Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[couponfit]

Here is something else to think about. Many Protestants deny Christ in the Eucharist. Does that mean we cannot pray with Protestants because they deny Christ in the Eucharist. Of course not.

Good point. You’ll see catholics, mostly lay catholics, argue against even praying with eastern catholics sometimes.

The reality is there is a strong absolutist view within all spiritual and faith based groups. This is because each faith is certain in their belief of salvation or death.

 

[couponfit]

I have not dismissed a teaching of an ecumenical council. Please stop trying to paint me as a dissenter, it is uncharitable and I don’t appreciate it.

841 “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Yes, when they accept Jesus they will indeed adore Him, the Creator, on the last day with us. That plan of salvation is Jesus. They must accept Him for all this to entail.
Right now, as it stands, Muslims do not acknowledge the Creator Jesus, whom we confess “through Him all things are made”

For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

The question was not whether muslims are right, the question was can we pray with them. The specific word used was syncretisticly, and of course the answer is no because that word could mean to merge beliefs of muslims and catholics. But we can pray simultaneously with the same goal in mind.

So YES you are right. But no you are not addressing the actual question which is why you are being referred to the ecumenical council teachings on muslims. Your response is right but not directly relevant to the question of whether we can pray with them. It’s relevant to whether we can combine our beliefs.

 

[couponfit]

Jesus is God and will always be.

That statement is correct and is not disputed in this question or by my answer.

 

[jam070406]

Yes Lumen Gentium reaffirms that those Muslims that acknowledge the Creator, Jesus, and profess the Faith of Abraham, the Christian Faith, are included in the plan of salvation and will adore the just judge, Jesus, along with us.

Read in light of Tradition no problem.

What it doesn’t say is that Catholics and Muslins worship the same God.

I’d like to correct an error, I believe it is Nostra Aetate that mentions Muslims. Not Lumen Gentium.

 

[couponfit]

It is a binding teaching on Catholics. Lumen Gentium is binding. Binding and infallible are two different things, all the Church’s teachings are binding, they are not all infallible.

We are not talking about believing that Muslims are right! That’s make that clear. We are talking about interfaith relations. In the Nostra Aetate examples of why this was necessary were previous wars over indifferences. So the teaching is we don’t go to war over our views. Further the guidelines express that we can pray with muslims in concert but not compromise on our views. So the faith that Jesus is true and the one God is not at question. The question is, can a catholic pray with Muslims at the same time in the same place.

 

[jam070406]

The question was not whether muslims are right, the question was can we pray with them. The specific word used was syncretisticly, and of course the answer is no because that word could mean to merge beliefs of muslims and catholics. But we can pray simultaneously with the same goal in mind.

So YES you are right. But no you are not addressing the actual question which is why you are being referred to the ecumenical council teachings on muslims. Your response is right but not directly relevant to the question of whether we can pray with them. It’s relevant to whether we can combine our beliefs.

I agree that we are not to pray with Muslims. And past Popes have said as much and stated why the Faithful are not allowed to do so. Which you alluded to. Along with syncretism it also promotes indifference.

 

[jam070406]

We are not talking about believing that Muslims are right! That’s make that clear. We are talking about interfaith relations. In the Nostra Aetate examples of why this was necessary were previous wars over indifferences. So the teaching is we don’t go to war over our views. Further the guidelines express that we can pray with muslims in concert but not compromise on our views. So the faith that Jesus is true and the one God is not at question. The question is, can a catholic pray with Muslims at the same time in the same place.

Baltimore Catechism 205:

How does a Catholic sin against Faith?

A Catholic sins against Faith by apostasy, heresy, indifferentism and by taking part in non-Catholic worship.

 

[Mickey]

The second statement doesn’t make the first statement I made false.

Merely stating that Christ’s human ethnicity was Jewish from his mother’s line…does not mean that Jews and Muslims worship the Trinitarian God of the Christians…sorry.

My response was to the statement that Jews had a distorted view of God.

Yes. And they still do.

It’s not distorted!

How do you figure? They consciously reject Christ. That is distorted, my friend.

In fact our view and the Jews are exactly the same up to the end of the old testament.

No. We see Christ throughout the OT.

For the first maybe 400 years we christians did not even have a “new testament”.

Not compiled as we know it today…but the writings were circulating and the oral Tradition was alive.

 

[Mickey]

Good point. You’ll see catholics, mostly lay catholics, argue against even praying with eastern catholics sometimes.

That’s unfortunate. I remember as an Eastern Catholic being treated as a second class Catholic by some of the Latins.

But Eastern Catholics are not muslims…so this is meanginless.

 

[Mickey]

But we can pray simultaneously with the same goal in mind.

The same goal in mind?!? How do you figure? They reject Christ. There is no common goal.

 

[Mickey]

Further the guidelines express that we can pray with muslims in concert but not compromise on our views.

So unless we know that the muslim has converted…or is in the process of converting to a faith in Christ…common prayer is not recommended. Correct?

 

[boleyn2010]

"Allah" is not a name. It is the Arabic word for “God,” so Arabic-speaking Christians pray to “Allah” as well. Thus much of your reply is nonsense: you’re saying things like, “God begot a Son. God did not. Hmmm,” and "God and God are Not the same God."
In this respect I beg to differ. Allah is not, in the first instance, an Arabic word, its origin being Assyrian. It is a contraction of *el and *ilah i.e. “god”***It was used in pre Islamic times to mean “a higher god” by the Arabic people. Mohammed took this name and loaded it with new meaning from borrowed pre-Islamic ideas, and also from the Old and New Testament thus introducing Allah as a “high god”. The koran itself testifies that the worship of “al-ilah” was an integral part of the worship system of the pre-Islamic pantheon. (20:65; 31:31;26:61-63 )

---

The lie is*** in the Qur’an, because God does have a Son. Muslims mistakenly think God, in whom they believe and to whom they pray, has no Son and they are wrong. It’s just that simple.

Muslims believe that the koran is the inerrant word of Allah. So if there is a lie in the koran who is responsible? God cannot lie. So the koran is not inspired by God.
To worship the god of the koran and to pray to him is not to worship God or to pray to Him.

By the way, Francis, you do know that the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches (CCC 841) that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, right? CCC 841 quotes Lumen Gentium, which is from an ecumenical council. You really can’t get any more authoritative than that.*

In my understanding the view is that Muslims indeed do believe in there being only one true God, which is in reality a truth. … But the question is begged. Is the god they claim to be the one true God in reality The One True God.?
I personally do not believe it is.
That they believe that there is only one God is correct.
That Allah (of the koran) is The One True God. I think not…

Incidentally. In order to not offend the many Catholics that use the word “Allah” as “God” I would point out the following. The name “Allah” as referring to God of the Bible was popularized among Middle -Eastern Christians via the “Van Dyck” translation of the Arabic Bible completed in 1864, and although the same word form is used in the koran the two forms are loaded with different theological meaning.
For my part when I use the term or word “Allah” I am referring to the name used in the koran and not to the name used by Christians to mean “God”.

Having read the various post I will not contribute further as there appears to be much dissent leading to dislike and intolerance between some contributors.
We are called to love one another and to offer guidance to the errant and rebuke to the seriously errant.
My position is my conviction and if I will not detract, it is not out of stubborness but out of a heartfelt love of God.
Peace be with ypou
Francis

 

[Mickey]

In this respect I beg to differ. Allah is not, in the first instance, an Arabic word, its origin being Assyrian. It is a contraction of *el and *ilah i.e. “god”****It was used in pre Islamic times to mean “a higher god” by the Arabic people. Mohammed took this name and loaded it with new meaning from borrowed pre-Islamic ideas, and also from the Old and New Testament thus introducing Allah as a “high god”. The koran itself testifies that the worship of “al-ilah” was an integral part of the worship system of the pre-Islamic pantheon. (20:65; 31:31;26:61-63 )

Muslims believe that the koran is the inerrant word of Allah. So if there is a lie in the koran who is responsible? God cannot lie. So the koran is not inspired by God.
To worship the god of the koran and to pray to him is not to worship God or to pray to Him.

In my understanding the view is that Muslims indeed do believe in there being only one true God, which is in reality a truth. … But the question is begged. Is the god they claim to be the one true God in reality The One True God.?
I personally do not believe it is.
That they believe that there is only one God is correct.
That Allah (of the koran) is The One True God. I think not…

Incidentally. In order to not offend the many Catholics that use the word “Allah” as “God” I would point out the following. The name “Allah” as referring to God of the Bible was popularized among Middle -Eastern Christians via the “Van Dyck” translation of the Arabic Bible completed in 1864, and although the same word form is used in the koran the two forms are loaded with different theological meaning.
For my part when I use the term or word “Allah” I am referring to the name used in the koran and not to the name used by Christians to mean “God”.

Having read the various post I will not contribute further as there appears to be much dissent leading to dislike and intolerance between some contributors.
We are called to love one another and to offer guidance to the errant and rebuke to the seriously errant.
My position is my conviction and if I will not detract, it is not out of stubborness but out of a heartfelt love of God.
Peace be with ypou
Francis
Great post! But I hope you will continue to contribute. Yes…there is strong debate and passion in this thread…but I do not believe that we are jeopardizing our brotherly love for one another.

 

[jam070406]

Great post! But I hope you will continue to contribute. Yes…there is strong debate and passion in this thread…but I do not believe that we are jeopardizing our brotherly love for one another.

I agree, great post. I wish he will continue to contribute as well.

 

[boleyn2010]

I agree, great post. I wish he will continue to contribute as well.

Thank you both for your commments. Part of my decision is based on disappointment. Disappointment that a large number of the Body of Christ has fallen into the trap of modernism and political-correctness. Guard what you say lest you offend someone. Agree that every other person’s opinion might be correct. Water down your beliefs in order to be concilliatory toward other “belief” systems.
I for one hold to the traditions and instructions of the Fathers of our faith who, to me, never reverted back to legalism and the then current cultural themes, but indeed rebuked those themes and legalisms that ran counter to the Gospels, Acts and Epistles. Jesus was never swayed in His Ministry by the culture of the day but indeed challenged those very obstacles to True Faith and ultimately the salvation of man. Even to the point where some of His own followers, unable to accept His discourse on The Bread of Life, abandoned Him. He did not “water down” what He had said to them but rather re-affirmed His statement and further challenged those remaining.
Are we not to do the same? Hold fast to what we have received and not say “Ok, we will accept what you have to say. It is after all nearly correct.” No! I say we MUST NOT compromise just so we might encompass other beliefs. They MUST be made aware of the TRUTH, and not a distorted version.
God is God. Allah (of the koran) is NOT.
Anyone claiming that Allah (of the koran) is God would do well to read about the origins and history of Islam, it’s beliefs and practices and it’s subsequent manipulation of Arabic culture before they venture into the pages of the koran. There are many well balanced books available which get to the heart of how and why Mohammed “created” this religion. and further show the historical, geographical, geneological and theological errors within it’s pages.
How any one could derive that Divine Inspiration was responsible is beyond my comprehension.
Pray for our Muslim friends that they may be led to the Light of Christ.
Peace be with you.
Francis.

 

[Mickey]

Part of my decision is based on disappointment. Disappointment that a large number of the Body of Christ has fallen into the trap of modernism and political-correctness.

Yes. That is extremely disappointing to me also.

God is God. Allah (of the koran) is NOT.

Indeed!

 

[TMC]

So you are saying that there are non-infallible binding teachings…and infallible binding teachigs? Are there non-infallible non-binding teachings? Where do you find your information about this non-infalible binding teaching?

Furthermore, there were Popes prior to Vatican II who taught the opposite regarding Islam…which teachings are the true non-infallible binding teachings?

ALL of the Church’s teachings are binding, only a tiny handful are infallible. Any properly catechised Catholic knows that–which is why no one here is denying it. There are any number of places that can be found, if you are unwilling to take my word for it, I am also unwilling to poke around the Vatican website to find them for you.

 

[TMC]

Yes Lumen Gentium reaffirms that those Muslims that acknowledge the Creator, Jesus, and profess the Faith of Abraham, the Christian Faith, are included in the plan of salvation and will adore the just judge, Jesus, along with us.

Read in light of Tradition no problem.

What it doesn’t say is that Catholics and Muslins worship the same God.

Yes, it does. Read it again.

 

[jam070406]

Yes, it does. Read it again.

No, it doesn’t. It says those that acknowledge the Creator. Muslims do not acknowledge Jesus, through whom all things are made. Jesus is God, He is the Creator.

 

[Mickey]

ALL of the Church’s teachings are binding

Where is your source?

There are any number of places that can be found,

In other words…you are not sure of the source.

My understanding is that Vatican II was a pastoral Council…therefore the only “binding” teachings are those dogmas that are being affirmed from past Roman Catholic Councils.

There is no binding teaching directive from that Council that claims faithful Roman Catholics are required to believe that the muslim god is the same as the Christian God.