Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

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Mickey said:
A declaration that muslims and Christians worship the same God…is relatively new and innovative.

A philosophical view that was championed by Edwin? Interesting…but unconvincing.

It sounds like sycretisitc/ecumenistic double talk.

There is one God. That God is Trinitarian. Muslim do not worship the Trinitarian God. Hence they do not worship the God of Abraham. To say otherwise seems nonsensical.
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Every since this thread opened up, I’ve tried looking up on the net that the EO Church states regarding islam/muslims but could not find anything.

Do you have any sites from the EO side that is similar to CCC841…???
 
jakasaki said:
Do you have any sites from the EO side that is similar to CCC841…???
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No. I believe the Orthodox say very little on the matter. It is not something that we need to hear.

We know (like most devout Catholics)…and it is obvious… that the Muslims do not worship the Trinitarian God…the God of Abraham.

Sure, you may be able to find the odd Orthodox syncretist/ecumenist…but nothing binding. 😉
 
Mickey said:
No. I believe the Orthodox say very little on the matter. It is not something that we need to hear.

We know (like most devout Catholics)…and it is obvious… that the Muslims do not worship the Trinitarian God…the God of Abraham.

Sure, you may be able to find the odd Orthodox syncretist/ecumenist…but nothing binding. 😉
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I believe you are correct because I spent about 4 hours on Friday looking for such in OE sites and could not find anything.

Thanks Mickey
 
Mickey said:
A declaration that muslims and Christians worship the same God…is relatively new and innovative.

A philosophical view that was championed by Edwin? Interesting…but unconvincing.

It sounds like sycretisitc/ecumenistic double talk.

There is one God. That God is Trinitarian. Muslim do not worship the Trinitarian God. Hence they do not worship the God of Abraham. To say otherwise seems nonsensical.
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Sounds more like a philosophy espoused by atheists rather then Christians.
 
“In certain circumstances, such as in prayer services ‘for unity’ and during oecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable, that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. Such prayers in common are certainly a very effective means of petitioning for the grace of unity, and they are a genuine expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to their separated brethren.” (Decree on Oecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, paragraph 8)
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Well, what do you think?
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Busy_bee:
Muslims are not seperated brethren.
 
Here is a great video: youtube.com/watch?v=1fXNulKoTRw

The guy isn’t Catholic, but he is generally on point and not a Pre-trib rapture idiot.

I rewrote the CCC #841 using different examples which I feel provide a clear picture of how I perceive what is being said, or rather the only sensible way I can read it. It’s in my signature.
 
jonbhorton said:
I rewrote the CCC #841 using different examples which I feel provide a clear picture of how I perceive what is being said, or rather the only sensible way I can read it. It’s in my signature.
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That’s quite humorous. 🙂
 
Fone_Bone_2001 said:
CCC 841 is derived from Lumen Gentium, which it explicitly quotes, not Nostra Aetate.

I’m copying and pasting the relevant section from the English translation on the Vatican’s own website:

“Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”
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I’m actually surprise Mickey has issues with NA and not LG. LG to me is more challenging to comprehend as a catholic. And it’s impact on 841 is specifically what I’m referring to. NA is quite honestly clear and easy to understand in it’s total explanation as a total document. One thing about NA and LG is that neither were meant as creeds. They are meant as a complete document within the magesterium of the catholic church.

Further NA and LG do not repudiate that the Catholic Church is the Ark of Salvation.
 
jam070406 said:
Sounds more like a philosophy espoused by atheists rather then Christians.
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Actually, if you talk to atheists you will find that they pretty consistently agree with you and Mickey.

They are very fond of the argument “everyone is an atheist about all gods except their own–we’re just atheists about one more god.”

My position is the best refutation of atheism.

Edwin
 
My understanding of NA and LG so far when it comes to muslims is that the Church acknowledges the fact that they believe they are serving the one true God, and so says that they are included in the plan of salvation. It doesn’t say it agrees that they worship him.

Anyway, I can see why it is hard to interpret - so many possibilities of misunderstanding it. I have found a document on line that has labelled many aspects of LG as heretic. The argument is formidable, but even then it’s clear the church has been misunderstood.
 
Contarini said:
Actually, if you talk to atheists you will find that they pretty consistently agree with you and Mickey.

They are very fond of the argument “everyone is an atheist about all gods except their own–we’re just atheists about one more god.”

My position is the best refutation of atheism.

Edwin
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It’s a convenient excuse to lump us in with Muslims that abuse women, fly planes into buildings, kill in the name God or have repressive theocracies, in order to dismiss any idea of God.
We believe in the one true God who has revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. There is none other.
 
Busy_bee said:
My understanding of NA and LG so far when it comes to muslims is that the Church acknowledges the fact that they believe they are serving the one true God, and so says that they are included in the plan of salvation.
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That is the heart of the question. If they think they are praying to the one true God…even though they are fully cognizant and aware that they do not believe in the Trinitarian God…do they still pray to the one true God?
Busy_bee said:
Anyway, I can see why it is hard to interpret - so many possibilities of misunderstanding it. I have found a document on line that has labelled many aspects of LG as heretic. The argument is formidable, but even then it’s clear the church has been misunderstood.
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I think it would behoove Pope Benedict to clarify the situation once and for all.
 
Busy_bee said:
My understanding of NA and LG so far when it comes to muslims is that the Church acknowledges the fact that they believe they are serving the one true God, and so says that they are included in the plan of salvation. It doesn’t say it agrees that they worship him.

Anyway, I can see why it is hard to interpret - so many possibilities of misunderstanding it. I have found a document on line that has labelled many aspects of LG as heretic. The argument is formidable, but even then it’s clear the church has been misunderstood.
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I agree. They are pointless documents. Nobody comes to the Father but through Jesus.
At the end of day all they have done is add confusion to Catholics, make non Catholic Christians suspicious and give Muslims false impressions. They have done more damage to the Catholic Faith and have not brought any Muslims to Jesus.
I think this is why Dominus Iesus was issued.
 
Mickey said:
That is the heart of the question. If they think they are praying to the one true God…even though they are fully cognizant and aware that they do not believe in the Trinitarian God…do they still pray to the one true God?
I think it would behoove Pope Benedict to clarify the situation once and for all.
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Agreed.

Do they still pray to the one true God? I don’t think the silence of the church on this matter is an accident. I think the answer (which is NO!) has been “suppressed” to give room for positive dialogue. Kind of like saying, I won’t call you a liar openly, but when i speak to you and tell you what I think, you’ll pretty much come to that conclusion. Haha.😃

Yes, our Papa should.👍
 
👍
jam070406 said:
I agree. They are pointless documents. Nobody comes to the Father but through Jesus.
At the end of day all they have done is add confusion to Catholics, make non Catholic Christians suspicious and give Muslims false impressions. They have done more damage to the Catholic Faith and have not brought any Muslims to Jesus.
I think this is why Dominus Iesus was issued.
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