Syriac (and Maronite) Romanisations vs Melkite Byzantinisations

[Wandile]

Well said. Syriac elements are sadly few-and-far-between in our (Melkite) liturgy, but we should really cherish the few that we still have.

Why not rediscover your roots and use the syriac rite? Just like the other eastern churches rid themselves of Latinizations, why not rid yourselves of byzantinations?

 

[dzheremi]

So, Syro and Antiochene are essentially synonymous?

No. Syro as a prefix (Syro-Antiochene, Syro-Malankara, etc.) refers to the Syriac language and/or Syriac usage in those particular churches of that tradition. Antiochene by itself just means “from Antioch”. The Arabic-speaking Byzantine Greek Church(es) of Antioch – those of the Catholic Melkites and the Eastern Orthodox – are certainly Antiochene in a geographical sense, but none are Syro-anything in a ritual sense. They are thoroughly Byzantinized liturgically and Arabized culturally.

 

[Zekariya]

No. Syro as a prefix (Syro-Antiochene, Syro-Malankara, etc.) refers to the Syriac language and/or Syriac usage in those particular churches of that tradition. Antiochene by itself just means “from Antioch”. The Arabic-speaking Byzantine Greek Church(es) of Antioch – those of the Catholic Melkites and the Eastern Orthodox – are certainly Antiochene in a geographical sense, but none are Syro-anything in a ritual sense. They are thoroughly Byzantinized liturgically and Arabized culturally.

I see. Thanks!

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

In addition to the above.

The Antiochene rite, whether in Greek or Syriac is the same.

However the Greek-Antiochene rite is different than the Greek-Byzantine Rite.

Similarly the Melkites do not use the Arabo-Antiochene rite. They use the Arabo-Byzantine rite.

I wrote about this (Antioch - both Greek and Syriac. But not Byzantine) confusion a while back.

 

[Zekariya]

Thanks! I appreciate this.

 

[malphono]

No. Syro as a prefix (Syro-Antiochene, Syro-Malankara, etc.) refers to the Syriac language and/or Syriac usage in those particular churches of that tradition. Antiochene by itself just means “from Antioch”. The Arabic-speaking Byzantine Greek Church(es) of Antioch – those of the Catholic Melkites and the Eastern Orthodox – are certainly Antiochene in a geographical sense, but none are Syro-anything in a ritual sense. They are thoroughly Byzantinized liturgically and Arabized culturally.

Thank you again, dzheremi. I’ve been diverted most of the day, but you came through with the appropriate info… as usual.

 

[dzheremi]

In addition to the above.

The Antiochene rite, whether in Greek or Syriac is the same.

However the Greek-Antiochene rite is different than the Greek-Byzantine Rite.

Similarly the Melkites do not use the Arabo-Antiochene rite. They use the Arabo-Byzantine rite.

I wrote about this (Antioch - both Greek and Syriac. But not Byzantine) confusion a while back.

I’m not sure what to make of this distinction, even after reading the article. It seems like a distinction without a difference in the modern era when one of the two is essentially not used (the ‘Antiochene-Greek’, if by this you mean the translation of the Greek liturgy used at Antioch before the switch to Arabic and the ‘Arabo-Byzantine’ liturgy; if you don’t mean that…well, what do you mean?).

 

[Aramis]

In addition to the above.

The Antiochene rite, whether in Greek or Syriac is the same.

However the Greek-Antiochene rite is different than the Greek-Byzantine Rite.

Similarly the Melkites do not use the Arabo-Antiochene rite. They use the Arabo-Byzantine rite.

I wrote about this (Antioch - both Greek and Syriac. But not Byzantine) confusion a while back.

Everything I’ve seen refers to the Melkite (and Antiochian Orthodox) as Syro-Byzantine, not Arabo-Byzantine. The naming of the Traditions is usually for cultural factors, not language factors.

“Syro-” in a cultural context refers to Syria, as a cultural influence, as opposed to meaning “uses the syrian language.”

 

[dzheremi]

Everything I’ve seen refers to the Melkite (and Antiochian Orthodox) as Syro-Byzantine, not Arabo-Byzantine. The naming of the Traditions is usually for cultural factors, not language factors.

This may be a difference in usage among our different communions, but with reference to OO churches and their traditions (including the Syriac), it most certainly does refer to “language factors”. See, for instance, works on Coptic and Copto-Arabic martyrologies or “Select narratives of Holy women from the Syro-Antiochene or Sinai palimpsest” (note the language; that’s Syriac).

“Syro-” in a cultural context refers to Syria, as a cultural influence, as opposed to meaning “uses the syrian language.”

Again, perhaps for Hellenized EO in Antioch who want to present themselves as equally “Syrian” despite having been divorced from the language and culture that was once their own in the process of being Byzantinized and later Arabized (or converts to Eastern Orthodoxy who think that this gives them license to treat OO poorly, because the EO are obviously the “real” Antiochian church…), but not for the rest of the world.

p.s.- Your post would be a lot less eyebrow-raising if it didn’t come from someone who is part of a communion that contains something they call “the Ge’ez rite”. Ge’ez is most certainly not a culture (the historical empire was that of Axum, not “Ge’ez”), and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox from whom your Catholic brothers and sisters came certainly don’t call themselves “Ge’ez Orthodox” or anything like that (it would be kind of insulting, really, seeing how many Tewahedo are Cushites).

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

I’m not sure what to make of this distinction, even after reading the article. It seems like a distinction without a difference in the modern era when one of the two is essentially not used (the ‘Antiochene-Greek’, if by this you mean the translation of the Greek liturgy used at Antioch before the switch to Arabic and the ‘Arabo-Byzantine’ liturgy; if you don’t mean that…well, what do you mean?).

Yes that is what i mean!

I thought I made that distinction at the end of the article:

*The Byzantine Liturgy (of St John Chrysostom) is heavily based on that of St James the Just and the Alexandrian Liturgy of St Basil. It is a Greek re-write of both. However it [The Byzantine Liturgy] is not the same as the Antiochene Liturgy. On the other hand, the West Syrian Liturgy as used today, is the same as the Antiochene Liturgy, with a few organic developments from Edessa…

Unfortunately today there aren’t any Churches that use the Greek-Antiochene Liturgy. Even the Melkite Church, use the Byzantine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom. *

Does that make sense?

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I don’t know what I was thinking. Apologies.

 

[Aramis]

This may be a difference in usage among our different communions, but with reference to OO churches and their traditions (including the Syriac), it most certainly does refer to “language factors”. See, for instance, works on Coptic and Copto-Arabic martyrologies or “Select narratives of Holy women from the Syro-Antiochene or Sinai palimpsest” (note the language; that’s Syriac).

Again, perhaps for Hellenized EO in Antioch who want to present themselves as equally “Syrian” despite having been divorced from the language and culture that was once their own in the process of being Byzantinized and later Arabized (or converts to Eastern Orthodoxy who think that this gives them license to treat OO poorly, because the EO are obviously the “real” Antiochian church…), but not for the rest of the world.

p.s.- Your post would be a lot less eyebrow-raising if it didn’t come from someone who is part of a communion that contains something they call “the Ge’ez rite”. Ge’ez is most certainly not a culture (the historical empire was that of Axum, not “Ge’ez”), and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox from whom your Catholic brothers and sisters came certainly don’t call themselves “Ge’ez Orthodox” or anything like that (it would be kind of insulting, really, seeing how many Tewahedo are Cushites).

The Ge’ez speakers use that term themselves - the church documents from Rome and the USCCB I’ve seen all refer to it as the Ethiopic or Ethiopian Rite, or the Ethiopian Use of the Alexandrian Rite. Including the Annuario Pontifical, the directory of parishes for the US, the CCEO (canon law for the Eastern churches, which was imposed by Rome, but doesn’t use “rite” for anything less than the 6 major rites). I’ve seen a few old references to it being he Amharic rite, but those were not in official documentation.

The Annuario uses “The Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic Church” not Ge’ez Rite. (The Ethiopian Church, however, DOES use the term “Ge’ez rite” on their liturgical text. Just like the Slavonic version of the Ruthenian liturgy used to be labeled “Slavonic Rite” and the English version “English Rite”) - Rite is a term overloaded with competing uses prior to the 1980’s.

It would be some fo the Coptic Orthodox referring to themselves as Arabic Orthodox - a few do, and it’s descriptive for the converts, but it’s not the official use.

 

[dzheremi]

The Ge’ez speakers use that term themselves

There are no Ge’ez speakers.

The Annuario uses “The Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic Church” not Ge’ez Rite. (The Ethiopian Church, however, DOES use the term “Ge’ez rite” on their liturgical text. Just like the Slavonic version of the Ruthenian liturgy used to be labeled “Slavonic Rite” and the English version “English Rite”) - Rite is a term overloaded with competing uses prior to the 1980’s.

So which is “official” - what the church calls itself, or what the Annuario calls it? I don’t mean this as a trap of any kind; I really don’t understand how this works. Besides, it really doesn’t take too much digging around Vatican websites to find “Ge’ez Rite” being used anyway, so I would assume that this is the most common way of talking about this church – see, for instance, Vatican Radio’s announcement of a mass held for the victims at Lampedusa, which refers to the “Alexandrian Ge’ez Rite of Ethiopia and Eritrea”. Meh.

It would be some fo the Coptic Orthodox referring to themselves as Arabic Orthodox - a few do

Where? I’ve never heard of that. Not to overgeneralize, but the Arab identity is hardly uncontested among Copts, so if this does in fact happen, it’s much more rare than calling the Ethiopian/Eritrean Catholic Church “Ge’ez Rite”.