Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[mini_me640]

Maybe ask a Muslin why they pray.

It’s MusliM not MusliN

 

[rinnie]

Are you saying that the ancient gesture of veneration with a kiss…a gesture that the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use to venerate the Holy Cross, the Holy Bible, the Holy Icons, and the Holy Relics…is not scandalous when used to kiss the Koran?

God forbid!

Personally, I believe he regretted it right after he did it.

I don’t not for a moment. He knew that the only thing that those people have in their life, the biggest asset in their life is the Quran. Does he accept every word of it, Heck no? He tells you he does not.

It was not what was contained in the Quran that touched his soul. It was what the meaning of the Quran was to them People and when they handed it over to him as a Gift, his heart was full with Joy and love for those People. It was the Holy Spirit in action.

What did you want him to do Mickey? Spit on it, Step on it?

What he did was something for the world to See. He showed them his love for them and for God and to the world to see what a Gift we were given for such a Holy Man who indeed kept his promise to bring the Good news to all the world.

Someday in time when the Good news of the O.T and N.T is brought to them in full light, many will think of that day. What did the Holy Man of God do?

Then they will see the Love and Respect that he showed to them, acknowleding the Love and respect that they showed unto him.

IT is that KISS that they will remember for ALL MIANKIND.And that Kiss of love that will bring them to Christ our dear Lord and Savior.

To make a long story short. What was the Kiss? Just the proof that the Holy Spirit has kept his promise to us as Christ said!! I will be with you until the end of age. When you speak in MY name I WILL GIVE YOU THE WORDS!! Sometimes a Picture is worth a thousand words.

I think when JPll met Christ and Christ knew what was in his heart, he said You did well!! Welcome Home my Son! He did not Care what the world thought or thinks of him. All he cared about was doing what the Holy Spirit asked of him. SPread my good news to all of the Word.

That is why the Man is a Saint! It will be for all the world to see soon!!

 

[rinnie]

And JP2 had his.

I agree! He sure does. But the CCC is not a opinion. It is him exercising his right with Apostolic Succession to teach in the Name of Christ. A right he rightly has been given.

Big difference.

Where does it say that the CCC is the opinon of the Pope? He don’t!!

Or as you say Mickey Nonsense

 

[rinnie]

Yes! We are bound to believe that Jesus is the way, the Truth and the Life and nobody comes to the Father but through Him.
And…that those that do not profess the Trinity do not know the one true God.

Yes we Are. It is part of our Baptismal Promises. But you are saying that our God holds others who have not had the Grace of the OHCAC given to them held accountable?

 

[Busy_bee]

Are you saying that the ancient gesture of veneration with a kiss…a gesture that the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use to venerate the Holy Cross, the Holy Bible, the Holy Icons, and the Holy Relics…is not scandalous when used to kiss the Koran?

God forbid!

Personally, I believe he regretted it right after he did it.

ven·er·a·tion [vènnə ráysh’n]
noun

1. feeling of respect: feelings of deep respect or awe

Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
No it is not. It only shows the respect that we all cry that needs to be shown to other beliefs that are not ours. The pope went beyond tolerance to respecting the fact that they believe in the existence of a supreme being, and truly, they are devoted.
He respects their opinion. This also opens the way to them respecting our own and not screaming jihad at us. Respecting peoples views and way of life does not mean we necessarily agree with them.
I certainly hope he didn’t regret it.

As for the question of whom the muslims serve, our Lord told the samaritans: You samaritans do not know whom you serve. I think that statement can be applied to the muslims too. Although they have the right intentions, we believe their revelation is false. However, we have no proof. Only God can say who has the right revelation, and I know that both revelations cannot be right-it is either Jesus is the son of God OR he is an impostor and God never said he had a son. I live in a country where religious clashes are on the increase. I think that respect is much needed now as we have worn our tolerance thin.:sad_yes:

 

[rinnie]

Pope Clement V
“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all… They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”

And I have to ask ITs just killing me, What in the world does this have to do with the Muslims not having the same God as us the God of Abraham.

And as much as I hate to admit, what changed in the eyes of the Church for the things that they do? I mean really!

We stiil deny their teaching and Mohamad and that he speaks in the name of God. We Clearly deny his Authority, He has none.

But we still accept their God the God of Abraham as the One True GOd.

I COME ON really, is this not getting out of hand. WHERE does this in any way DENY that we believe in the ONE GOD CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH?

 

[jam070406]

Yes we Are. It is part of our Baptismal Promises. But you are saying that our God holds others who have not had the Grace of the OHCAC given to them held accountable?

No. What are you talking about?? Have you not been paying attention? Do not twist my words or pull them out of context to make them say something I have not said.

 

[rinnie]

The document Dominus Iesus was written specifically to clear up ambiguities and relativistic errors that have been drawn from those texts and do damage to the Catholic Faith. Faith in the one true God is belief in the Trinity. Muslims reject the Trinity therefore, do not have Faith in the one true God. They have belief, NOT FAITH, in a deity that derives only from their false religion.

Please show me SOME OFFICIAL Church document validating your claim. For goodness sakes the CCC in itself is in direct conflict with you.

Unless you can STATE that the faith of Abraham is not the faith of the One True God.

It is time for all of you to start giving SOME OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS!! Not what you agree or disagree with the teaching of the Church.

 

[jam070406]

Please show me SOME OFFICIAL Church document validating your claim. For goodness sakes the CCC in itself is in direct conflict with you.

Unless you can STATE that the faith of Abraham is not the faith of the One True God.

It is time for all of you to start giving SOME OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS!! Not what you agree or disagree with the teaching of the Church.

I HAVE!!! Over and over and over.

DOMINUS IESUS. It corrects the error that you cling to.

 

[Busy_bee]

Quote:
But the revelations contained in the Koran were given him by Gabriel (?) from Allah.

The muslim claim is that an angel spoke to mohamad and said these are allah’s words.

This is what I was told. I hope someone can prove the truth of it. Please!
When Mohammed was first getting the so-called revelations, he went in fear and confusion to a monk (who was somehow related to him. I don’t know the exact relationship) he thought it was demonic revelations. It is interesting to note that it was the monk that convinced him he wasn’t having demonic revelations and that maybe the angel was who he claimed to be.

 

[rinnie]

The document Dominus Iesus was written specifically to clear up ambiguities and relativistic errors that have been drawn from those texts and do damage to the Catholic Faith. Faith in the one true God is belief in the Trinity. Muslims reject the Trinity therefore, do not have Faith in the one true God. They have belief, NOT FAITH, in a deity that derives only from their false religion.

I did loud and clear. Please correct me If I am wrong. You said they do not have FAITH in the One True God.

I totally disagree with you, and so does the teachings of the Catholic Church. They have indeed the Faith of Abraham. Abraham’s faith is in the ONE TRUE GOD.

You said they have belief not faith. I disagee, and so does the teaching of the CCC. Read it.

Just because they do not have the Full understanding of the GOd Of Abraham in no ways denies he is the same God.

 

[jam070406]

I did loud and clear. Please correct me If I am wrong. You said they do not have FAITH in the One True God.

I totally disagree with you, and so does the teachings of the Catholic Church. They have indeed the Faith of Abraham. Abraham’s faith is in the ONE TRUE GOD.

You said they have belief not faith. I disagee, and so does the teaching of the CCC. Read it.

Just because they do not have the Full understanding of the GOd Of Abraham in no ways denies he is the same God.

WRONG. They DO NOT have the Faith of Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

This is what I was told. I hope someone can prove the truth of it. Please!
When Mohammed was first getting the so-called revelations, he went in fear and confusion to a monk (who was somehow related to him. I don’t know the exact relationship) he thought it was demonic revelations. It is interesting to note that it was the monk that convinced him he wasn’t having demonic revelations and that maybe the angel was who he claimed to be.

Busy Bee read the O.T and the N.T. God gave us 2 things in this world History and reason. Read the O.T. it will tell you everything about what is to come.

The N.T. does not take away from the O.T. it fullfills it.

There is never stated that someone other then Christ would come. But it DOES say especially in the N.T. that many false prophets will come and claim to be in my name and fool many.

Read what the N.T. states! The CHurch is the pillar of all truth. The apostles are sent in the name of CHrist. The Pope and the Bishops in succession can be traced to him.

Peter is the one who holds the keys to the kingdom the kingdom here on earth THE Catholic CHurch. The Pope can be traced directly to St Peter.

That is a short summary.

 

[rinnie]

WRONG. They DO NOT have the Faith of Abraham.

For the Love of Pete. Here it is! Why are you getting mad at me. All I said is your comment is in DIRECT conflict with the CCC.

Here it is for the Million time. SEE for yourself.

841 CCC. The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. The plan of Salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first among whom are Muslims these profess to hold THE FAITHOF ABRAHAM and TOGETHER WITH US they ADORE THE ONE merciful GOD mankinds judge on the Last day.

Now I have you saying, NO , they DO NOT have the faith of Abraham. Then read the CCC you are in direct conflict with the teachings of the CC.

 

[jam070406]

For the Love of Pete. Here it is! Why are you getting mad at me. All I said is your comment is in DIRECT conflict with the CCC.

Here it is for the Million time. SEE for yourself.

841 CCC. The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. The plan of Salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first among whom are Muslims these profess to hold THE FAITHOF ABRAHAM and TOGETHER WITH US they ADORE THE ONE merciful GOD mankinds judge on the Last day.

Now I have you saying, NO , they DO NOT have the faith of Abraham. Then read the CCC you are in direct conflict with the teachings of the CC.

They can profess to leap buildings in a single bound, or deflect bullets with their bare hands. Doesn’t mean it is true.

 

[Busy_bee]

I totally disagree with you, and so does the teachings of the Catholic Church. They have indeed the Faith of Abraham. Abraham’s faith is in the ONE TRUE GOD.

You said they have belief not faith. I disagee, and so does the teaching of the CCC. Read it.

Just because they do not have the Full understanding of the GOd Of Abraham in no ways denies he is the same God.

They believe in one God. As for whether this God is the one true God is yet to be determined. So I don’t think they have the faith of Abraham completely. They share his belief in one God, but not in who he reveals himself to be. Besides, faith is belief, so why the pleonasm?

Again, what is their proof that this is the God of Abraham? The revelation(?) of an angel? It is too flimsy compared to the many revelations and visions that God’s servants have had of whom Jesus is. And how come nowhere in the old or new testament was it hinted that another (who’s not a spirit) would come after Christ? Muslims are travelling a complete different road, which, if the Christians are right, leads to probably the worst lie and heresy possible. If the christian is to say that he serves the same God the muslims serve, he is forced to admit that this one God can lie and is two-faced. That is unacceptable!!!

841 CCC. The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. The plan of Salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first among whom are Muslims these profess to hold THE FAITHOF ABRAHAM and TOGETHER WITH US they ADORE THE ONE merciful GOD mankinds judge on the Last day.

Notice it says, ONE MERCIFUL GOD. They never said it was the one true merciful God. As I said, that is yet to be ascertained.

 

[rinnie]

They can profess to leap buildings in a single bound, or deflect bullets with their bare hands. Doesn’t mean it is true.

Well the Catholic Church believes them. The Catholic Church said TOGETHER with US they adore the One merciful God.

I am a Roman Catholic and if my Pope who has the authority to speak in the Name of Christ teaches me this is true, how can I not accept it?

I believe in the words of Christ when he said You are Peter and to you I gvie the keys to the Kingdom…

I believe in the words that all authority of heaven and earth has been given to me, and I now give to you to speak in my name. The Pope gives his Apostolic Authority that the CCC is what we are to believe.

Forgive me for holding true to the teachings of my Fathers of the Church. I am only giving to others the truth that has been revealed to me by the power of the Holy Spirit through my Pope.

 

[rinnie]

They believe in one God. As for whether this God is the one true God is yet to be determined. So I don’t think they have the faith of Abraham completely. They share his belief in one God, but not in who he reveals himself to be. Besides, faith is belief, so why the pleonasm?

Again, what is their proof that this is the God of Abraham? The revelation(?) of an angel? It is too flimsy compared to the many revelations and visions that God’s servants have had of whom Jesus is. And how come nowhere in the old or new testament was it hinted that another (who’s not a spirit) would come after Christ? Muslims are travelling a complete different road, which, if the Christians are right, leads to probably the worst lie and heresy possible. If the christian is to say that he serves the same God the muslims serve, he is forced to admit that this one God can lie and is two-faced. That is unacceptable!!!

Notice it says, ONE MERCIFUL GOD. They never said it was the one true merciful God. As I said, that is yet to be ascertained.

Busy Bee you are missing the Point. We do not believe that the ONE TRUE GOD THE GOD OFABRAHAM revealed to them the truth. THe word of GOD says the CHURCH is the PIlar of all truth not Mohamad.

But just because they were misled by a false prophet does not make the GOD of the false prophet false.

Let me put this to you in todays world.

I believe in the One God the Father Almighty the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Is the ONE GOD THE GOD of the TRINITY THE TRUE GOD? Yes he is, of Course he is.

Now I tell you GOD has revealed himself to ME, I can overpower the Pope, listen to me!

Just because I give you a false revelation does it make my GOD, The Father and the SOn and the Holy Spirit False? Of course not!

I am the false TEACHER , but my GOD is the same TRUE GOD, I am teaching in his name a false revelation. BUt GOD never promised us people would not try to do that. I have NO POWER to do so. But I can still try to fool you. Do you see what I am saying?

That is why he said stick to the teachings of the Fathers of the Church. That is why I am RC. the POPE has a direct LINK to CHrist through St Peter.

 

[jam070406]

Well the Catholic Church believes them. The Catholic Church said TOGETHER with US they adore the One merciful God.

I am a Roman Catholic and if my Pope who has the authority to speak in the Name of Christ teaches me this is true, how can I not accept it?

I believe in the words of Christ when he said You are Peter and to you I gvie the keys to the Kingdom…

I believe in the words that all authority of heaven and earth has been given to me, and I now give to you to speak in my name. The Pope gives his Apostolic Authority that the CCC is what we are to believe.

Forgive me for holding true to the teachings of my Fathers of the Church. I am only giving to others the truth that has been revealed to me by the power of the Holy Spirit through my Pope.

The current Pope issued Dominus Iesus and says your relativistic approach is in error.

 

[rinnie]

The current Pope issued Dominus Iesus and says your relativistic approach is in error.

Please give me an exact quote that states that. That is all I am asking. Give me the quote.

ANd Please read the last paragraph before ll The Incarnation Logos…