Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

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Mickey said:
No rinnie. That is exactly the point. You ignored my entire post.

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; **and the spirit of God moved over the waters. **

Let us get right to the point dear rinnie: The Muslims worship a god who is not Triune. They deny God the Son…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is revealed throughout the OT. They received the Koran from a false prophet. Their god …is not my God. Their god…is not the God of Abraham. If you would like to think that they are the same…you have free will to believe so.
It is not an “IF” rinnie. It is truly a type of the Holy Trinity in Gensis 18.

Here is one of the hymns sung on Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.
**Albeit a wanderer, Abraham was given the honor of symbolically hosting the one Lord, in His three hypostases; as hypersubstantial, in the guise of males ."
** (Canon of Midnight Prayer, ode 6 sung on the Sunday of the Paralytic) **

St Cyril of Alexandria and St Ambrose of Milan also interpreted it as a pre-depiction of the Holy Trinity. Others have said it is Christ with two angels.

The Muslims reject all of this.
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I understand completely what you are saying Mickey. BUT instead of us arguing, answer me this, A simple question. IS the GOD of Abraham the ONE TRUE GOD? Yes or No?
 
rinnie said:
By the way it was not Allah who messed up these people it was Muhammad. You better read what you just wrote about Allah the God of Abraham OUR GOD.

It was Muhammad who took the word of God and felt he was a prophet to use the True Word of God and mess up these Peoples thinking.
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In short, there is no being called “Allah” in the sense Muhammad refers to.

I mean come on Rinnie, this is like saying after I invent a religion using bits and pieces of Christianity and then my own saying it was revealed to me by a God called Rinnie, ‘Rinnie is not the one who messed up people. It was Passer’.

While you are not wrong, you are not realizing that there is no God called Rinnie that revealed such things to me.
 
rinnie said:
I understand completely what you are saying Mickey. BUT instead of us arguing, answer me this, A simple question. IS the GOD of Abraham the ONE TRUE GOD? Yes or No?
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HE IS!

But the Muslims, although they claim to want to follow him, follow an entirely different non-existent being with an entirely different set of commandments and divine revelation.

So do they want to follow the God of Abraham? YES!

Do they follow the God of Abraham? NO!
 
Mickey said:
No rinnie. That is exactly the point. You ignored my entire post.

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; **and the spirit of God moved over the waters. **

Let us get right to the point dear rinnie: The Muslims worship a god who is not Triune. They deny God the Son…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is revealed throughout the OT. They received the Koran from a false prophet. Their god …is not my God. Their god…is not the God of Abraham. If you would like to think that they are the same…you have free will to believe so.
It is not an “IF” rinnie. It is truly a type of the Holy Trinity in Gensis 18.

Here is one of the hymns sung on Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.
**Albeit a wanderer, Abraham was given the honor of symbolically hosting the one Lord, in His three hypostases; as hypersubstantial, in the guise of males ."
** (Canon of Midnight Prayer, ode 6 sung on the Sunday of the Paralytic) **

St Cyril of Alexandria and St Ambrose of Milan also interpreted it as a pre-depiction of the Holy Trinity. Others have said it is Christ with two angels.

The Muslims reject all of this.
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ANd by the way Mickey I totally agree that the Trinity is what Abraham saw. But I also must say there is no way I would know that until Jesus Christ through his Church made it know to me.

Outside of the Church there is no Salvation

CCC This affirmation is not AIMED at those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and his Church.

Read 847 of the CCC everyone who needs to see my point.

Read 847, and 48.

Now guys PLEASE forgive me:blush: But I was good today, I spend 4 hours in a meeting for our Council in my Church and went to 4:00 Mass, and now feel a NEED to go upstairs and watch TeBow, You know TEBOW the one who threw my Steeler’s our of the Playoffs:crying: but its okay I am getting over it. But now he better make us LOOK GOOD!!

Go Tebow!!

Love you guys, especially you Mickey you know you got my heart you lil devil;)
 
rinnie said:
You know TEBOW the one who threw my Steeler’s our of the Playoffs:crying: but its okay I am getting over it. But now he better make us LOOK GOOD!!

Go Tebow!!
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Wow! Tebow and the Broncos look like a very bad football team. I can’t believe they beat Pittsburgh last week. I have to believe that even a Steeler team with all those injuries would have been a better game today. Oh well.
 
Mickey said:
Wow! Tebow and the Broncos look like a very bad football team. I can’t believe they beat Pittsburgh last week. I have to believe that even a Steeler team with all those injuries would have been a better game today. Oh well.
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I know, and after yesterday its more of a mystery, maybe more then the mystery of the Church:p
 
Mickey said:
He is. And He was revealed to Abraham through Jesus Christ. And the muslims reject this. Therefore they do not follow the one true God.
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I don’t care Mickey the full understanding of the Trinity is not revealed by Abraham it is revealed through the Church.

Then why does the CCC 262 State that the Incarnation of Gods’s Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantioal with the Father which means that in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.

The O.T does not present or teach of the Trinity in detail, IT is (name removed by moderator)lied… IT is the N.T that it is more CLEARLY REVEALED.

The Holy Spirit is at work with the Father and the Son from the beginning I do not deny this. But what I deny is it was truly revealed by Abraham in the O.T. as you claim. It is by the SOn’s redeeming Incarnation the Spirit is REVEALED and Given, recognized and welcomed as a person. Read it, 685 and 686 of the CCC.
 
Mickey said:
So then you are claiming invincible ignorance?
Peace and prayers to you rinnie. Christ is in our midst!
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I am claiming nothing, I am quoting what the Pope has taught us through our faith. Which in part claims we are not held responsible by God for something we do not have the Grace given by his Holy Spirit to know.

If you feel that we are held bound by God on what we cannot comprehend or understand or meaning that was not given then that is your right. But I truly disagree and agree with the Pope that we have a merciful God and he will judge us by our works done by our heart, and using all the grace we are given. He will not hold us accountable for things we were not taught or do not understand.
 
Mickey said:
So then you are claiming invincible ignorance?
Peace and prayers to you rinnie. Christ is in our midst!
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I am claiming nothing, I am quoting what the Pope has taught us through our faith. Which in part claims we are not held responsible by God for something we do not have the Grace given by his Holy Spirit to know.

If you feel that we are held bound by God on what we cannot comprehend or understand or meaning that was not given then that is your right. But I truly disagree and agree with the Pope that we have a merciful God and he will judge us by our works done by our heart, and using all the grace we are given. He will not hold us accountable for things we were not taught or do not understand.
 
Mickey said:
No rinnie. That is exactly the point. You ignored my entire post.

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; **and the spirit of God moved over the waters. **

Let us get right to the point dear rinnie: The Muslims worship a god who is not Triune. They deny God the Son…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is revealed throughout the OT. They received the Koran from a false prophet. Their god …is not my God. Their god…is not the God of Abraham. If you would like to think that they are the same…you have free will to believe so.
It is not an “IF” rinnie. It is truly a type of the Holy Trinity in Gensis 18.

Here is one of the hymns sung on Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches.
**Albeit a wanderer, Abraham was given the honor of symbolically hosting the one Lord, in His three hypostases; as hypersubstantial, in the guise of males ."
** (Canon of Midnight Prayer, ode 6 sung on the Sunday of the Paralytic) **

St Cyril of Alexandria and St Ambrose of Milan also interpreted it as a pre-depiction of the Holy Trinity. Others have said it is Christ with two angels.

The Muslims reject all of this.
Click to expand...
Mickey where did I ever say the Muslim God is Triune. That is not the question that was asked. The question asked is, Is the Muslim God Allah the same God as the God of Abraham and our God and the answer is yes.

I totaly agree that they received the Koran from a false prophet. But their God is the God of Abraham and the GOd of Abraham is our God Mickey.
 
jakasaki said:
Rinnie, I understand what you wrote here in the above quote, but that is not what muslims believe.

You already know they believe that their koran IS the true word of God, although God never spoke to Mohamad.
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Again that is not what the question at hand was. I never once quoted what Muslims believe.

The only thing I said is they believe in the One True God the God of Abraham. That is what I am told they believe.

I never once said I believe that God spoke to Mohamad, why would the Holy Spirit teach different truths.

I do not deny they have a differnt gospel then us. None of this is what we are talking about.

The question was do we all pray to the same God, As I repeated a thousand times now, Yes I believe we do.

You must remember there are Christian Muslims. Not all are the extreme that we have heard about. Many are taking the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ and accepting what is given to them.

How in the world can they ever become a part of the Church of our dear Lord Jesus if we refuse to pray with them and reach out to them the good news.

I just do not understand you guys here at all.
 
ANd the reality of the matter at hand is this, We are growing as a Catholic faith and many Jews and Muslims are comming to understand and embrace the Catholic Church.

Christ predicted this, he said the good news would reach all of the corners of the world and this is happening.
 
Rinnie ~

What’s a Christian Muslim…?? I’ve never heard that phrase and what to they believe?

Thanks much,
Pam
 
rinnie said:
I don’t care Mickey
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Obviously.
rinnie said:
the full understanding of the Trinity is not revealed by Abraham it is revealed through the Church.
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It is revealed in the OT and the NT.
rinnie said:
The Holy Spirit is at work with the Father and the Son from the beginning I do not deny this.
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Exactly.
rinnie said:
But what I deny is it was truly revealed by Abraham in the O.T.
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It is right there in black and white throughout the OT. Christ is everywhere in the OT. You may deny it if you wish.
 
rinnie said:
I am quoting what the Pope has taught us through our faith.
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I have not yet seen where your Pope claims to encourage the faithful to pray with Muslims. I have seen some contradictory statements…and some statements where he affirms that Muslims pray to the God of Abraham (in the CCC). But the CCC is not binding on me…it is not an infallible document for Roman Catholics…and I believe he is flat out wrong with his opinion on this.
 
Mickey said:
You say they intend to pray to the God of Abraham and therefore they are praying to the God of Abraham. That does not make sense to me.
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Why not? What else would determine who it is they’re praying to, if not who they intend to pray to? Again, no one here - and certainly not Catholic teaching - denies that they are in grievous error over their rejection of the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. That just shows they don’t fully know the God they pray to.
sedonaman said:
Why wouldn’t the same principle apply to praying with Muslims?
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Receiving the Holy Eucharist requires total unity. Praying with others is definitely not on the same level.

For instance, Protestants are welcome to attend and participate in Holy Mass, but they cannot receive Communion. Also, Catholics can - for just reason - attend a Protestant service but may not receive their communion. See? Different standards apply.
Mickey said:
Does St Paul indicate that it is not necessary to believe in Christ or the Holy Spirit?
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Necessary for what? Of course it’s necessary for salvation, but is it necessary for God to hear one’s prayers?
Mickey said:
Muslims do not pray to the Trinitarian God. Hence, they are not praying to the one true God.
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I know I’m repeating myself, but Muslims are praying to the Trinitarian God even though they don’t realize it and think they aren’t, because the One True God *is *Triune.
boleyn2010 said:
I would like to stir things up over this point:eek:
**As Christians we beleve that God (of Abraham) inspired Holy Scripture.
Muslims believe the koran to be inspired by Allah
Are God and Allah the same? (As you are obviously convinced they are)
**Consider this.
The Bible tells us that God sent His only Begotten Son, Jesus, to save the world.
The koran states " …it is not worthy of Allah that He should take to Himself a son" Sura 19: 88-92
God begot a Son. Allah did not. Hmmm.
There is a lie somewhere
As a Catholic I wholeheartedly believe that our Bible was inspired by God. And God cannot and does NOT lie. Therefore the lie is in the koran.
The father of all lies is Satan. The koran (inspired by Allah) contains this lie.
Therefore the koran is inspired by Satan.aka Allah.
So NO! GOD and Allah are Not the same God.
They may believe in one god but he is in no wise the One True God.
Peace be with you
Francis
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“Allah” is not a name. It is the Arabic word for “God,” so Arabic-speaking Christians pray to “Allah” as well. Thus much of your reply is nonsense: you’re saying things like, “God begot a Son. God did not. Hmmm,” and “God and God are Not the same God.”

The lie is in the Qur’an, because God does have a Son. Muslims mistakenly think God, in whom they believe and to whom they pray, has no Son and they are wrong. It’s just that simple.

By the way, Francis, you do know that the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches (CCC 841) that Muslims and Christians worship the same God, right? CCC 841 quotes Lumen Gentium, which is from an ecumenical council. You really can’t get any more authoritative than that.
 
Mickey said:
I have not yet seen where your Pope claims to encourage the faithful to pray with Muslims. I have seen some contradictory statements…and some statements where he affirms that Muslims pray to the God of Abraham (in the CCC).** But the CCC is not binding on me…it is not an infallible document for Roman Catholics…and I believe he is flat out wrong with his opinion on this**.
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It is an infallible document. All of the bishops participated in compiling the CCC, so from what I understand that would make it infallible because of the universal magisterium. Now I’m dodging back out of this thread :runs away:.
 
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