Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[rinnie]

Is it as unconvincing as is your argument?
I think I have already done a fair job over the past couple of weeks of showing that Muslims to not pray to the one true God. I have nothing to prove. My ego is not that big…I hope.

Stick and stones.
I have already exposed your erroneous thinking over and over again…and if you agree with this site…why should I repeat myself?

Besides the link you gave just takes me to a generic site.

Yes, thats pretty much what I expected. And My argument has the teaching of the Pope, Catholics Priests who all agree with it.

It makes one wonder why you are not up to the challenge:ehh:

 

[Mickey]

It is as St Paul teaches us that the mystery of Christ was not made known to other generations as it as been revealed to his Holy Apostles.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

 

[Mickey]

It makes one wonder why you are not up to the challenge

I do not respond to your immature threats and/or challenges.
I have already refuted you thoroughly. Your link has no article attached to it…and if the priest from this article wants to debate…you can send him to this thread.

 

[Mickey]

Would you like me to say (again) what it is?

What’s the use? I do not accept your explanation. It does not ring true.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

What’s the use? I do not accept your explanation. It does not ring true.

Maybe you’re right. To reassure me, will you explain what I was going to say in your own words?

If you don’t want to, that’s fine. I’m not hell-bent on convincing you on this.

 

[Mickey]

To reassure me, will you explain what I was going to say

I thought you were going to say this yet again:

“I will once again repeat that since transcendent monotheism is the truth, errors about God in religions that otherwise profess transcendent monotheism constitute errors about God… not real characteristics of an unreal other god.”

I’m not hell-bent on convincing you on this.

Likewise. That has been my stance all along. If you are comfortable with syncrestic prayers with Muslims…and professing that you believe that they pray to the same God as Christians…then that is between you and your conscience…you have free will to believe such a thing.

I am only explaining why I do not believe such a thing.

 

[rinnie]

I do not respond to your immature threats and/or challenges.
I have already refuted you thoroughly. Your link has no article attached to it…and if the priest from this article wants to debate…you can send him to this thread.

Hold on now, lets be honest. It was not just me, it is the Pope, and the CCC and the teachings of the RCC. ANd the Priest that wrote the article also. Because there is nothing that I said that would be in any conflict with what they teach.

 

[rinnie]

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

Mickey why do you continue to quote the scripture. No one disagrees with this teaching that has had it revealed to them through the word of God.

We could quote scripture all day, But it still does not change the fact that there is only ONE GOD and the God Of Abraham is the same God as the Muslims.

ANd that many Muslims have not had the full truth of the Trinity taught to them and God does not hold you to something that you do not know.

You continue to say because the Muslims do not have the truth of the Trinity revealed to them then it makes their God false. It is not true.

 

[jam070406]

Hold on now, lets be honest. It was not just me, it is the Pope, and the CCC and the teachings of the RCC. ANd the Priest that wrote the article also. Because there is nothing that I said that would be in any conflict with what they teach.

I am not in conflict with anything the current Pope, past Popes, CCC, Councils, Tradition, Priests have stated. See, I can claim that too.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I thought you were going to say this yet again.

Haha, fair enough.

I was actually going to be more specific to our exchange that time. I said that the God to whom Muslims pray is the One True Trinitarian God, despite their denial of the Trinity. You asserted that such a position is nonsensical.

The reason I find it utterly sensible and compelling is that what else could determine to whom one’s prayers go if not to whom the one who is praying intends them to go?

They intend the same God Who revealed Himself to Abraham to be the one Who receives their prayers… so to Him they go. That’s what makes the real God the one to Whom they are praying. Yes, they get a lot of things about Him wrong. And those things matter, a lot. But they don’t change the fact that the God to whom they intend to direct their prayers (the God of Abraham) in reality - despite their distortions - happens to be, in fact, the One True God.

Likewise. That has been my stance all along. If you are comfortable with syncrestic prayers with Muslims…then that is between you and your conscience.

Actually, I would consult my priest. I don’t approve of every instance of such a thing; an impression of relativism or universalism must not be given. I don’t object to the very idea in principle.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be cautious and judge on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Mickey]

Hold on now, lets be honest. It was not just me, it is the Pope, and the CCC

It is not binding on you. The Muslim teaching is one of those tentatively proposed teachings.

“Since the Catechism treats many things that not only have not been taught infallibly but which also have been proposed in the most tentative of fashions (esp. in the area of social teaching), there remains due liberty for theologians (and others) when they encounter something that has been proposed only tentatively.”
Cardinal Ratzinger

 

[rinnie]

It is not binding on you. The Muslim teaching is one of those tentatively proposed teachings.

“Since the Catechism treats many things that not only have not been taught infallibly but which also have been proposed in the most tentative of fashions (esp. in the area of social teaching), there remains due liberty for theologians (and others) when they encounter something that has been proposed only tentatively.”
Cardinal Ratzinger

It is when its the truth.

Mickey Let me ask you but ONE more question. Please answer it clearly.

You are saying that if you do not know GOD as the Trinity God you are following a false God. THis is what you are saying and have been saying all along, Correct? I don’t want to be accused of putting words in your mouth.

 

[rinnie]

You went off the rails on the last part.

Really? Could you explain why?

 

[Mickey]

I said that the God to whom Muslims pray is the One True Trinitarian God, despite their denial of the Trinity. You asserted that such a position is nonsensical.

It is the part about them worshipping the true God despite their denial of the True God…that throws a monkey wrench into for me.

what else could determine to whom one’s prayers go if not to whom the one who is praying intends them to go?

Exactly! And they are not intending their prayers to be heard by the Trinitarian God…the true God…the God of Abraham.

They intend the same God Who revealed Himself to Abraham to be the one Who receives their prayers… so to Him they go.

But if they deny Christ and the Trinitarian God…then their prayers are not going to the God of Abraham.

We cannot force the Lord to mercy with prayer! For our God is a jealous God (Ex. 20:5); The Lord is righteous and loves righteousness (Ps. 10:7). There have been cases when He Himself forbade prayer for certain persons: He said to His prophet Jeremiah about His people: *do not pray for these people, and do not ask that they be shown mercy, and do not pray, do not approach Me concerning them, for I shall not hear you *(Jer. 7:16).
(Orthodox Life Vol. 26 #1)

But they don’t change the fact that the God to whom they intend to direct their prayers (the God of Abraham) in reality - despite their distortions - happens to be, in fact, the One True God.

But those distortions matter. We pray with the heart and mind. If the heart and mind do not recognize…knowingly reject…and do not acknowledge the one true God…the Trinitarian God…one cannot be praying to that God.

 

[jam070406]

Really? Could you explain why?

Anyone that denies Jesus is God is not worshipping the one True God.

 

[Mickey]

You are saying that if you do not know GOD as the Trinity God you are following a false God.

Sheesh! I have said this one hundred times…here comes 101:

I am saying that if you reject Christ and the Trinitarian God…then you are knowing and consciously rejecting the one true God…the God of Abraham.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey why do you continue to quote the scripture.

See post # 721.

We could quote scripture all day,

Yes…let’s!!!

But it still does not change the fact that there is only ONE GOD and the God Of Abraham

Yes. The Trinitarian God.

is the same God as the Muslims.

No way.

---

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

 

[rinnie]

Give it a try.
If somebody does not believe in Jesus Christ…he hast not the Father. One can proclaim belief in “one transcendent god” all day long…ut it does not mean they are praying to the God of Abraham.

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

It don’t matter because here is your quote.

And I can’t BELIEVE how many people you have got to agree with you on this and go against not only the truth, but the word of God.

In Matt. Jesus asks the Apostles WHO do People say I am. but then he said who do YOU think I am. Peter says you are the Messiah the Son of the Living GOd.

Now Jesus says FLESH AND BONE has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven. Now you claim Mickey Abraham revealed it to them? Jesus said GOD DID? How can this be.

Secondly if they did not know who Jesus was, then that makes their God false according to what you are saying. Which many have been telling you is absurd.

Next you not only put the Jews, the Muslims in the position of worshiping a false God,you did it to ST. Paul.

Saul Saul, why are you persecuting me? Who are you? Jesus the one you are persecuting.

In order for your absurd statements to be true, you are going to have to deny not only all of the Prophets before Christ as having a false God. Even the Apostles.

If Saint Paul knew quite CLEAR of Christ in the Trinity, because as you state if you do not acknowledge Christ in the Trinity your God is false cannot in any way be the ONE TRUE GOD, you also made St Paul worshiping a false GOd, and the God who came to him false. Because he did not know Jesus in the Trinity until God revealed it to him also.

 

[rinnie]

See post # 721.
Yes…let’s!!!
Yes. The Trinitarian God.
No way.

---

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

ANd good this is as clear as it gets. ST Paul denied Christ! He was crucifying Christ in the Church. So as you state ST Paul worshiped a false God also.

 

[Mickey]

you also made St Paul worshiping a false GOd, and the God who came to him false. Because.

Shame on you for false witness against me. You are twisting the Sacred Scriptures in an attempt to justify your erroneous belief. Christ and the Holy Spirit was revealed throughout the OT. Christ and the Holy Spirit was revealed throughout the NT.

2000 years later…we have a neatly compiled book called the Bible that lays it all out for us. The Muslims reject what is in that book. They reject the divininty of Jesus Christ. They reject the Holy Spirit. They reject the idea of a Trinitarian God. They reject the God of Abraham.

Your novel interpretations are not going to change any of that!!!

Shame, shame, shame!!!

**I and the Father are one. **
(Jn 10:30)