Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[Fone_Bone_2001]

It is an infallible document. All of the bishops participated in compiling the CCC, so from what I understand that would make it infallible because of the universal magisterium. Now I’m dodging back out of this thread :runs away:.

Actually, I’m confident this is untrue.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does *not *constitute an exercise of the Church’s “ordinary and universal Magisterium.” Some things it contains - i.e. reiteration of basic Christological and Marian dogmas, or teachings on Sacraments - are infallible; others are not. Something is not infallible merely because it is part of the CCC.

That said, the source for CCC 841 is the Second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church… in other words, a universally binding teaching of an ecumenical council. Thus it could be infallible, but I have no idea if the bishops of the council intended to teach infallibly when they wrote Lumen Gentium, so I don’t know if CCC 841’s content is infallible or not.

 

[LoyalChristian]

So there are many people divided on this issue, I have realized. On a different forum, one person who opposed prayers with Muslims asks why Do Catholic Church call the CHurch the Mother Church, Isn’t it Christ Church? I believed Christ to be founder of the RCC, as I was taught. This issue came up because the Qu’ran mentions Mary and Jesus, but Mary is a different Mary and Jesus is not the same Jesus we know.

 

[Mickey]

Why not? What else would determine who it is they’re praying to,

Um…the fact that they are not praying to the Trinitarian God…which means they are not praying to the God of Abraham.

That just shows they don’t fully know the God they pray to.

And hence…are not praying to the one true God.

Of course it’s necessary for salvation, but is it necessary for God to hear one’s prayers?

We do not have the mind of God. Before I would even pray for a Muslim, I would have to confer with my Spiritual Father.

We cannot force the Lord to mercy with prayer! For our God is a jealous God (Ex. 20:5); The Lord is righteous and loves righteousness (Ps. 10:7). There have been cases when He Himself forbade prayer for certain persons: He said to His prophet Jeremiah about His people: *do not pray for these people, and do not ask that they be shown mercy, and do not pray, do not approach Me concerning them, for I shall not hear you *(Jer. 7:16).

The prophet did not dare to disobey the word of the Lord by justifying his prayer for them as love for mankind.
(Orthodox Life Vol. 26 #1)

I know I’m repeating myself, but Muslims are praying to the Trinitarian God even though they don’t realize it and think they aren’t, because the One True God *is *Triune.

And I know I am repeating myself…but they do not accept the Triune God…they do not pray to the Triune God…and so they do not worship the Triune God.

 

[Mickey]

It is an infallible document

It is not.

 

[TMC]

Um…the fact that they are not praying to the Trinitarian God…which means they are not praying to the God of Abraham.
And hence…are not praying to the one true God.
We do not have the mind of God. Before I would even pray for a Muslim, I would have to confer with my Spiritual Father.

We cannot force the Lord to mercy with prayer! For our God is a jealous God (Ex. 20:5); The Lord is righteous and loves righteousness (Ps. 10:7). There have been cases when He Himself forbade prayer for certain persons: He said to His prophet Jeremiah about His people: *do not pray for these people, and do not ask that they be shown mercy, and do not pray, do not approach Me concerning them, for I shall not hear you *(Jer. 7:16).

The prophet did not dare to disobey the word of the Lord by justifying his prayer for them as love for mankind.
(Orthodox Life Vol. 26 #1)
And I know I am repeating myself…but they do not accept the Triune God…they do not pray to the Triune God…and so they do not worship the Triune God.

Is it your contention that Abraham understood the Triune nature of God? If so, why didn’t he pass that on to his descendants? Why is that not recorded anywhere in the Hebrew scripture? How did that knowledge get lost?

 

[Mickey]

Is it your contention that Abraham understood the Triune nature of God?

Is your contention that he did not understand it?

Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:56

 

[TMC]

Is your contention that he did not understand it?

Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:56

Yes, it is. Again, if Abraham did understand the Trinity, why did he not share that information with anyone? Why would Abraham let that knowledge be lost for 1800 years?

Even if Abraham knew of the Trinity, it is certainly true that the Jews that lived in the time between Abraham and Christ did not know of the Trinity - did they not worship God, either? Did David and Solomon not worship the true God? What about St. Joseph?

More basically, why do you believe that whether one understands the Trinity is the basis of deciding if one worships God or not? When little children pray to God does He ignore their prayers because they do know of the Trinity?

 

[Mickey]

if Abraham did understand the Trinity, why did he not share that information with anyone?

What are you talking about? Christ and the Trinity are throughout the OT. Nothing was lost. Nothing was hidden.
Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:56

Even if Abraham knew of the Trinity

He did.

it is certainly true that the Jews that lived in the time between Abraham and Christ did not know of the Trinity - did they not worship God, either?

When you start the thread…we can talk about the Jews.

Did David and Solomon not worship the true God?

St David heard the heavenly Father speaking to His Consubstantial Son:
The Lord said unto my Lord (Ps. 109:1; Acts 2:34).

More basically, why do you believe that whether one understands the Trinity is the basis of deciding if one worships God or not?

Thr true God is the Triune God.

When little children pray to God does He ignore their prayers because they do know of the Trinity?

Because they do know the Trinity?

Are you comparing the prayers of little Christian children to the prayers of muslims? Sheesh!!!

 

[LoyalChristian]

Muslims teaching children to become better Christians. LOL I read that thread not too long ago. We can’t be good Christians if we don’t pray to Allah. C’mon now people get with the times.

 

[TMC]

What are you talking about? Christ and the Trinity are throughout the OT. Nothing was lost. Nothing was hidden.
Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:56
He did.
When you start the thread…we can talk about the Jews.

St David heard the heavenly Father speaking to His Consubstantial Son:
The Lord said unto my Lord (Ps. 109:1; Acts 2:34).
Thr true God is the Triune God.
Because they do know the Trinity?

Are you comparing the prayers of little Christian children to the prayers of muslims? Sheesh!!!

What are you talking about? The Jews of Christ’s time did not believe in the Trinity, and neither do the Jews of today. So how can you claim that Abraham was a Trinitarian, or that David or Solomon or Joseph or any other biblical Jew was a Trinitarian? To say they were is not only ahistorical, its frankly kind of silly. Do you seriously believe that Jews lost the Trinitarian belief sometime just before Christ came so that early Christians had to redevelop the doctrine? That makes no sense whatsoever, and is completely unsupported by Scripture or history. No wonder you don’t want to discuss it.

 

[Mickey]

The Jews of Christ’s time did not believe in the Trinity, and neither do the Jews of today.

Exactly…even though it has/had been revealed to them…they rejected Christ and the Holy Spirit.

So how can you claim that Abraham was a Trinitarian, or that David or Solomon or Joseph or any other biblical Jew was a Trinitarian?

What are you talking about? Christ was revealed!!! Do you need to see all the instances that Christ and the Holy Spirit were revealed in the OT??? This has been shown to you already.

Do you seriously believe that Jews lost the Trinitarian belief sometime just before Christ came so that early Christians had to redevelop the doctrine?

All the OT signs were there for the pharisees/saducees/scribes to see…they rejected Him then…and now.

That makes no sense whatsoever, and is completely unsupported by Scripture or history.

Nonsense. You are very confused.

“If you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me"
[John 5:46]

Now I will say it one more time…you have changed the subject to the jews. This post is about syncrestic prayers with muslims. Start a new thread…or I will ask that it be split off.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Now I will say it one more time…you have changed the subject to the jews. This post is about syncrestic prayers with muslims. Start a new thread…or I will ask that it be split off.

Actually, the topic of Jewish prayer and worship is relevant to the question of whether Muslims and Christians have the same God, because it’s part of a reductio ad absurdum argument:

(1) If Muslims’ God is not the One True God because they deny the Trinity, then the God to whom one who denies the Trinity prays cannot be the One True God.
(2) Jews today deny the Trinity.
(3) Therefore, if Islam’s denial of the Trinity necessarily means their God is a false god, then Jews today pray to a false god as well.
(4) But Jews today do not have a false god.
(5) Therefore denial of the Trinity does not mean one’s God is not the One True God.

Again, this is relevant because it is an argument for our conclusion here. How would you answer the above argument, Mickey?

The most logical position on the Jews seems to me that obviously they have the One True God, although they are in great error in refusing to recognize that He is Triune…

 

[Mickey]

(The most logical position on the Jews seems to me that obviously they have the One True God, although they are in great error in refusing to recognize that He is Triune…

He cannot be the one true God, if he is not the Triune God.

The muslims and the Jews are in the exact same position. They deny the Trinitarian God…therefore they are not praying to the God of Abraham…the one true God.

I and the Father are one.
John 10:30

 

[rinnie]

I have not yet seen where your Pope claims to encourage the faithful to pray with Muslims. I have seen some contradictory statements…and some statements where he affirms that Muslims pray to the God of Abraham (in the CCC). But the CCC is not binding on me…it is not an infallible document for Roman Catholics…and I believe he is flat out wrong with his opinion on this.

The CCC is an official teaching of the CC and is universally authoritive and a valid and ligitimated instrument for Ecclesial Communion.

The Pope has the Power from God given to him by the Holy Spriit to teach in his name.

I showed you the official teaching fo the CCC. Because you refuse to accept that is not my fault.

There in no where in the O.T that CLEARLY showed GOD as the Father, the SOn and the Holy Spirit ONE GOD in 3 persons. It is not clearly defined until the Church.

I never denied it existed in the O.T. I said it was never cleary taught. You claim that it is, please show me where it is clearly taught in the O.T that Our Lord is made of 3 distinct persons in ONE GOD. You confinue to show me that Abraham saw the Lord with 2 angles. You claim that CLEARLY shows and explains us the Trinity. Come on Mickey. This is a stretch would you not agree. IF it was clear that Abraham saw the God the Father, GOd the Son and God the Holy Spirit why did it say Our Lord and 2 angels then?

Also when you claim to deny the teachings of the CCC you are indeed claiming to have more authority then the CC. So the questions begs to be asked where is your authority.

The Pope and the Bishops in succesion with him are given the authority to teach and preach in the name of Christ straight from Christ himself. Please show me where you have the power of the Holy Spirit to teach in his name, until then, how can you deny the authority given to the CC?

 

[Angela77]

I think it’s really nice that they are praying together. Finally, some inter-religion tolerance!

 

[rinnie]

He cannot be the one true God, if he is not the Triune God.

The muslims and the Jews are in the exact same position. They deny the Trinitarian God…therefore they are not praying to the God of Abraham…the one true God.

I and the Father are one.
John 10:30

Please show me official teachings from your Church then Mickey or the Early Church Fathers that state that because Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity, they cannot follow the GOD of Abraham? That their denial of the Trinity makes the God of Abraham not the One True God.

I have showed you official Church teachings where the Pope disagrees with you on both accounts.

I showed you where as long as we pray to the God of Abraham with then it does not go against the teachings of Christ. I see no teachings of Christ that say that because they do not accept the Trinity that makes the God of Abraham not the One true God. You turn to show the official teachings of your Church then.

 

[rinnie]

I think it’s really nice that they are praying together. Finally, some inter-religion tolerance!

ANd when we pray to the God Of Abraham together, it is then that the reality of the Trinity can be given to them by the Grace of the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity is a complex teachings, and none of us fully understand it. You must have the mind of God to truly grasp the full meaning.

All we know that we have ONE GOD, The Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is quite complex do you not agree.

It is by his grace that he continues to reveal this completely, until then it is still quite a Mystery of our faith.

 

[Mickey]

I showed you the official teaching fo the CCC.

It is not an infallible document according to your Church.

I never denied it existed in the O.T. I said it was never cleary taught.

Christ is everywhere in the OT. It is quite clear.

You claim that it is, please show me where it is clearly taught in the O.T

I have already given you many examples. If I were to try to name them all…it would take numerous pages. I am sorry you cannot accept it.

why did it say Our Lord and 2 angels then?

That is another interpretation…but it does not change the fact that Christ was revealed to Abraham.

 

[Mickey]

Please show me official teachings from your Church

It is called “Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition”.

I have showed you official Church teachings where the Pope disagrees with you on both accounts.

I am not obligated to accept the opinion of your pope…neither are you…as evidenced by the vast number of Roman Catholic who agree with me on this matter.

I showed you where as long as we pray to the God of Abraham with then it does not go against the teachings of Christ.

But they do not pray to the God of Abraham.

 

[Mickey]

You turn to show the official teachings of your Church then.

Aside from the multiple passages of Scripture…there are numerous teaching in Tradition…that would take volumes and volumes.

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God’s grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: “It is no fair to take the children’s bread and to cast it to the dogs”. Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs.

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: “Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision”. Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? “But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God”.
St John Chrysostom