritual or tradition we go to. That is why I’m asking, why is so binding about the canonical enrollment that they cannot just go to the RC parish and live life as RCs?

 

[ConstantineTG]

ConstantineTG:

Some of the canons also apply universally to all faithful and appear in both CIC and CCEO, and there is also Pastor Bonus, paticular law of each ritual Church, and territorial laws, and laws related to the Church and civil authority.

If you study the canon law you see there are three groups of people, with the obligations and rights of each group: bishops, clergy, and the other faithful (including catachumens). There are inter-ritual canons. So Catholics are a member of the universal Catholic Church only by membership in a ritual Church (through baptism), and have some rights and obligations dependent upon their ritual Church. An ordinary/hierarch supports and assists Catholic ethnic communities with domicile, those with quasi-domicile, and people on the move, and visitors in certain ways, in addition to missionary work. Some faithful may even only have an ordinary/hierarch and no parish. The ritual Church is constituent of the person. This is a simplified view because there are also abbecies, missions, etc, and various equivalents to the diocesan bishop/hierarch.

universal Church
ritual Church (sui iuris)
particular Church (diocese/eparchy)
parish

Vico,

I understand but my question is what is preventing the person from just registering as a member of an RC parish and go there? I’m registered in an Eastern parish now and I’m canonically RC. I’m learning more and mroe about the Eastern faith and by little steps every day I become more Eastern. I did have concerns too about canonical enrollment and they were put to rest by the Bishop after I asked him directly. Basically what he told me is what I am saying here. Go to a parish and live life in that tradition, regardless of canonical enrollment. It can be done. If this person in question is unhappy in his Eastern parish, then leave and go to an RC parish or another Eastern parish and live and follow the traditions there. And that is my question, what is holding back this person from doing that? Certainly canonical enrollment does not hold them back from doing so. Sure, you have this piece of paper that says you belong to this ritual Church. But many have that and have lived lives as good Catholics in another ritual Church without switching. So why can’t this person just do the same?

 

[C_Alexander]

"C_Alexander:

If a guy came on saying, “We properly discerned and got married in the church, but now that I’m married and have a kid, things are falling apart. I think it was all a big mistake! I’ve been celibate my whole life and think that’s my vocation. What can I do?” would you tell him, “Move out. Pretend like you never got married. Just go on like you never met her. As long as you don’t attempt to remarry, it’s allowed by the law. My bishop said my divorced cousin can still receive communion. What’s to stop you from doing the same thing?”

Here’s the thing, going to a Roman Catholic parish is not cheating on your Eastern Catholic parish. Otherwise, I would have been an unfaithful Roman Catholic for some time now. Thing is, Canon Law supports our going to another ritual Church within the Catholic Church. It does not support us in going for another woman. You’re comparing apples and oranges here my friend. Any Catholic can go to any Catholic ritual Church to worship and receive the Sacraments except ordination. Unless this person we are talking about is seeking to become a priest, then I don’t see any other issue.

I did not make a comparison to adultery.

A comparison for you and your situation would be an unmarried and childless man dating while looking into monasticism. You’re discerning and your actions of going back and forth and between them would be appropriate to the circumstances. If you asked the bishop, “Is it OK for me to date while I consider monasticism as my vocation?” he’d say, “Of course!” You could ask this online and get plenty of people assuring you of the same. It’s common and doesn’t require nuance or greater attention to detail. That would be a comparison to your situation.

The comparison I made to the situation being discussed was to a married man who decided after marriage and family life that getting married was a big mistake and he wanted to return to celibacy. There are ways that is possible, but this is not a normal situation like a young adult dating and discerning marriage. This is an unusual situation and it now affects a wife and child(ren). Applying the advice given to a dating man to this situation, or for that matter comparing it to adultery, would not adequately address the uniqueness or the complexity of his situation. This type of situation requires guidance that can’t be found online.

 

[Vico]

Here’s the thing, going to a Roman Catholic parish is not cheating on your Eastern Catholic parish. Otherwise, I would have been an unfaithful Roman Catholic for some time now. Thing is, Canon Law supports our going to another ritual Church within the Catholic Church…

Unless this person we are talking about is seeking to become a priest, then I don’t see any other issue…

I still fail to see what is so binding about the canonical enrollment. … That is why I’m asking, why is so binding about the canonical enrollment that they cannot just go to the RC parish and live life as RCs?

Sacraments which must ordinarily be received in one’s Ritual Church are Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, Matrimony (must take place in the Church of at least one of the parties) and Holy Orders.

This guideline states “We should encourage families to attend their own Ritual Church.”

aodonline.org/aodonline-sqlimages/Evangelization/RitualChurchAscription.pdf

This is in keeping with statement of by the Church (Synod of Bishops) to Eastern Catholics in the Mid-East:
56. In towns, the faithful of the various Churches *sui iuris *often frequent a Catholic Church different from their own, because it is nearest to them or one in which they feel most at ease. Such people are asked to maintain their attachment to their original community, i.e., the one in which they were baptized. At the same time, Christians should see themselves as members of the Catholic Church in the Middle East and not simply as members of a particular Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20100606_instrumentum-mo_en.pdf

And the NCCB:
“The Committee on the Relationship between Eastern and Latin Catholic Churches of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, in their work Eastern Catholics in the United States of America, in 1999, explains that in the USA, 'It is the normal practice of the Church that Catholics celebrate the Lord’s day by participating in the celebration of the Eucharist in a community of their own church. Nevertheless, where there is diversity of Churches in the one place, the faithful worthily celebrate the resurrection of Jesus by attending the Eucharist in any of the autonomous ritual Churches.”

zenit.org/article-31050?l=english