Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[jakasaki]

Surely you “few” posters and you all know who you are…

Have a some sort of monopoly on this thread and it seems like if other members post, you simply ignore.

I’ve had respect for Rinnie & Mickey through out my years on here , but you guys have left a sour taste with me.

You all sound like a broken LP.

 

[jam070406]

Surely you “few” posters and you all know who you are…

Have a some sort of monopoly on this thread and it seems like if other members post, you simply ignore.

I’ve had respect for Rinnie & Mickey through out my years on here , but you guys have left a sour taste with me.

You all sound like a broken LP.

I apologize.

Wow…just…wow…

 

[Mickey]

I’ve had respect for Rinnie & Mickey through out my years on here , but you guys have left a sour taste with me.
You all sound like a broken LP.

You are correct. Everything that needed to be said has pretty much been said…by both sides. No one is going to change the other’s mind…and that is not my intention here. As I have said many times on this very thread, this issue is a matter of conscience…and a discussion should occur between the individual and his/her spiritual father. Rinnie has attempted to change the question. The thread is not about St Paul’s stature as a pharisee before his conversion. The thread is about praying with modern day Muslims. Is it proper…and if not, why? I have held all along that it is because they deny the Triune God…the God of Abraham…therefore they are not praying to the God of Abraham. St Paul did convert to Christ…and what a powerful conversion it was…that is why rinnie’s question is irrelevant. St Paul shows us the example of metanoia. And this is indeed what we pray for…for the conversion of heart of our Muslim friends. In essence this is Pauline soteriology - to bring salvation to mankind by proclaiming the message of Jesus, to open their eyes, to transfer them from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God, to receive forgiveness of sins and a place among the people of God! The Gospel event of Christ communicates the reality of salvation!

St Paul did not look to his past …he pressed onward in Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching forth myself to those that are before, I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:12-14

Without conversion to Christ, the Muslims are knowingly rejecting his divinity and his mercy. They are rejecting the Triune God. And the Triune God IS the God of Abraham. I think that the majority of Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics, and protestants on this forum agree that the Muslim God is **not **the same God as the Christians. And I thank everyone here for their (name removed by moderator)ut…it made for a brisk dialogue.

And I also apologize to rinnie for my harsh tone at times. I understand how you believe on this issue rinnie…and I am not trying to convince you otherwise. You will believe as your conscience dictates.

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone. And thank you for scolding me Jakasaki.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[rinnie]

Surely you “few” posters and you all know who you are…

Have a some sort of monopoly on this thread and it seems like if other members post, you simply ignore.

I’ve had respect for Rinnie & Mickey through out my years on here , but you guys have left a sour taste with me.

You all sound like a broken LP.

You are right, and I also apologize. Sometimes we can get so into trying to show people what we have learned from the word of God we just get carried away.

I am also going to bail out, but before I go, I must make one Point to everyone.

My whole point in using ST Paul was to show that even him, a person who was at one time persecuting the Church, by the Grace of GOd became a great leader of it. I just want to say I in no way ever meant to show disrespect for him.

And my last point and I am going to leave is as long as we have God and believe in him. nothing is impossible.

ANd Mickey guess what? It happened WE AGREE. We will never be able to get ths point acrossed to one another. But we both were not the Christians we know that we can be.

 

[Mickey]

ANd Mickey guess what? It happened WE AGREE.

You know I luv ya rinnie!

 

[jam070406]

:grouphug:

 

[Busy_bee]

Rinnie, et al. defenders of this erroneous idea that mohammedans worship the God of Abraham,

Since we are seemingly just repeating ourselves, I’ll repeat myself from I think a different thread on the head bumpers (with additions):

St. Paul’s conversion, and the Jews in general, are a totally different story altogether.

Let me break down my signature for ya so you get it:

JBH#841
"The plan of taxation also includes those who acknowledge the Tax Collector,

Everyone acknowledges, in some way, the principle of tax collection. Guess what, it also includes those who adopt a mindset of “I recognize your point of view, but I reject it and supply my own”.

**
in the first place of whom are the Americans;**

Yes, we Americans do begrudgingly acknowledge the Tax Collector. We also absolutely despise him.

**
these profess to hold the principle of taxation without representation**

Totally false. Now, what we do in principle may lend credence to this at a national level (seriously, where is the representation? I digress). The modern head bumper may also truly believe they are in some sort of ecumenical love fest with Christians and Jews, but no matter what the modern mohammedan does, says, or believes, the system of mohammedanism, doesn’t espouse those principles at its core and in its undeniable tenets of “faith”(more like politics).

** and together with us render tribute unto Caesar**

Yet again, false. We have no Caesar. There is no global American taxation policy. While we Americans may pay income taxes (well, since 1913), we have never paid it to Caesar because he’s dead. Mohammedans render tribute ultimately to mohammed and not Christ, because “Allah”'s psychological profile is more akin to mohammed than GOD.

, America’s tax collector on tax day."

We’s all gonna get taxed yo, somehow, some way. Mohammedanism doesn’t even know what a w-2 form is, good luck on that audit and enjoy prison- I hear the prison population is filled with mohammedans. Prison is a euphemism in accordance with its Christian usage.

FINALLY!!! Someone is saying exactly what I am saying in a different way! That’s it. They are in no way the same as the Jews or other christian heretics!

I don’t get your tax example (I’m not American) and i’m not even going to try, but I’m sure it’s a good analogy.:clapping:

 

[Busy_bee]

I don’t truly know how to say it property. I agree that his revelation did not come from the True God the GOd of Abraham. But on the other hand we cannot reject ALL of their teachings.

As the Pope says we do have the TRUE GOD in common. WE both believe in ONE GOD the Creator of heaven and earth.

I mean that is a start. But it is that TRUE GOD the Same God that we have that will someday reveal to them that GOD is the One GOd in the Trinity.

But you must remember they don’t have the true word of God, and the ones that do will eventually come to accept it. But you have to remember its going to take ALOT of time. And remember look how many people in this world are taught it, and reject it. But the point of the matter is, when it is revealed to them by the GRACE of God, and God knows that they understand it, if they are his, they will accept it.

Look at the Jews, they had access to the True Word of GOd, and it hasn"t been until recently that they are comming to see it in the light of the Church in record numbers.

Even those who don’t believe in God at all still get some things right, Rinnee. It doesn’t mean anything.

 

[Busy_bee]

Surely you “few” posters and you all know who you are…

Have a some sort of monopoly on this thread and it seems like if other members post, you simply ignore.

I’ve had respect for Rinnie & Mickey through out my years on here , but you guys have left a sour taste with me.

You all sound like a broken LP.

Aw!! That sounds terrible! I apologise on their behalf, and, if I have also had a part in this craze I apologise too.:console:
what is an LP?

 

[jakasaki]

what is an LP?

LP = Long Playing album, made from vinyl. Since you don’t know what it is, I guess you are young.

Back in the day, we had records and they had names attached to them.

In the old days it was the 33 1/3’s - hard album and if you dropped it it broke into pieces.

Then came the small 45’s. They only had a single song on one side and another single song on the other side

Then came the LP’s. Long playing albums where that you would call today would be a CD.

The LP had 2 sides because the entire albums would not fit onto one side.

Then you had the record players with the needles…

Anyway, you can google more on these old media.

And hey guys…

Thanks… this thread, although I followed it, I was amazed how you guys ignored other posters and didn’t reply to them. And just yesterday, Gary Taylor jumped in and he too was ignored.

It pssd me off and I got … well… let’s say… angry. Threads are to be shared with all.

Forgive me as well. I still love Mickey & Rinnie.

Best regards
Pam

 

[jonbhorton]

FWIW, responding to every single poster in a thread over 50 pages long is a bit of a strong expectation. Certain things simply slip through the cracks in such a huge thread.

I responded and went back to find 2 new pages. I’m simply not replying to every single poster due to time constraints. That doesn’t mean I discount their opinions, I personally just choose to respond to certain things and not others. It’s a community discussion, not polite conversation where everyone must be tended to so to maintain cordiality.

It’s also the internet, so lighten up Francis.

 

[jakasaki]

It’s also the internet, so lighten up Francis.

CAF is much more to many of us “than the internet” Francis.

Many of us have been here for a long time and we have developed bonds & friendships with members here.

I’m sure if your 200+ within your time here were all ignored, you’d probably feel the same.

Anyway… it’s done & we are moving on.

 

[boleyn2010]

I’m as light as helium… Think you got the wrong guy here. I haven’t posted 200+ times.
Wow !'m glad to see everyone is (are) still pals. I got worried that any prospective convert from Islam, viewing this thread, might have a change of heart.
Let us join together and pray for them.
If I offended anyone here please accept my apology.
Peace be with you.
Francis.

 

[Busy_bee]

I’m as light as helium… Think you got the wrong guy here. I haven’t posted 200+ times.
Wow !'m glad to see everyone is (are) still pals. I got worried that any prospective convert from Islam, viewing this thread, might have a change of heart.
Let us join together and pray for them.
If I offended anyone here please accept my apology.
Peace be with you.
Francis.

I’m new, and I have no idea who i’m talking to really, but it’s enough to know they are human.
I hope the convert to be managed to read the parts where Rinee was arguing ferociuosly ON his behalf! LOL

 

[Pythons]

In Islam it is promulgated that Allah could eternally vaporize Christ and His Mother if He wanted too…
…So an Islamic prayer would have the Muslims thinking you would agree with that “theological statement”.
…Better ways to share the Gospel with Muslims than praying to Allah.

 

[Busy_bee]

In Islam it is promulgated that Allah could eternally vaporize Christ and His Mother if He wanted too…
…So an Islamic prayer would have the Muslims thinking you would agree with that “theological statement”.
…Better ways to share the Gospel with Muslims than praying to Allah.

Syncretistic prayer is based on finding the things that unite us. It does not mean agreeing with each other’s teaching. It means, in practice, that I can pray with a muslim because I believe he is praying to the one true God same as I am. As to whose prayer will be heard and answered is not part of syncretistic agreement. (We know that God answers us when we pray through Christ, his son). The muslims don’t believe that. So, obviously,when we pray to God, even with a muslim, we must bear in mind that it is not so much where we are, and who we are praying with, as it is whom we are praying to and how much faith we have in Him. An Islamic prayer is prayer in Arabic language to God, whom they believe is the God of Abraham.
I don’t agree it is the God of Abraham they worship, though they believe in him. I work with their belief, and when we pray and they say in Arabic; Deliver us, oh Allah. I’m praying deliver us O Lord. It is a good way to foster unity and religious tolerance, if not evangelism.
It would be easier to understand if you were in my country and went to a Government school where a muslim prays, then a christian prays at our assemblies. They pray in English for our benefit, and all they say is applicable to God. So we Christians, telling God that we ask all this in Jesus’ name say “Amen”. That’s it. They won’t make us say in Allah’s name, and we won’t make them say in Jesus’ name, but we just prayed together, didn’t we?

 

[Contarini]

Syncretistic prayer is based on finding the things that unite us. It does not mean agreeing with each other’s teaching.

One linguistic note here: The OP used the term “syncretistic” as a slur. Syncretism means that you are putting together elements from different religions. From my point of view, praying with Muslims is not “syncretistic” if we are simply affirming those things that are genuinely common to the two traditions. Syncretism would be, for instance, finding some way to believe that Muhammad is God’s apostle in the sense claimed by Muslims while also saying that Jesus is the Son of God in the sense claimed by Christians. Or, on a practical level, a syncretist might pray five times a day using Muslim rituals while also receiving the Eucharist.

I don’t condemn syncretism outright, but I think most syncretism is very thoughtless and sloppy and should be avoided. If we can find a way to combine elements of two traditions without disregarding questions of truth, then fine. But syncretism is not a banner under which I would like to march.

Edwin

 

[Mickey]

I don’t condemn syncretism outright

And of course…I condemn it outright.

 

[jam070406]

And of course…I condemn it outright.

"The love for the God who reveals himself and for his word, the love for the sacraments and the church, are an efficacious antidote against a syncretism which deceives,” Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Contarini]

And of course…I condemn it outright.

And this requires an astonishing amount of historical denial of you as an Orthodox Christian.

To anyone except diehard conservative Orthodox Christians like yourself, it is obvious that Orthodoxy is one of the glorious triumphs of syncretism. Any fundamentalist can see it (and sharing your premise that syncretism is bad, naturally the fundamentalists find Orthodoxy horrifying). But if you don’t see it, God bless you anyway! Since I don’t think syncretism is bad, the fact that Orthodoxy is syncretistic doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I just need to learn to roll my eyes when Orthodox Christians condemn syncretism.

Edwin