Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[Busy_bee]

Haha, fair enough.

I was actually going to be more specific to our exchange that time. I said that the God to whom Muslims pray is the One True Trinitarian God, despite their denial of the Trinity. You asserted that such a position is nonsensical.

The reason I find it utterly sensible and compelling is that what else could determine to whom one’s prayers go if not to whom the one who is praying intends them to go?

They intend the same God Who revealed Himself to Abraham to be the one Who receives their prayers… so to Him they go. That’s what makes the real God the one to Whom they are praying. Yes, they get a lot of things about Him wrong. And those things matter, a lot. But they don’t change the fact that the God to whom they intend to direct their prayers (the God of Abraham) in reality - despite their distortions - happens to be, in fact, the One True God.

The problem is that the thing they get wrong (who he is, what his plan is…) is n direct conrast with the other revelation of the God of Abraham, as in mutually exclusive. So they “intend” the God revealed to them by mohammed because if not, they’d have to take a definite stand with the christians. I’ve been saying this since. They are NOT idolaters, they are not false God worshippers. They are non-deity worshippers because of their belief in Mohammed and his revelation. If they weren’t they wouldn’t be muslims would they?

 

[rinnie]

We have said those that came AFTER Jesus and deny the Trinity do not know the one True God.
Those that had the Faith of Abraham BEFORE Jesus came to recognize Him/Trinity when He came and became His followers.
Paul knew the law of the one true God that was given to the Jews. If he had Faith why did he kill Christians and then have a conversion by Divine intervention from Jesus?
Are you claiming Paul had the Holy Spirit before his conversion?

Oh and by the way, Mickey said the Trinity was clearly revealed in the O.T. Remember??

 

[jam070406]

I don’t truly know how to say it property. I agree that his revelation did not come from the True God the GOd of Abraham. But on the other hand we cannot reject ALL of their teachings.

As the Pope says we do have the TRUE GOD in common. WE both believe in ONE GOD the Creator of heaven and earth.

I mean that is a start. But it is that TRUE GOD the Same God that we have that will someday reveal to them that GOD is the One GOd in the Trinity.

But you must remember they don’t have the true word of God, and the ones that do will eventually come to accept it. But you have to remember its going to take ALOT of time. And remember look how many people in this world are taught it, and reject it. But the point of the matter is, when it is revealed to them by the GRACE of God, and God knows that they understand it, if they are his, they will accept it.

Look at the Jews, they had access to the True Word of GOd, and it hasn"t been until recently that they are comming to see it in the light of the Church in record numbers.

God works in very strange ways. But we have to remember GOD knows why and what he is doing. We may not understand everything, and we won’t because we do not have his mind. but we do trust him.

It is our LOVE for him and his Son that will hopefully someday lead the way for them and unite them with him… But we must pray everyday that they can come to see Christ in the true light that was given to us through his Church.

You have to remember they don’t have the Church to teach them. If someone said to you there is only ONE GOD but he is in the 3 persons you have to admit you would be like HUH? IT was the Church that revealed to us the true Mystery, and as we are taught no one truly understands it to the fullest. It is something that only God can know fully. We only know that it is the true word of God because Jesus taught us, and the Church helps explain it to us.

Jesus often said TO JEWS I cannot work miracles here because of your lack of Faith. Jesus didn’t chase after those Jews that had a hard believing the Eucharist. He didn’t seek to give further understanding. He often asked “do you believe?”
He wants surrender of your will. The Apostles didn’t understand but they believed.
Faith requires the full submission of intellect and will, as the Church teaches.

 

[rinnie]

It says the Creator they profess is one god subsisting in himself. Clearly not the Christian God, the Trinity. It only affirms they are monotheistic.

?

 

[jonbhorton]

Rinnie, et al. defenders of this erroneous idea that mohammedans worship the God of Abraham,

Since we are seemingly just repeating ourselves, I’ll repeat myself from I think a different thread on the head bumpers (with additions):

It categorically rejects Christ, after (7 centuries in fact) the revelation of Christ, having been exposed to the Gospel. Your original arguments were founded in the concept of *global *chronological processes being equal with the objective chronology. In other words: you are forgetting the linear progression and trying to fold it in on itself to reconcile mohammedan doctrine with Christian Truth. Sorry, that don’t work on multiple levels. Mohammedanism is rectifiable within both what happened inside Christendom and the gentile world, whereas the revelation of the Mystery of Christ to the Jews was an entirely other thing, though with multiple OT scripture to clue the dear chil’rens of Israel in prior to, during, and after the Incarnation of Christ, life, death and resurrection thereof. Where do you think homohammed stole all his ideas? In fact, mohammedanism spread, largely in the Byzantine empire, through the outright rejection of ALL Christian dogma, because of having heard a false version of the Truth which is no truth at all. Some of the most venerated cities in mohammedanism, including ones in Iraq, were Catholic strongholds. The city of my first deployment, Samarra, was actually a monastic town prior to mohammedanism. You will not find Christianity there today. Neither will you find anything other than a mosque over the site of a church St. Polycarp helped pastor or establish. It seeks, at every twist and turn, to supplant Christianity and murder our Jewish brethren. It is, by definition, anti-Christ.

St. Paul’s conversion, and the Jews in general, are a totally different story altogether.

Let me break down my signature for ya so you get it:

JBH#841
"The plan of taxation also includes those who acknowledge the Tax Collector,

Everyone acknowledges, in some way, the principle of tax collection. Guess what, it also includes those who adopt a mindset of “I recognize your point of view, but I reject it and supply my own”.

**
in the first place of whom are the Americans;**

Yes, we Americans do begrudgingly acknowledge the Tax Collector. We also absolutely despise him.

**
these profess to hold the principle of taxation without representation**

Totally false. Now, what we do in principle may lend credence to this at a national level (seriously, where is the representation? I digress). The modern head bumper may also truly believe they are in some sort of ecumenical love fest with Christians and Jews, but no matter what the modern mohammedan does, says, or believes, the system of mohammedanism, doesn’t espouse those principles at its core and in its undeniable tenets of “faith”(more like politics).

** and together with us render tribute unto Caesar**

Yet again, false. We have no Caesar. There is no global American taxation policy. While we Americans may pay income taxes (well, since 1913), we have never paid it to Caesar because he’s dead. Mohammedans render tribute ultimately to mohammed and not Christ, because “Allah”'s psychological profile is more akin to mohammed than GOD.

, America’s tax collector on tax day."

We’s all gonna get taxed yo, somehow, some way. Mohammedanism doesn’t even know what a w-2 form is, good luck on that audit and enjoy prison- I hear the prison population is filled with mohammedans. Prison is a euphemism in accordance with its Christian usage.

 

[jam070406]

Really? Where did you say all of this.

But anyway that is so far off in left field to what I asked you. SO let me try AGAIN

Did ST Paul before he was converted into the faith of Christ have a false God? Thats all I want to know.

I answered you. You just don’t get it.

 

[rinnie]

Jesus often said TO JEWS I cannot work miracles here because of your lack of Faith. Jesus didn’t chase after those Jews that had a hard believing the Eucharist. He didn’t seek to give further understanding. He often asked “do you believe?”
He wants surrender of your will. The Apostles didn’t understand but they believed.
Faith requires the full submission of intellect and will, as the Church teaches.

Could you answer the question please?

 

[Busy_bee]

I don’t truly know how to say it property. I agree that his revelation did not come from the True God the GOd of Abraham. But on the other hand we cannot reject ALL of their teachings.

As the Pope says we do have the TRUE GOD in common. WE both believe in ONE GOD the Creator of heaven and earth.

I mean that is a start. But it is that TRUE GOD the Same God that we have that will someday reveal to them that GOD is the One GOd in the Trinity.

But you must remember they don’t have the true word of God, and the ones that do will eventually come to accept it. But you have to remember its going to take ALOT of time. And remember look how many people in this world are taught it, and reject it. But the point of the matter is, when it is revealed to them by the GRACE of God, and God knows that they understand it, if they are his, they will accept it.

Look at the Jews, they had access to the True Word of GOd, and it hasn"t been until recently that they are comming to see it in the light of the Church in record numbers.

God works in very strange ways. But we have to remember GOD knows why and what he is doing. We may not understand everything, and we won’t because we do not have his mind. but we do trust him.

It is our LOVE for him and his Son that will hopefully someday lead the way for them and unite them with him… But we must pray everyday that they can come to see Christ in the true light that was given to us through his Church.

You have to remember they don’t have the Church to teach them. If someone said to you there is only ONE GOD but he is in the 3 persons you have to admit you would be like HUH? IT was the Church that revealed to us the true Mystery, and as we are taught no one truly understands it to the fullest. It is something that only God can know fully. We only know that it is the true word of God because Jesus taught us, and the Church helps explain it to us.

Now you are talking!!!
They are certainly included in the plan of salvation. They will realise by His grace that they have been following false revelation and have been wasting their time as a result following the dictates of a God that does not exist! They will love the one TRUE GOD with great fervour because they are generally devout and faithful to what they believe. And they will find it easier even than our separated brethren to turn to Mary and honour her in her rightful place as mother of God!

This is just as the samaritans were included in God’s plan of salvation even though at first they were doing rubbish, not knowing the God they claimed to worship. I am in total agreement with all the teachings of the church, and so far I haven’t read a single thing that contradicts my approach. I think I’ll end it here. Thanks, though, Rinnee.

 

[jam070406]

Could you answer the question please?

I did.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, et al. defenders of this erroneous idea that mohammedans worship the God of Abraham,

Since we are seemingly just repeating ourselves, I’ll repeat myself from I think a different thread on the head bumpers (with additions):

St. Paul’s conversion, and the Jews in general, are a totally different story altogether.

Let me break down my signature for ya so you get it:

JBH#841
"The plan of taxation also includes those who acknowledge the Tax Collector,

Everyone acknowledges, in some way, the principle of tax collection. Guess what, it also includes those who adopt a mindset of “I recognize your point of view, but I reject it and supply my own”.

**
in the first place of whom are the Americans;**

Yes, we Americans do begrudgingly acknowledge the Tax Collector. We also absolutely despise him.

**
these profess to hold the principle of taxation without representation**

Totally false. Now, what we do in principle may lend credence to this at a national level (seriously, where is the representation? I digress). The modern head bumper may also truly believe they are in some sort of ecumenical love fest with Christians and Jews, but no matter what the modern mohammedan does, says, or believes, the system of mohammedanism, doesn’t espouse those principles at its core and in its undeniable tenets of “faith”(more like politics).

** and together with us render tribute unto Caesar**

Yet again, false. We have no Caesar. There is no global American taxation policy. While we Americans may pay income taxes (well, since 1913), we have never paid it to Caesar because he’s dead. Mohammedans render tribute ultimately to mohammed and not Christ, because “Allah”'s psychological profile is more akin to mohammed than GOD.

, America’s tax collector on tax day."

We’s all gonna get taxed yo, somehow, some way. Mohammedanism doesn’t even know what a w-2 form is, good luck on that audit and enjoy prison- I hear the prison population is filled with mohammedans. Prison is a euphemism in accordance with its Christian usage.

But this really does not address my point. To say that if you do not have the revelation of Christ given to you, Christ in the Trinity, You are saying that the God of ABraham that you are following is a false God.

That is why I am using ST Paul, before it was given to him, or even after it was given to him, what makes the God of Abraham any more true or false. Do you see what I am saying here. Rather St Paul accepted Christ or rejected him, does not make the God of Abraham false. Sure it would make Paul not a true follower in the God of Abraham, but in no means makes the God of Abraham false.

THey are saying if you do not see Christ in the Trinity, it makes the God of Abraham a false God. Because a teaching is false, does not make the GOd of Abraham false. Many Jews do not accept the N.T. does it make the Jewish GOd false.No it does not.

Many Muslims do not see Christ in the Trinity, does it make the God of Abraham false, no it does not.

False teachings do not make the God of Abraham false. It makes the teachings false. There is no False God of Abraham. Abraham believed in the ONE TRUE GOD.

 

[rinnie]

Now you are talking!!!
They are certainly included in the plan of salvation. They will realise by His grace that they have been following false revelation and have been wasting their time as a result following the dictates of a God that does not exist! They will love the one TRUE GOD with great fervour because they are generally devout and faithful to what they believe. And they will find it easier even than our separated brethren to turn to Mary and honour her in her rightful place as mother of God!

This is just as the samaritans were included in God’s plan of salvation even though at first they were doing rubbish, not knowing the God they claimed to worship. I am in total agreement with all the teachings of the church, and so far I haven’t read a single thing that contradicts my approach. I think I’ll end it here. Thanks, though, Rinnee.

Exactly my love, It is the ONE TRUE GOD, the GOD OF ABRAHAM that they do indeed pray to that will somehow impart the Power of the Holy Spirit into them to see the fullness of the truth.

If they do not accept it when it is revealed to them by the power of the Holy Spirit then they are not true children of God. But rather people reject or accept it does not make the God of Abraham false.

 

[jonbhorton]

Your example may fly for those Jews in the era of Christ on earth and shortly after. However, it falls on its face in light of the fact that mohammedanism is a political invention, wrapped in religion, 7 centuries after the fact.

You seem to have fallen to the false notion that anything claiming monotheism via lineage from Abraham is automatically categorized as an Abrahamic religion.

Mohammedanism is about as Abrahamic as the American Communist Party is truly American. Munch on that for a second because I just put about 5 ideas in one sentence.

 

[jam070406]

Could you answer the question please?

1 Timothy 1

9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

11 according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

12 I thank him that enabled me, even Christ Jesus our Lord, for that he counted me faithful, appointing me to his service;

13 though I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;

14 and the grace of our Lord abounded exceedingly with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief:

16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[rinnie]

Your example may fly for those Jews in the era of Christ on earth and shortly after. However, it falls on its face in light of the fact that mohammedanism is a political invention, wrapped in religion, 7 centuries after the fact.

You seem to have fallen to the false notion that anything claiming monotheism via lineage from Abraham is automatically categorized as an Abrahamic religion.

Mohammedanism is about as Abrahamic as the American Communist Party is truly American. Munch on that for a second because I just put about 5 ideas in one sentence.

WHere in the world did I ever say that? Please read this thread I never denied that they are following the teachings of a false prophet.

I agree with you 100% that Mohammedanism as you put it does not come from the God of Abraham, I have said it for 2 weeks.

BUt the fact still remains that they pray to the same God as us the GOd OF Abraham.

Could you show me where I ever said that?

Because they are linked to and pray to the God of Abraham, in no ways means they are going by the true teachings. I never said that.

 

[rinnie]

1 Timothy 1

9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

11 according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

12 I thank him that enabled me, even Christ Jesus our Lord, for that he counted me faithful, appointing me to his service;

13 though I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;

14 and the grace of our Lord abounded exceedingly with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief:

16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

This scripture has nothing to do with the question I asked you. Why can you not answer a simple yes or no question.

Was the God of Abraham the God of St Paul before his conversion. Please this is getting tiresome. YES OR NO. Just answer the question.

 

[jam070406]

This scripture has nothing to do with the question I asked you. Why can you not answer a simple yes or no question.

Was the God of Abraham the God of St Paul before his conversion. Please this is getting tiresome. YES OR NO. Just answer the question.

He was following the law given to the Jews by the God of Abraham.
He was “ignorant in unbelief.”

 

[rinnie]

He was following the law given to the Jews by the God of Abraham.
He was “ignorant in unbelief.”

What You are saying the GOD OF ABRAHAM is who is to blame for those peope who deviated from the truth?

The law given to Abraham is pretty much the whole first book of Genesis. I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[jam070406]

What You are saying the GOD OF ABRAHAM is who is to blame for those peope who deviated from the truth?

What are talking about???
Sin is to blame.

 

[rinnie]

He was following the law given to the Jews by the God of Abraham.
He was “ignorant in unbelief.”

Right here you just said he was following the law given to the Jews by the God Of Abraham!

THen you said he was ignorant in unbelief!

 

[jam070406]

Right here you just said he was following the law given to the Jews by the God Of Abraham!

THen you said he was ignorant in unbelief!

and?

13 though I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;