Syro-Malabar Liturgy.

  • Thread starter Thread starter bpbasilphx
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
you have to publish a book about how kottayam sucks.sour grapes issue
vallam also sucks visited kerela anywhere south of thrissur.who helps you in writing fictions this much hate for ceyrian christians?your posts are so parochial,hateful.are you catholic .share your historic studies here.make a rite for thrissur seperting till angamali.racist scoundrals trying to pretend as ceyrian.this isdone by someone aginst ceyrian malabar catholic church.thrissur catholics exodus to paravoor and east after tipu sultans war.the latincatholics are spreading hate aginst original ceyrian christians(who can be idenitifiedby psyical features unlike latin convert)
watched in asianet about rioting cmi fathers of thalore infant jesus church&monestry to come under thrissur arch diocese protesting in road against Bishop Mar Andrew Thazath.disappointing.thrissur has no history including palayoor with the latin catholics who are writing fictions against original ceyrian malabar catholics of malayattoor,paravoor,changanassery,vallam,pala,kanjripilly,thodupuzha etc.thrissur catholics are latins in general.
It is a pity that you mistake my attempt to get at REAL history as a case of sour grapes.

I hope at least a few people are encouraged to seek more information on the topic as a result of reading my posts.

Being told that all ancient native Christians of Malabar Coast schismed at Mattancherry, Cochin, fifty four years after they came in communion with RCC, is what gave me the impression that something was dreadfully foul about the narration of history of Christianity in Kerala. The story of migrations FROM Thrissur simply thickened the plot. The fairy tale of one family knowing the names of all the families converted by Apostle Thomas in 52 AD, completed the picture.

Now it is a whodunnit thriller that needs to be put together! But before that can be done, one needs to know more details of how all the Portuguese, Dutch, European Jews, and British who came to Kerala from 1500 - 1947 lived and where they went.

It is time for Advent now. So it should not be wasted on chasing up whodunnits. Preparing for Christmas is a better thing to do. It can be done in the Latinized Syriac of 1599 or genuine Syriac Middle Eastern in 19th century style. Or any number of styles available in the Catholic or Orthodox Church.
 
It should come as a consolation to all that in this day and age, it matters little what one’s ancestors did or didn’t do five centuries or even nineteen and a half centuries ago. Such a discussion is merely inconsequential small talk.

So take it easy folks. Write anything you like, if that makes you happy. Just be prepared to have someone like me question the logic and murmur a word of protest once in a while.
 
Originally Posted by EagleWatch: We certainly have communion with one of the Orthodox Church despite doctrinal differences - That is with Independant Orthodox church of Thozhiyoor.
Originally Posted by LDNCatholic:
Which is a breakaway group less than 300 years old.
Does that church have communion with any Orthodox Church?
The history of non-Catholic churches and the Latin Rite schismatics of the 19th century fits neatly like a jigsaw puzzle when one reads up the secular history of Kerala. The big piece missing in the puzzle is the Dutch period 1658 - 1795.

In 1663, Dutch captured Cochin and all non-Catholics came under their control. It is known that in the nearly one and half centuries that they had control on Malabar Coast and nearly two centuries on Coromandel Coast, there were lots of migrations. European Jews were also among them. That explains the presence of White Jews and their Jewish colony in Mattancherry, Cochin. The ancient Jewish community, who resembled the locals and lived among them were described as Black Jews (when books mentioned them for the first time).

The Dutch had a fort not only in Cochin, but also in other places along the Malabar Coast. The closest to Thrissur District was in Chetwai (Chowghat). In 1693, the Dutch captured a Nambudiri controlled principality, Kunnamkulangerra, now known as Kunnamkulam. That is when a Dutch settlement was established, a segregated residential area, in the style of colonialists. A small ancient community of Christians lived in Kunnamkulam, but they were Syrian Catholics in communion with RCC since 1599.

Thozhiyoor Sabha was started by ONE single non-Catholic who came from Cochin to Guruvayoor in 1772 (Dutch period !) because he was very much upset when he was not chosen as the leader of the non-Catholic group, as he expected to be, or had the right to be. He is said to have spent many months in solitude and prayer at Guruvayoor, and finally someone gave him a place of his own because of his piety. After that he gathered a small group of followers, either new converts or from among other non-Catholics in Cochin/Kunnamkulam, which has grown into 7000 members by now. It is hardly possible that anyone from the ancient community of Syrian Catholics in communion with RCC would have joined a one man church. It had been hard enough to persuade them to accept the Roman Pope, even after they were without a bishop for two years from 1597 - 1599.

In 1806, Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited the non-Catholic group in Kunnamkulam and promised to help them with Syriac Bibles etc. The visit of CMS missionaries followed. CMS missionaries set up a small mission centre for all non-Catholics in Thrissur district by 1840. They had operated from Cochin since 1808, and Kunnamkulam had been among the six mission stations.

Thrissur town and its surroundings had at the end of eighteenth century (1790 - ) had a lot of migrations from the area of Cochin, because that is when the town and commercial centre was built by the king of Cochin.

Is it sheer coincidence that all the non-Catholics who joined some Middle Eastern Church or the other and call themselves independent Orthodox, whatever that means, were first visited by Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, and later were the object of intense education by CMS missionaries, including Lutheran Basel Mission? To my knowledge the term Syrian Christians was coined for this non-Catholic group by him. (The ancient Christian community of natives had been referred to as Christians of St Thomas or St Thomas Christians.) And the establishment of Orthodox churches, known first only as Jacobites, all happened shortly after the Dutch left, after having been in Malabar Coast for nearly a century and a half?

At the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan, there had been no talk of the non-Catholic group being locals or having anything to do with the St Thomas tradition of Malabar Coast. They gave themselves clearly a migrant group who had never had anything to do with the Roman Catholic church at any time.

I ask myself if these non-Catholic groups are really Dutch Calvinists and Jewish Christians from Holland/Spain/Portugal turned Anglicans turned Middle Eastern Orthodox. Lutheran converts had disappeared into Orthodox churches when Basel Mission was shut down. The Latin Rite Catholics of Diocese of Cochin schismed, adopting the same Syriac Rite as the Syrian Addai and Mari Liturgy of Catholics of Malabar, because at the time Portuguese Padroado was suppressed in 1836, it not possible to switch from Latin Rite to a Syrian rite church in Thrissur. The Carmelites of Veropoly, to prevent further schisms would later make arrangements for Catholics to switch Rites, by creating a new Carmelite congregation for locals at Mannanam, near Kottayam. It is a wonder that any Christian in Kerala is willing to be counted as Latin Rite Catholic at all because obviously all want to be known as Nambudiri Brahmins and direct converts of Apostle Thomas.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=320874&page=3
 
Congratulations to Mariamkutty for spitting her dirt in many threads. One post could have been more than enough for you this !
 
What has Mariamkutty’s repetitive postings to do with Syro Malabar Liturgy !

Is that what local homely ancient christians who cant even trace 7 generations does when asks about liturgy !

Nothing more to say about this hereditary dhobhi nature.🙂
 
What has Mariamkutty’s repetitive postings to do with Syro Malabar Liturgy !

Is that what local homely ancient christians who cant even trace 7 generations does when asks about liturgy !

Nothing more to say about this hereditary dhobhi nature.🙂
LukaThomas, I think you should get your genes tested for Portuguese and Dutch ancestry. That explains your hatred and contempt for locals who won’t buy your theories in spite of you trying to force them with humiliation and veiled threats. The Portuguese were on Malabar Coast from 1500 - 1663, remember? The Dutch were on Malabar Coast from 1658 - 1795. As early as 1693, they set up a Dutch settlement in Kunnamkulangera aka Kunnamkulam. It was one of the first six missionary centers of CMS missionaries in 1808, two years after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan to Malabar Coast, which included Kunnamkulam.

It is the Syriac Liturgies of the New Age churches in Kerala which were picked up from the Middle East in the nineteenth century and modified to suit local needs, with great British scholarship. Remember?

I suggest you get some help to participate in online discussions without feeling the need to insult fellow bloggers because you can’t tolerate a difference of opinion.
 
Why don’t you live this thread on Syro Malabar Liturgy than putting your fictitious thrishurian hereditary baggage everywhere even in Syro Malabar Liturgy.

It is you who need help here. What is your intention in spreading your nonsense in a thread on Syro Malabar liturgy ?

You should learn to behave yourself in an online forum.
 
Why don’t you live this thread on Syro Malabar Liturgy than putting your fictitious thrishurian hereditary baggage everywhere even in Syro Malabar Liturgy.
Mr LukaThomas, I suggest you take a break until you have learned to have civil discussions on an online forum. Please don’t insult the intelligence of people who read this forum. Everyone are capable of making up their own minds, and that includes looking for more information from primary sources which have not been considered until now.

That important information is the secular history of Kerala under Portuguese, Dutch and British from 1500 - 1947.
 
You have some serious problems in diverting the threads here and you have not even spared the thread on Syro Malabar liturgy. Earlier you used to do that with repetitive postings !

What is your problem with Syro Malabar Church ? Now that i posted few pictorial representation of Syro Malabar Qurbana, its your turn to divert the thread !

Rather than giving advices try to learn how to behave yourself.
 
Mr LukaThomas, people looking for information need to know what to look for.

Renaming places destroys the history of a people. Thus it is necessary for people to know that present Kerala used to be known as Malabar Coast and that** it consisted of several independent kingdoms before British Raj** consolidated them into three **administrative regions **during their time 1795 - 1947. The three regions at the time of British Raj were:

**Princely state of Travancore
Princely State of Cochin
Malabar District of Madras Presidency
**
Unless people know that the word Kerala didn’t exist until a state was created in free India along linguistic lines in 1956, they will not find any information prior to 1956. Unless people know that even the Princely States of Travancore, Cochin and Malabar District didn’t exist before 1795, during British Raj, they will not find information prior to 1795. If people did not know the region of Kerala was known as Malabar Coast, and it consisted of several independent kingdoms, they cannot find old information relating to the period before 1795.
People also need to know that three European power had sway in the region of Malabar Coast for four and a half centuries, so information about the Malabar Coast is spread out around the world, more concentrated in three countries.

**Most important of all, people need to know that according to local tradition Apostle Thomas landed in Kodungallur, called Cranganore by outsiders. The place where Apostle Thomas landed was never known as Maliankara, Malienkeria, Malinakarara etc. That name was invented by the New Age church groups in the nineteenth century to wipe out local traditions and substitute their own. See of Cranganore is not fiction. Similarly the claim that Kodungallur was known as Muziris in Greek literature is similarly an eighteenth century fiction. Malabar Coast had trade with Arabs, but NOT Greeks. The first European to come to Malabar Coast was Vasco da Gama in 1498. **
 
There is a limit to divert every thread and you have crossed the limit. If you have nothing to say about Syro Malabar liturgy can you yourself find a solution to your personal problems.

Why don’t you publish your propaganda theories and get those peer reviewed than spitting your venom not sparing any thread here on Syro Malabar Church. Do you want everyone here to waste their time in finding a public solution to your personal problem. If that is the case, why don’t you start a thread in respective section.

Since now I have posted few pictorial representation of Syro Malabar Qurbana, you now want to divert the thread and start your game again. Shame on you !
 
It is equally important to know the various Christian groups who worked on Malabar Coast

Catholic religious orders under Portuguese Padroado:
  1. **Augustinians
  2. Franciscans
  3. Dominicans
  4. Jesuits**
Catholic religious order under Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide:

**5. Carmelites (OCD)

**

European Protestants:

**Dutch Calvinists (1658 - 1795)

Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan of Church of England (1806 - 1815)

Christian Mission Society (1808 - )

London Mission Society (1806 - )

Church of England

Church of Scotland

Lutheran Basel Mission (1833 - )

among others…**
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top