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shlomo3amrooh
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Does anyone know how i can get a hold of this missal? It seems to have disapeared off the face of the earth.
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chaldobyzantine
Guest
Apparently my Googling skills have diminished. I can’t find any Syriac text (Catholic or Orthodox) of the Holy Qurbono according to St. James, except for the Maronite text. Malayalam and English are available though. That said, I think it would be even harder to find the 1922 missal online.
Send a PM to malphono. I’m sure he might have something.
Send a PM to malphono. I’m sure he might have something.
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shlomo3amrooh
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A 1922 missal exists. My copy of the Charet Seminary Missal of 1978 states that Moran Mor Ignatius Ephrem Rahmani had compiled a text in 1922.
I will speak to Malphono if he does not reply on this thread in the next 12 hours.
PS: Malphono has answered many of my problems on this forum before, quite fitting he has the name malphono…which means “teacher” in Syriac.
I will speak to Malphono if he does not reply on this thread in the next 12 hours.
PS: Malphono has answered many of my problems on this forum before, quite fitting he has the name malphono…which means “teacher” in Syriac.
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malphono
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Anyway, 'azizi, yes, indeed the Missal promulgated by the late Moran Mor Ignatious Ephrem in 1922 does exist, (I have held copies of it in my own hands in two different places over the years), but for the life of me I am unable to find a digitized version. I know that there are physical copies of it in Charfet, the Bibliotheque Nationale (Paris), and Catholic University (Washington, DC), among other places. The libraries, however, don’t seem to have a digitized version generally available, meaning that it appears one has to have certain scholarly credentials in order to access it. (In case you’re interested, the 1884 edition is available online in PDF format.)
That said, though, there should be examples of it in SCC monasteries and churches predating the post-conciliar era. My suggestion at this point would be to ask your parish priest. (Didn’t you once tell me he had some connection to Charfet?) If you can make contact with the chief archivist there, you should be able to get a digitized copy, probably in PDF format. (Oh, and BTW, IIRC, the Fenquitho was also reprinted the same year.) And, if you are successful, **please **let me know: I’d love to have a digitized copy of it (and, of course, the elusive Fenquitho) too!!!
I’m going to ask a question here for you and chaldobyzantine (and anyone else who may have a suggestion): do you know if the pre-conciliar Chaldean Missal is available in a digitized format?
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chaldobyzantine
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Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find one online. But to my surprise, I found the Chaldean Breviary from 1886 online:
contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/CUA/id/109522/rec/1
And the Syriac Catholic missal from 1843:
cdm.csbsju.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/SJRareBooks/id/7499/rec/30
And the Maronite missal from 1594, that for some reason is titled Missale Chaldaicum:
cdm.csbsju.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/SJRareBooks/id/2193/rec/29
Enjoy
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shlomo3amrooh
Guest
Shukran Malphono.
Anyway, 'azizi, yes, indeed the Missal promulgated by the late Moran Mor Ignatious Ephrem in 1922 does exist, (I have held copies of it in my own hands in two different places over the years), but for the life of me I am unable to find a digitized version. I know that there are physical copies of it in Charfet, the Bibliotheque Nationale (Paris), and Catholic University (Washington, DC), among other places. The libraries, however, don’t seem to have a digitized version generally available, meaning that it appears one has to have certain scholarly credentials in order to access it. (In case you’re interested, the 1884 edition is available online in PDF format.)
That said, though, there should be examples of it in SCC monasteries and churches predating the post-conciliar era. My suggestion at this point would be to ask your parish priest. (Didn’t you once tell me he had some connection to Charfet?) If you can make contact with the chief archivist there, you should be able to get a digitized copy, probably in PDF format. (Oh, and BTW, IIRC, the Fenquitho was also reprinted the same year.) And, if you are successful, **please **let me know: I’d love to have a digitized copy of it (and, of course, the elusive Fenquitho) too!!!
I’m going to ask a question here for you and chaldobyzantine (and anyone else who may have a suggestion): do you know if the pre-conciliar Chaldean Missal is available in a digitized format?
where can i find the PDF version of the 1884 missal? it would be interesting to read that considering the reforms in 1888
EDIT: i’ve scimmed through the link that chaldobyzantine has posted. It appears that Syriac characters have been used for Arabic Words (In the Syriac Missal). This is not foreign as there is a “Book of divinity” written by a Maronite patriarch that is written in the Lebanese dialect using Syriac characters.
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chaldobyzantine
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You’re right! I only noticed Western Syriac characters and assumed it was in Syriac. Skimming through a couple pages I noticed the same thing! It’s a reverse of what we modernly refer to as Garshuni. Just found out the original definition of Garshuni is Arabic written using Syriac characters too. This is pretty new to me, because I never would have thought the reverse would be practical in a world where Arabic literacy was more common and Arabic characters were being used for Turkish in the Ottoman Empire.
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shlomo3amrooh
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It is pretty cool isn’t it? And this is only a few 100 years ago. Just shows how quickly we got rid of Syro-Aramaic. When we had preserved it for the better part of 1800 years.
And yes, the original of Qarshuni is infact Arabic written in Syriac Characters.
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dzheremi
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As pointed out in this very interesting paper on the history of Garshuni, that term originally applied to Arabic written in Syriac, but has since been widened to include any non-Syriac language written in Syriac (cf. “Ajami”, for the writing of non-Arabic languages in Arabic script). Also from that paper, we learn that the earliest known Garshuni text is from the early 6th century, thus predating Islam. Hmmm…it’s a little funny that it ended up in Egypt, at Deir al-Suryan, at about the same time as the earliest examples of Arabic written in Coptic began to appear in Egypt (see EJ Brill’s First Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Houtsma, for more on that). I do not know of any special name for that phenomenon (I’ve only seen “Copto-Arabic” in scholarly articles), but it strikes me as even less suited for the job than the Syriac script. 
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malphono
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Oops … that was a typo.
It was the 1843 one that I found. Sorry for the confusion.
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shlomo3amrooh
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Where is the PDF version of it? ** chaldobyzantine** posted a scanned version that’s hard to get off the website.Oops … that was a typo.
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malphono
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Neither could I, and I’ve tried umpteen times. I suppose it’s the same sort of thing as with the Syriac and Maronite books: one needs certain credentials in order to access them. I can understand that for the physical books, but it seems kind of pointless for digitized copies. Oh well …
At one time, some 40+ years ago, I had found a Chaldean hand missal (not the altar edition), but I ended-up giving it to a young Chaldean fellow whom I met at school. Never saw one again.
Thanks for that.
Do you know if there’s a way to download the whole thing, volume by volume? it’s a practical impossibility to do it page-by-page.
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malphono
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chaldobyzantine
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Yes, in the content panel to the right of the document, under each of the three volumes, there is a PDF link under “Printing Version.” It’s a pretty amazing document, even more amazing that I can actually understand some of it.Thanks for that.
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malphono
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Thanks … I missed that part of the link, but I’m trying it now.Yes, in the content panel to the right of the document, under each of the three volumes, there is a PDF link under “Printing Version.” It’s a pretty amazing document, even more amazing that I can actually understand some of it.
Once I get it downloaded, I’m sure I’ll have a lot of fun with the Chaldean script. I wish it was in Estangela. It would have made my life easier.
EDIT: shame they don’t have the old Missal there as well.
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chaldobyzantine
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I’ve always found Chaldean script the easiest to read, and that Estrangela is practically identical. I never really got the hand of Western script, due me not learning the vowels, and kap and beth, and gamal and lamadh, looking too similar to each other.Thanks … I missed that part of the link, but I’m trying it now.
Once I get it downloaded, I’m sure I’ll have a lot of fun with the Chaldean script. I wish it was in Estangela. It would have made my life easier.
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malphono
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I have a similar problem in reverse: kaph & beth in Chaldean look too similar to me, and sometimes I even get one or the other (or both) confused daleth and/or resh. The other thing is the penultimate tau: it often looks to me like 'ayn followed by aleph. Funny though, a priest-friend of mine has no problem with Chaldean script but can’t do Estrangela to save his life.
The so-called “Greek vowels” used in Serta are fairly easy, once you get used to the placement. But I can manage with the point-vowels that are often used interchangeably, even in some older Maronite texts.
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shlomo3amrooh
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**malphono **and **chaldobyzantine **thanks for your help!
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malphono
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