syncretism???

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Ok, this is kind of feaking me out. But I lived in Mexico for a quite some time mostly in the border area though, and a lot of protestants accused catholics of idolatry becasue of the Saints or thigs like that. And well, I don’t understand this whole communion of the Saints thing honestly…

So can someone please help me out with understanding this??? I really appreciate it becasue right now I don’t know if I want to continue in the Catholic church or go back/revert back to the protestant-pentecostal church… and if I would/do revert back to the protestant church, it would be over this issue of saints… you know what I mean?

Thanks…
 
jasonsdec77 said:
Ok, this is kind of feaking me out. But I lived in Mexico for a quite some time mostly in the border area though, and a lot of protestants accused catholics of idolatry becasue of the Saints or thigs like that. And well, I don’t understand this whole communion of the Saints thing honestly…

So can someone please help me out with understanding this??? I really appreciate it becasue right now I don’t know if I want to continue in the Catholic church or go back/revert back to the protestant-pentecostal church… and if I would/do revert back to the protestant church, it would be over this issue of saints… you know what I mean?

Thanks…
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Since the beginning of Christianity, the early Church Fathers as well as the early saints had developed a good tradition of requesting the saints, those who died in the state of Grace for intercession, read the early church father writings ad you’ll see.

Although Catholics pray(ask) the saints, we must acknowledge in our hearts that the saints are there merely to intercede, to guide, and to lead us toward a better understanding of God. If a Protestant accuse you of idolatry when you devote to the Virgin or a particular saint, ask that person if he is a devotee to the Holy Scripture. If yes, ask him what’s the purpose of such devotion. The answer would be to gain a better understanding of God. Then tell him that the Catholic purpose for their devotion to a particular saint have the same purpose that through their virtues, and their guidance, that we may gain a deeper communion life with our Lord Jesus Christ. Ask them since both functions the same, why don’t they call themselves idolaters because of their intense devotion to the Holy Scripture(so intense that sometimes they trade the symbol of the cross into an open book).
 
The title of your thread seems to raise a question separate from the issue of communion of the saints.

In several countries where Roman Catholicism was introduced to the native people, the people (probably poorly catechized) would incorporate elements of their native religion into Catholicism, and/or would see Catholicism as a rough substitue for their former religion. For example, they saw prayer to the saints as a substitute for prayer to their pagan gods. This practice of combining or attempting to reconcile two conflicting religions is called syncretism.

I don’t know to what extent Catholicism in Mexico is still influenced by such syncretism; but perhaps your concern is more with perceived religious syncretism practiced there than with the actual issue of communion with the saints?
 
For most of the time, the Church often fight against such practices, even churches in places like Indonesia, Phillipines or in places where the natives still active in their old religious practices. Although the Church can forbid superstitious practices and such, it does not mean the people will always abide in it.
 
I was thinking the same thing as EnglishTeacher.

Patrick Madrid has a book out called Any Friend of God’s Is a Friend of Mine which is a good and user-friendly guide to what Catholics really believe about the saints. You can find an 8-page PDF version of the main points here:

patrickmadrid.com/anyfriendofGod1.pdf

The saints are our “Heavenly Buddies,” our cheerleaders, our helpers. They would be the last to want to be given the worship due only to God, because they are Saints precisely because they are united completely to God and His holy will.

To use another metaphor, they are our teammates, not trying to take over God’s role as the manager or coach. Not a perfect analogy of course, but you get my drift.

Hope this is helpful to you. God bless! 🙂
 
Very well said.

I would also offer, that the formal teachings of the Roman Catholic Catechism are not so troubling to the first Reformation Christians as many suppose. Of course, Pentecostals are not really Reformation Christians, but rather something else entirely… if you’re really at a crisis point of moving between Pentecostalism and Catholicism, you’re much better off with the potential errors of pious catholics in your midst, than the subjectivism and charismatic errors of pious pentecostals.

I may have mentioned this in another thread, but the Reformation issue regarding the intercession of the saints, was regarding two primary points:

– That no one should put their faith, hope, and trust in the saints, but rather in Christ alone to whom the saints and the Blessed Virgin point (i.e., the difference between asking the saints to pray for us and looking to them as models of Christian virtue, versus asking the saints to be our help and salvation in time of trouble.)

– That no one should be forced to invoke the saints against their will, since there is no clear Scriptural injunction to do so, or promise of grace associated with the practice (i.e., asking the intercession of the saints should be voluntary in personal piety, and not coerced, since that which does not procede from faith is sin.)

Today, to my understanding, Roman Catholic teaching neither forces anyone to invoke the intercession of the saints, nor does it encourage placing one’s faith, hope, and trust in anyone other than Christ. So, from a Lutheran perspective, Rome’s position on this particular subject today is not what the Reformers were debating 500 years ago, and frankly much more palatable.

Peace to you.
EnglishTeacher said:
The title of your thread seems to raise a question separate from the issue of communion of the saints.

In several countries where Roman Catholicism was introduced to the native people, the people (probably poorly catechized) would incorporate elements of their native religion into Catholicism, and/or would see Catholicism as a rough substitue for their former religion. For example, they saw prayer to the saints as a substitute for prayer to their pagan gods. This practice of combining or attempting to reconcile two conflicting religions is called syncretism.

I don’t know to what extent Catholicism in Mexico is still influenced by such syncretism; but perhaps your concern is more with perceived religious syncretism practiced there than with the actual issue of communion with the saints?
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WorkerPriest said:
Very well said.

I would also offer, that the formal teachings of the Roman Catholic Catechism are not so troubling to the first Reformation Christians as many suppose. Of course, Pentecostals are not really Reformation Christians, but rather something else entirely… if you’re really at a crisis point of moving between Pentecostalism and Catholicism, you’re much better off with the potential errors of pious catholics in your midst, than the subjectivism and charismatic errors of pious pentecostals.

I may have mentioned this in another thread, but the Reformation issue regarding the intercession of the saints, was regarding two primary points:

– That no one should put their faith, hope, and trust in the saints, but rather in Christ alone to whom the saints and the Blessed Virgin point (i.e., the difference between asking the saints to pray for us and looking to them as models of Christian virtue, versus asking the saints to be our help and salvation in time of trouble.)
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Why then is it written:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 12:21[/BIBLEDRB]

Is it a coincidence that Luther was both anti-Semitic and opposed to practices which originated in Judaism?
 
Cat Herder,

Perhaps you can explain what your question is related to. I’m not following. I only offered, that in the way these practices are formally taught in the Roman Catholic Catechism, confessional Reformation Christians may not have much to be troubled by. In essence, I was offering a potential defense of modern Roman teaching from a confessional Lutheran perspective. I’m not sure why you would take issue with this.

Also, I hope you aren’t trying to bait an uncharitable argument regarding the real or imagined personal foibles of Fr. Luther. I will neither engage in this kind of discussion, nor will I exploit the real or imagined foibles of other Christians. I prefer to deal with the ideas, and not the personalities.

Peace be with you.
Cat_Herder said:
Why then is it written:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 12:21[/BIBLEDRB]

Is it a coincidence that Luther was both anti-Semitic and opposed to practices which originated in Judaism?
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WorkerPriest said:
Also, I hope you aren’t trying to bait an uncharitable argument regarding the real or imagined personal foibles of Fr. Luther. I will neither engage in this kind of discussion, nor will I exploit the real or imagined foibles of other Christians. I prefer to deal with the ideas, and not the personalities.

Peace be with you.
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I think it’s fair to ask the question of WHY Luther argued against the Communion of Saints and to bring in his other teachings (including the ones that are less flattering) to examine whether there is a connection. I do think he engaged in a conscious campaign to remove Judaic elements from Christianity and I want to see this topic explored.

I did edit the previous post to try and reduce the prejudicial effect the statement could have, and I apologize if I wasn’t thorough enough.
 
Perhaps, if you wish to discuss your personal theories regarding the person and work of Fr. Luther, it would be better placed on it’s own thread. Perhaps you’ll find someone to engage with. I do not perceive, however, that this was the original poster’s intent.

But again to my point, and I think to the original poster’s concern, the charge of syncretism is not well established by the formal teachings of the Roman Catholic Church regarding the Communion of the Saints. Further, the Lutheran Reformation, as measured by her confessions, is not necessarily at severe odds with Rome’s formal teaching on this matter, as measured by the Catechism. The respective errors and abuses of pentecostalism are much more grave, than any difficulties I might identify in the Roman communion, and if those are his only choices, I would strongly counsel him to remain within the Roman communion.

I think that sums up my sentiment and observation, again, for the hopeful benefit of the original poster. If you wish to have some form of charitable dialogue with me, please feel free to contact me.

Peace be with you.
Cat_Herder said:
I think it’s fair to ask the question of WHY Luther argued against the Communion of Saints and to bring in his other teachings (including the ones that are less flattering) to examine whether there is a connection. I do think he engaged in a conscious campaign to remove Judaic elements from Christianity and I want to see this topic explored.

I did edit the previous post to try and reduce the prejudicial effect the statement could have, and I apologize if I wasn’t thorough enough.
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(Post 1 of 2)
jasonsdec77 said:
Ok, this is kind of feaking me out. But I lived in Mexico for a quite some time mostly in the border area though, and a lot of protestants accused catholics of idolatry becasue of the Saints or thigs like that. And well, I don’t understand this whole communion of the Saints thing honestly…

So can someone please help me out with understanding this??? I really appreciate it becasue right now I don’t know if I want to continue in the Catholic church or go back/revert back to the protestant-pentecostal church… and if I would/do revert back to the protestant church, it would be over this issue of saints… you know what I mean?

Thanks…
Click to expand...
the communion of the saints is simply all of us, on earth, in heaven and purgatory, co-operating in unity as members of the church, all being part of the Mystical Body of Christ,
we are in communion with each other on earth by professing the same faith, obeying the same authority, and assisting each other with our prayers and good works,
we are in communion with the saints in heaven by honoring them as glorified members of the church, by invoking their prayers and aid, and by striving to imitate their virtues,
and we are in communion with the souls in purgatory by helping them with our prayers and good works.
that is what it means to be in communion with the saints, and the bible speaks of this communion many times, for example -
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. - Ephesians 2:19
“After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.” - 2 Machabees 15:13

now, that is the communion of the saints, but i think what you want to know more specifically about is seeking intercession from the saints,
which is also in the bible, -
By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel. Ephesians 6:18
“When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee. And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son’s wife from the devil. For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.” Tobias 12:12
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God” Romans 15:30

well, there’s more than that, but i think it would be better to try and explain this subject to you in more length and detail, because if it was as easy as just giving you bible passages, you would understand by now…and sorry if i make this a bit long.

okay so, this is something that tends to confuse alot of Catholics and most non-Catholics, but the root cause of this confusion is one thing - ignorance,
now first of all, the word “idol” is really referring specifically to divine worship, and not every worship,
an idol can be any “thing”, person, creature, or something imagined, or even yourself,
an object becomes an idol when it is treated as an end in itself, with no reference to God,

in the Catholic faith there are 2 kinds of worship, there’s adoration, which is the divine worship reserved for God alone, and then there is veneration, which we give to the angels and saints,

worship in general though, is a very misunderstood word, it is actually a very simple thing that is not even meant just for those is high places(such as a king) but simply something we give to those we love and whose worth we acknowledge.
worship is actually a contraction of the word “worth-ship”, which is to mean the “worth” in which we hold for another person,
for example, when you applaud someone on stage, like an actor or a singer, you are “worshiping” him, because you are acknowledging his worth,
or when a little girl gives a dandelion to her mother to show her that she loves her, that is worship,
now of course, that worship and the worship we owe to God alone are two completely different things, however, the worship such as a little girl giving a dandelion to her mother out of love, we can also give to God, and it is a very beautiful type of worship which we should give to God, it is simply showing Him that we love Him, and when it comes from the heart like a child’s love for her mother, it is so much more pleasing to God, because then it’s not just given to Him because we know we owe it to Him, it’s given to Him because we truly love Him with a sincere genuine love.

(Continued in next post)
 
(Post 2 of 2)

to understand this better though, i think it will help if i can explain why we worship God in the first place.
ask yourself this - “does God need our worship?”, if you think about that for a minute, the obvious answer is “no”, God does not need our worship,
and why is that? because God has nothing to gain and nothing to lose, He is already perfect, and whether we worship Him or not, whether we even exist or not, God is still perfect, and really does not need us at all,
so then why do we worship? we worship for our own sake, worshiping helps us to be perfect, it is an opportunity to express our love, dependence, and devotion,
when we worship, we develop along the lines of love, thankfulness, and service,
if we do not worship, then we do not fulfill our purpose in life, which is to know, love, and serve God, and if we are not fulfilling that purpose, then we cannot have perfection or happiness,
we do owe God our worship, and although He does not need it, if we refused to give it, that would say something about our love and gratitude for Him, and it would also keep us from reaching for that holiness and love that we are meant to reach.

now it is also important to know, that in giving glory to God, you are not giving Him something that He would be unhappy without, He is not to be thought of as if He would be angry and smite us if we did not give to Him what He is owed,
and the truth of the matter is, we could never give to God what He truly deserves,
but that is not what He is after,
the real reason we worship, give glory, show respect, and all of that, is to grow in our love, that is what we are on this earth for, to learn to love, and God teaches us to love in many various ways,
every choice we make is a choice either to love or to hate, every suffering we choose to either accept or reject is a choice to love or hate,
God may not need us, but He does long for us and does love us very much, and the only way for us to grow in love for Him is to learn to love, which is what we learn in everything we do here on earth.

so anyways, now that i’ve explained that, i will explain on the common misunderstanding of “statue worship”
the statues and pictures and other things in a church, they’re to give honor to God, we acknowledge that God made the Blessed Mother and made her who she was, as likewise Saint Joseph, Saint Teresa, Saint Gabriel, and all the angels and saints, God made them and they were so good because they were filled with God, they were not great because of all the wonderful miracles they were witnesses to, they were great because they willingly let God fill them so completely,
they are very good examples for us, and when we see an image or statue of them, it reminds us of their life, and also reminds us to ask for their intercession,
and those statues or painting are also put in churches to keep our minds on heavenly things.

it is good for us to have interaction with the saints(in the only way we can really) because God made us to be social creatures, when we help eachother and love eachother, that is a very good thing, and it does not stop when we die, on the contrary, it becomes more profound after death, more perfect,
when we ask the saints to intercede for us, we are also saying “you are better then me, you are perfect and without sin, whereas i am a sinner, you are Gods friend, whereas i am His enemy”
God is more willing to grant a request from His friends in heaven, because they are much more pleasing to Him, and so that is why it is so much better if we ask for their help.
and when we have a statue of a saint, that is also good, because it is giving them honor(which is what veneration is),
just as we have statues of war hero’s all over the place, or some of the presidents, or other important people in history,
so we Catholics likewise have statues of our hero’s, the ones we consider great and worthy of acknowledgment, the ones worth remembering and whose example is worth taking after.

well, i think that’s enough, but what will help you even further is reading this -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=15375783
that will explain much more, and in such a way that you will be able to explain it and debate it with your non-catholic friends.

alright, so i hope this helps, take care.
 
Saints are important because they are human examples that we can use to improve our everday spiritual lives. They provide lessons.

If you look at the lives of most of the Saints you will see a gamut of people. Everyday Joes called to lay down their old lives and follow Jesus. Unvirtuous people that through trials and the perseverance of loved ones have become extraordinary people and paragons. You see many that were handicapped physically. The Saints provide examples to follow and show that everyone is equal and that no matter what shortcomings we may think we have we are loved and can ourselves help others. They are a “blueprint” to follow.

We catch alot of flak for keeping statues and paintings of Saints but it is no more different than keeping photos of deceased love ones. The Saints are family members that have gone before us.
 
From my previous post on the Communion of Saints:

According to the Bible:
] 1. Can the saints hear us?
] 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints?
] 3. Is it right to honor saints?

► 1. Can the saints hear us?

The saints are not God. They only have the knowledge that is granted them by God. Let’s see if God has granted them the ability to see what’s going on on Earth:

[BIBLEDRB]Lk 9:30-31[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mk 9:4[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 6:9-11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 12:1[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Lk 16:19-30[/BIBLEDRB]
Answer: Yup.

► 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints?

Catholics (and Orthodox and high-church Anglicans) do not pray to saints. We pray through saints. We ask saints to pray for us. Where do we get this idea from?

[BIBLEDRB]Rom 15:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Col 4:3[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 5:25[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Thessalonians 3:1[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Eph 6:18-19[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 148:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Those are standing orders. Christians are to pray for one another. Now… show me a book and verse that says that this obligation to pray for one another stops at death.

There isn’t one. That the duty to pray for one another ends at death is a tradition of men.

So what a fundamentalist might do is say, “well, the saints are dead, so asking them to pray is necromancy,” and cite this verse:

[BIBLEDRB]Dt 18:10-11[/BIBLEDRB]

There is a big problem with calling the saints “dead.”

[BIBLEDRB]Mk 12:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus Christ has destroyed death, and as you admit, there are human beings in Heaven who are depicted in the Book of Revelation as being very much alive and very much engaged in the practice of offering prayers.

The saints are not dead. Necromancy referred to conjuring up spirits from Sheol/hell/the underworld. Calling on someone who is in heaven to pray for you is not necromancy, first of all because there is no “necro,” no death, involved.

So if we’re going to go by the Bible alone, the honest thing to do is to admit:
A. Christians have a duty to pray for one another
B. This duty does not end at death
C. There are human beings who are in heaven offering prayers.

► 3. Is it right to honor saints?

Revelation says:
"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,” (Rev. 19:10).
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But have you checked the rest of the Bible?

[BIBLEDRB]Jos 5:12-15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Dan 8:17[/BIBLEDRB]

Egad! People bowing to angels! The horror!

Why was it okay for Josue/Joshua or Daniel to bow to an angel, and not John? Look what John did besides bowing:
And I fell at his feet to worship him.
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John actually worshiped the angel. Joshua and Daniel merely honored the angel as a holy servant of God; their worship was directed to God. The former is worship of adoration; the latter is veneration. This distinction is biblical, and not just something that some guy in Rome came up with.

Oh, and what happens to human beings when they reach heaven?

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 20:36[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:30[/BIBLEDRB]

So, here’s our checklist again.

According to the Bible:
[X] 1. Can the saints hear us? YES.
[X] 2. Should we be praying for the intercession of saints? YES.
[X] 3. Is it right to honor saints? YES.
 
[Continued from previous post]

So now that we’ve established the Biblical support for the Communion of Saints, for honoring saints and for asking for saintly intercession, let’s look at history.

The Jews have been venerating and praying to saints for thousands of years.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=8350

This is Rachel’s Tomb. It is the third most sacred shrine (yes, Jews have shrines just like Catholics) in Judaism, behind only the Temple Mount and the Cave of the Patriarchs. What do Jews do here? They pray. Here is one such prayer:

“Imma! Imma! (Mother!)” … “Please save me. I’m innocent. Please save me,”

That’s right, the Jews call Rachel their Universal Mother. Just like Catholics call Mary their Blessed Mother.

So we see that the veneration and intercession of saints (tzadikim in Hebrew) was being practiced in Judaism long before Christianity even existed.

In case you aren’t aware of this, the Christ in Jesus Christ means “Messiah.” Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, the Anointed One Who was to fulfill all of the promises God made to His People. Christianity is thus the fulfillment and continuation of Judaism. Today’s Judaism, Rabbinical Judaism, split off when the Jews expelled the Christians from the Temple and still contains the intercession of saints. So did Christianity, until Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation.

And this is why I brought up Luther. Until he came along, NO ONE questioned the intercession of saints or called it idolatry. Even the Byzantine iconoclasts only rejected statuary, not the intercession of saints. Luther was the first one to even insinuate that the intercession of saints came from paganism rather than Judaism.

So, first of all, Catholics should not have to defend the intercession of saints. Protestants are the ones who need to deliver an explanation as to why they have rejected something that has been part of the true religion since before Christ.
 
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