Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[rinnie]

Aside from the multiple passages of Scripture…there are numerous teaching in Tradition…that would take volumes and volumes.

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God’s grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: “It is no fair to take the children’s bread and to cast it to the dogs”. Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs.

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: “Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision”. Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? “But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God”.
St John Chrysostom

Mickey where is the SS or ST that states that is a Jew or Muslim does not accept the Trinity then that makes the God of Abraham that they follow a false god? You still have not shown this to me.

And by the way he is not talking about all Jews for goodness sakes. Many Jews have turned to the Church and many continue to follow in record numbers.

 

[rinnie]

Aside from the multiple passages of Scripture…there are numerous teaching in Tradition…that would take volumes and volumes.

But do not be surprised that I called the Jews pitiable. They really are pitiable and miserable. When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves. Although those Jews had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs; we who were dogs received the strength, through God’s grace, to put aside the irrational nature which was ours and to rise to the honor of sons. How do I prove this? Christ said: “It is no fair to take the children’s bread and to cast it to the dogs”. Christ was speaking to the Canaanite woman when He called the Jews children and the Gentiles dogs.

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: “Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision”. Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs? Do you wish to find out how we, who at first were dogs, became children? “But to as many as received him, he gave the power of becoming sons of God”.
St John Chrysostom

Nothing in this scripture comes even close to him saying if you do not accept the Trinity, and you pray to the God of Abraham you are praying to a false God.

All this scripture shows is how the Jews and the Gentiles became equal and were both given the Grace from God to be brought into the Church of Christ. This does not talk about all Jews. If so it would include the Apostles for goodness sakes.

 

[rinnie]

It is called “Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition”.
I am not obligated to accept the opinion of your pope…neither are you…as evidenced by the vast number of Roman Catholic who agree with me on this matter.
But they do not pray to the God of Abraham.

Mickey the CCC is not the Opinion of the Pope, it is an official teaching. Do you not see the difference. And you are not correct, I am obligated to accept a official teaching of my Pope.

 

[rinnie]

You continue to state that Christ is quite clear in the O.T. but you refuse to show me ONE place when it is crystal Clear that the scripture is about Jesus Christ the Son of God the 2nd person in the Trinity.

 

[rinnie]

As stated Mickey refused to give concrete evidence that the Trinitarian nature was revealed in the O.T. As I stated it was hinted at but never revealed. Here is my proof.

As we know Abraham was given a greater knowledge and greater intimacy with God then any of his predecessors had since the fall.

Then when GOd revaled himslef to Moses in the burning bush, he gave Moses a fuller revelation of the divine name, which had been withheld from mankind until then.

As God said to Moses I appreare to Abraham, to Issac and to Jacob as GOD ALMIGHTY but my name the LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself know to them. Exodus 6:3.

ANd it is throughtout salvation history God’s Trinitarian nature was HINTED at but not REVEALED in the O.T.

Many of the centre doctrines of Christianity including the Trinitarian nature of God, the Divinity of Jesus and the perpetual virginity of Mary only gradually became clear in the centuries following Jesus’ death. As Jesus himself said I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. WHen the Spirit of truth comes he will guide you all into the truth.

Same with the Missianic prophecies in the O.T. often contained veiled info about the Missiah that only became Clrar through the inspiration of the Talmudic sages. of the Gospel writer or through the life of Jesus himself.

As I stated there was never a clear interpretain of the Trinity until long after the death of our dear Lord.

 

[Mickey]

M You still have not shown this to me.

I have shown you over and over again…but you do not have the eyes to see it. I am sorry.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey the CCC is not the Opinion of the Pope, it is an official teaching.

I am sorry rinnie…it is not an infallible teaching…your fellow Catholics will tell you that.

 

[Mickey]

You continue to state that Christ is quite clear in the O.T. but you refuse to show me ONE place

Go back and read rinnie. I showed you many places. And there are more places more numerous to count. Jesus Christ says it best:

John 5:45-46
For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?

 

[Mickey]

As stated Mickey refused to give concrete evidence

I think Mickey gave a wonderful account of evidence.

Then when GOd revaled himslef to Moses in the burning bush

That was Christ. God the Father is revealed to no one. More evidence!

As I stated there was never a clear interpretain of the Trinity until long after the death of our dear Lord .

Of course I disagree. The Holy Prophets knew Christ in the OT. And of course the Word was made flesh in the NT. But let us fast forward dear rinnie. If as you say, muslims and jews were kept in the fog about the true nature of the Trinitarian God (which I do not agree that they were)…even for thousands of years from the OT until today. They still consciously reject Christ today! Therefore I submit that they are not worshipping the one, true , God…knowingly!

Back to the subject of this thread…you can pray with muslims if you like…you have free will to do that.

 

[jam070406]

What’s with all the talk of the OT? The Jews of today are not the Jews of then. Islam didn’t exist.
Are we to believe that the Talmud and Koran are inspired by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Mickey]

You continue to state that Christ is quite clear in the O.T.

Indeed!

Remember the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? At the end, the rich man begs that Abraham return to help his brothers repent? Abraham says that they had Moses and the Prophets to listen to. What is meant by this? It means that Moses and the Prophets revealed Christ…but they would not listen. And we see this is true because of what Christ says in John 5.

Luke 16:28-31
And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

John 5:45-46
For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?

 

[jam070406]

What would the object of prayer between Catholics and Islam be?

 

[Mickey]

What would the object of prayer between Catholics and Islam be?

That is what I have been trying to decipher. :ehh:

 

[israelcatholic]

The muslims and the Jews are in the exact same position. They deny the Trinitarian God…therefore they are not praying to the God of Abraham…the one true God.

Equating Jews and Muslims in this respect is ludicrous. There is a big difference between them. The key to understanding the difference lies in remembering the historical perspective of how the three religions were born and developed:

Judaism > Christianity > Islam

True, Jews (in general, but with more and more exceptions) deny the Trinity, but you could call this a blind spot in their faith. As the original recipients of God’s revelation, Jews fully believe in the God of Abraham who revealed Himself in the Old Testament. So we are talking about a failure to recognize the fullness of God’s revelation. Coming to a recognition of the Incarnation and Trinity would thus perfect and complete their Jewish faith, without any need to throw out their Jewish heritage.

Muslims, on the other hand, are another story: First, they claim that both the Old Testament and New Testament have been falsified, so they don’t even really believe in any part of God’s original revelation. By denying the validity of the OT, they may profess to believe in the God of Abraham (as the Catechism says), but actually there is already a problem with this claim

In addition, Muslims add the teachings of Muhammad in the Qur’an as most authoritative, and claim that these were revealed by God. Now these teachings explicitly deny the Trinity, Incarnation, Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross, etc… So for a Muslim to come to the truth of the Christian faith, he would have to explicitly reject the teachings of Islam.

It seems to me that there is a big difference between the people to whom the Messiah was promised and, though they still fail to recognize Him, have still a certain openness and expectation of the Messiah in their own Biblical faith, and on the other hand the members of another religion whose basic tenets explicitly deny all the pillars of God’s biblical revelation.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

What would the object of prayer between Catholics and Islam be?

Not between “Catholics and Islam.” Rather, between Catholics and Muslims. Huge difference.

Equating Jews and Muslims in this respect is ludicrous. There is a big difference between them.

Please be responsible about the quote function: I did not write or post the words you attributed to me. They came from poster Mickey, in reply 221. Thank you.

 

[Mickey]

Equating Jews and Muslims in this respect is ludicrous.

I don’t believe this is ludicrous. They both deny the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ.

As the original recipients of God’s revelation, Jews fully believe in the God of Abraham who revealed Himself in the Old Testament.

But the God of Abraham is the Trinitarian God. They consciously reject this…and so they reject the one, true, God.

So we are talking about a failure to recognize the fullness of God’s revelation.

We are talking about the conscious rejection of the the Trinitarian God…the one, true God.

Coming to a recognition of the Incarnation and Trinity would thus perfect and complete their Jewish faith, without any need to throw out their Jewish heritage.

Indeed. I do not know who they worship right now…but if they accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God…and they accept the true nature of God as the Trinitarian God…then they will be Christian. Christians are the new Israel. I do not accept that somehow they are merely an incomplete Jew.

It seems to me that there is a big difference between the people to whom the Messiah was promised and, though they still fail to recognize Him, have still a certain openness and expectation of the Messiah in their own Biblical faith, and on the other hand the members of another religion whose basic tenets explicitly deny all the pillars of God’s biblical revelation.

In the end…they both deny the Divinity of Christ and the true nature of God.

 

[rinnie]

I have shown you over and over again…but you do not have the eyes to see it. I am sorry.

No my eyes are good Mickey, quite well actually. It is just what my eyes read are making what you claim in direct conflict with the word of God. You said the Holy Spirit was clearly revaled to us and Abraham in Gensis. You are sadly mistaken.

Either you are correct and Abraham was well aware of the Holy Spirit. or as I must do, I will take the word of God over you. ANd as I showed point blank you are in direct conflict with the word of God. Let me show you once more.

You continue to deny the scripture that was given to you.

Exodus 6:2 ANd the Lord spoke to Moses saying I am the Lord that appeared to Abraham to Isaac and to Jocob, by the NAME of GOD ALMIGHTY and my name ADONAI I DID NOT SHOW THEM.

You said he did, God said he did not. Now if you are correct and that scripture is a CLEAR understanding of the Trinity why did Abraham not know it???

 

[jam070406]

Not between “Catholics and Islam.” Rather, between Catholics and Muslims. Huge difference.

Please be responsible about the quote function: I did not write or post the words you attributed to me. They came from poster Mickey, in reply 221. Thank you.

Ok, what would the object of prayer between those that worship the one true God and those that worship a made up god from the Koran be? We believe there is only peace in Jesus (Prince of peace), they believe peace is by making the whole world Islam. (If necessary, by sword)

 

[jam070406]

I don’t believe this is ludicrous. They both deny the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ.
But the God of Abraham is the Trinitarian God. They consciously reject this…and so they reject the one, true, God.
We are talking about the conscious rejection of the the Trinitarian God…the one, true God.
Indeed. I do not know who they worship right now…but if they accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God…and they accept the true nature of God as the Trinitarian God…then they will be Christian. Christians are the new Israel. I do not accept that somehow they are merely an incomplete Jew.
In the end…they both deny the Divinity of Christ and the true nature of God.

It seems the Fathers, such as St. John Chrysostom, taught this.

 

[Mickey]

You said the Holy Spirit was clearly revaled to us and Abraham in Gensis. You are sadly mistaken.

Actually…the Holy Spirit was revealed earlier…in Gensis 1.

I will take the word of God over you.

I am merely staying to the Word of God. You reject that. You have decided to follow the word of John Paul II. That’s okay if your conscience is good with that.

ANd as I showed point blank you are in direct conflict with the word of God.

You have not shown such a thing. I have shown that Christ and the Holy Spirit are throughout the OT. Now please stop making things up and please stop insulting me.

why did Abraham not know it???

Abraham knew it for sure. You are ignoring everything I post. Please stop responding if you are going to continue to make things up. Read post # 239 again.

**John 5:45-46
**For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?

I and the Father are one.
John 10:30