Syriac Catholics and Messianic Jews

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porthos11 said:
Ultimately, “Messianic Jews” are really nothing more than evangelical Protestants.
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Downright wrong.
Messianic Jews are Jews who believe that Yeshua is HaMashiach; the Messiah that IHVH promised to send, through His prophets.
So, yes: Messianic Jews are Christians, because they follow Christ, but not neccessarily “evangelical” in the usual usage of that word. They can be Lutherans, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Baptists, etc…
And non-denominational also.

Furthermore, there are entire communities of Messianic Jews, with their own synagogues, who practise in a way that would exclude them from the group of “evangelical”, but who are still firmly Christian.
 
Valke2 said:
Many, if not most, messianic jews were never jews to begin with. That is, they were not born jewish and the only conversion process they went through was a messianic jew conversion process, whatever that may be. Messianic Jews make, at best, a dubious claim of being jewish. Hebrew Catholics do not make any such claim.
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Valke2:

I respect your entitlement to your opinion and certainly to your faith beliefs, but some of your factual statements in this thread are mistaken.

I’m pretty certain that non-jewish persons within the messianic jewish community make up a relatively small percentage of their numbers. There is, to be fair, a “Hebrew Roots” movement of gentiles who have adopted elements of the mosaic law into their faith as well as many of the indicia of judaism (but that is a fringe group).

Most messianic jews are just that - jews who have come to believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. Its not more complicated than that.

As to the idea that you can’t be Jewish and believe that Jesus is the Messiah - that is in fact a general position within modern rabbinic judaism - but not from scripture. How can you cease to be jewish by having faith in the messiah? They believe (I believe) Jesus is the messiah and, if right, they are the most faithful of Jews. If they are incorrect - why are they different than our lubbuvich friends who claim their rebbe is the messiah - or those jews of the past who followed and put faith in any number of what turned out to be “false messiahs” - they are all still considered jews. Ironically, rabbic judaism says you can be an “athiest” but still be a jew - but profess faith that Yeshua is the Messiah and you cease to be a jew?
Scripture defines jew by reference to paternal descent (period) . Rabbinic judaism ultimately changed this to “material descent”. Both of my parents (father and mother) are Jewish and I was bar mitzvahed and confirmed in the Jewish faith. I believe in Christ as the Messiah. I’m happy to call myself a Christian (and soon, I pray, a Catholic), but I dont’ believe there is any basis for saying I am no longer a Jew (descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who professes faith in the one true God) (lets avoid a trinity thread - but that doctrine is embedded within the Hebrew scriptures as well).

Blessings,

Brian
 
Robbinson said:
Valke2:

I respect your entitlement to your opinion and certainly to your faith beliefs, but some of your factual statements in this thread are mistaken.

I’m pretty certain that non-jewish persons within the messianic jewish community make up a relatively small percentage of their numbers. There is, to be fair, a “Hebrew Roots” movement of gentiles who have adopted elements of the mosaic law into their faith as well as many of the indicia of judaism (but that is a fringe group).

Most messianic jews are just that - jews who have come to believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah. Its not more complicated than that.

As to the idea that you can’t be Jewish and believe that Jesus is the Messiah - that is in fact a general position within modern rabbinic judaism - but not from scripture. How can you cease to be jewish by having faith in the messiah? They believe (I believe) Jesus is the messiah and, if right, they are the most faithful of Jews. If they are incorrect - why are they different than our lubbuvich friends who claim their rebbe is the messiah - or those jews of the past who followed and put faith in any number of what turned out to be “false messiahs” - they are all still considered jews. Ironically, rabbic judaism says you can be an “athiest” but still be a jew - but profess faith that Yeshua is the Messiah and you cease to be a jew?
Scripture defines jew by reference to paternal descent (period) . Rabbinic judaism ultimately changed this to “material descent”. Both of my parents (father and mother) are Jewish and I was bar mitzvahed and confirmed in the Jewish faith. I believe in Christ as the Messiah. I’m happy to call myself a Christian (and soon, I pray, a Catholic), but I dont’ believe there is any basis for saying I am no longer a Jew (descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who professes faith in the one true God) (lets avoid a trinity thread - but that doctrine is embedded within the Hebrew scriptures as well).

Blessings,

Brian
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I meant that the belief in the messiah being God is contrary to Jewish belief.

Jews for Jesus is a Christian[1] evangelistic organization that focuses specifically on the conversion of Jews to Christianity, viewing its followers — either Jewish as defined by Jewish law, or Jews according to Jews for Jesus — as “living out their Jewishness.”[2] Jews for Jesus defines “Jewish” in terms of parentage and as a birthright, regardless of religious belief.[3] The identification of Jews for Jesus as a Jewish organization is overwhelmingly rejected by Jewish religious denominations[4][5] and secular Jewish groups[6][7] due to the Christian - specifically evangelical - beliefs of its members. The group’s evangelical activities are opposed also by some Christian organizations and scholars.[8][9]

(wikipedia)
Messianic Judaism is a Christian movement whose adherents believe that Jesus of Nazareth, whom they call Yeshua, is both the resurrected Jewish Messiah and their Divine Savior
Also from wikipedia:
 
Valke2 said:
I meant that the belief in the messiah being God is contrary to Jewish belief.
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Thanks for the clarification generally - very helpful. Jews for Jesus is an evangelical group - but “messianic judaism” is much larger than group like Jews for Jesus and Chosen Peoples ministries.

Re: the quote above - while belief that the Messiah is God is not a conventional (modern rabbinic) interpretation of scripture, it is not contrary to scripture. Here are just a couple of messianic verses for you to think about relating to the issue of messiah and his divine nature (there are others - perhaps the subejct of a separte thread in the Non-Catholic Religion section would be more appropriate):

Isaiah 9:6 (For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”)

Sirach 24:8-9:
"Then the Creator of all things gave me a commandment, and the one who created me assigned a place for my tent. And he said, `Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel receive your inheritance.’
24:9
From eternity, in the beginning, he created me, and for eternity I shall not cease to exist. "

(Sirach is a jewish writing that was included in the septuagint - while not included ultimately in the Jewish cannon as established by the Jews well after Christ’s death and resurrection, it is a Jewish writing indicative of Jewish thinking of the time and still revered by Jewish scholars - much as Macabees (also included in the Septuagent and which is the only place in “scripture” which describes the feast of the dedication of the Temple (now known has Chanukkah).

Blessings,

Brian
 
malphono said:
.x x x.

Now this I am not familiar with. Are those parishes composed of Russian Jews who converted to the Latin Church and simply refuse to learn Hebrew? Or, are they ethnic Russian Catholics who happen to find themselves in Israel? If the latter, the second question is: are they Roman Rite or are they Russian ECC who are simply under Latin Rite jurisdiction in Israel?
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The 2 attached communities of Russian immigrants are not “full-fledged” parishes but are just worshipping communties of Russian immigrants:

**(**1) In North Israel, the priest in charge is the Rev. Slavomir Abramovsky; and

(2) In Central-South Israel, the priest in charge is the Rev. Jan Hlavka.

Fr. Roberson of CNEWA reports that communities of Russian Byzantine Catholics are present in the diaspora only in these countries: USA (4 communities), 2 each in Argentina, France, and Germany, and 1 each in Australia, Brazil, and Italy. All of them fall under the jurisdiction of the local Latin bishops. No mention is made about Israel.

So, we may assume that these Russian immigrants could be Jews who converted to the Latin Church or are a small number of Russian Byzantine Catholics who are temporarily under the jurisdiction of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem through the Custos of the Holy Land.
 
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