J
jam070406
Guest
Lumen Gentium. And I don’t think it’s even the exact wording.
- Status
M
Mickey
Guest
J
jam070406
Guest
Yes. Those that acknowledge the Creator (who is the Trinity)
are included in the plan of salvation. (The gift of Faith in the Gospel, the death and resurrection of Jesus, which results in belief in the Trinity)
M
Mickey
Guest
I would like to see an accurate translation from the Latin.
I think it is interesting that it says, …**these profess to hold **the faith of Abraham…"
It does not say that they indeed hold the faith of Abraham. **
**
J
jam070406
Guest
Exactly.I would like to see an accurate translation from the Latin.
I think it is interesting that it says, …**these profess to hold **the faith of Abraham…"
It does not say that they indeed hold the faith of Abraham. **
It also says, those the ackowlegde THE Creator. Not A Creator.
THE Creator is Father, Son & Holy Spirit.
M
Mickey
Guest
M
Mickey
Guest
Thanks!
R
rinnie
Guest
Why??? You are going to disagree with it anyway. But for the sake of the Truth and my promise to my Dear Lord I will show you the truth written by my Pope.I would like to see an accurate translation from the Latin.
I think it is interesting that it says, …**these profess to hold **the faith of Abraham…"
It does not say that they indeed hold the faith of Abraham. **
But even more for my fellow Catholic brothers and sisters who need to hear, read and learn the truth for themself.
Nostra Aetate, Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions.
Appendix Two Dialogue with Muslims from the point of view of the Catholic Church: Bases, aims experineces.
Basic Common Beliefs
In their basic beliefs Christians MUSLIMS have MUCH in common. They BELIEVE in GOD who is the Creator Provider, Merciful, ALL powerful and FINAL JUDGE of all Human Beings. Jews Christians and Muslims somehow TRACE their FAITH BACK TO ABRAHAM.
How can they trace their Faith back to Abraham if they do not have the faith of Abraham?
I
J
jam070406
Guest
They don’t have the Faith of Abraham, as much as they attempt to link themselves to Abraham. They have a set of false beliefs that date to the 7th century.
B
Busy_bee
Guest
B
Busy_bee
Guest
O. k, here’s what I know.
They have a concept of the trinity consisting of God, Mary and one other person (I don’t know if it’s the spirit or mohammed, but it’s one of them).
I only know when Jesus said, “before Abraham was I AM”. Is this what you are referring to?
M
Mickey
Guest
I think most of your Catholic brethren are cognizant of the truth…and it does not coincide with what you are arguing here.
Nostra Aetate? It has been mentioned that Nostra Aetate aped an opinion that was written in a non-magisterial letter by Pope Gregory VII.
Exactly…they can’t trace it back…because they do not worship the God of Abraham.
B
Busy_bee
Guest
Wait, I may have misunderstood you. Were you saying that JEHOVAH"S WITNESSES follow the teachings of Christ? Yes, they do. But they believe he is a lesser God and that the trinity is an idea from the catholic church and is not Truth. This is why they are not christians. (You know, Quicumque and all…)
In Genesis, God said “let us make man in …” ‘Us’ here refers to the trinity. In fact, the whole story of creation is punctuated with god speaking in the plural.
Also in [BIBLEDRB]Gen 1:1-3[/BIBLEDRB]
God (the father) speaks, while the Spirit of God hovers over the waters. (Yes, I think it’s the Spirit that is the third person, not mohammed, sorry).
The Psalms, the prophesies that Jesus referred to (even while on the cross!) are in the old testament, Rinnee, so there’s definitely proof of Jesus as the son of God if you know how to read between the lines.
Jesus referred to himself as the son of man on purpose. However once he put it to the israelites, but they didn’t figure it out. He said if David referred to the messiah as Lord, then how can the messiah be David’s descendant? At this point, they should have thought of the prophesies - mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace??? They should have understood his divinity and Lordship.
I hope I haven’t veered off the point…
B
Busy_bee
Guest
I think most of your Catholic brethren are cognizant of the truth…and it does not coincide with what you are arguing here.
Nostra Aetate? It has been mentioned that Nostra Aetate aped an opinion that was written in a non-magisterial letter by Pope Gregory VII.
Exactly…they can’t trace it back…because they do not worship the God of Abraham.
M
Mickey
Guest
Much of the time…it is not even necessary to read between the lines.
Cast me not away from thy face; and take not thy** holy spirit** from me. (Psalm 50:13)
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
CCC 841 is derived from Lumen Gentium, which it explicitly quotes, not Nostra Aetate.
I’m copying and pasting the relevant section from the English translation on the Vatican’s own website:
“Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”
M
Mickey
Guest
Yes…thank you…that was already answered for me.
And as we have been discussing for two weeks…Muslims do not worship the Trinitarian God…hence they are not worshipping the God of Abraham…and if that is truly what you think LG is saying…then it is plain wrong…in error…that is why I say it is not binding on Catholics…because the majority of Catholics do not accept that Muslims worship the same God.
My question to you…where is this innovative theology in Church Tradition? Where did Lumen Gentium get it from? Where is the Consensus Patrum on this?
F
Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
I thought you might want the full quote with the context of a few sentences prior.
The One True God is the Trinitarian God. There is no other.
Monotheism is “innovative theology”?
I think Lumen Gentium got this notion from the same philosophical view expressed by Contarini earlier in this thread: i.e. that since transcendent monotheism is the truth, errors about God in religions that otherwise profess transcendent monotheism constitute errors about God… not real characteristics of an unreal other god.
M
Mickey
Guest
A declaration that muslims and Christians worship the same God…is relatively new and innovative.
A philosophical view that was championed by Edwin? Interesting…but unconvincing.
It sounds like sycretisitc/ecumenistic double talk.
There is one God. That God is Trinitarian. Muslim do not worship the Trinitarian God. Hence they do not worship the God of Abraham. To say otherwise seems nonsensical.
- Status