T-Rex bone discovery supports a young earth

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PhilVaz:
The Catholic position on this is clear: young earthism is nonsense.Phil P
😃 You are absolutely correct! I’m confident Father Coyne played an important part in changing Cardinal Ratzinger mind. 😃 On August 6, 2005, the director of the Vatican Observatory for 25 years, the hugely respected Fr George Coyne SJ wrote in the English Catholic journal, the Tablet.

"
So why does there seem to be a persistent retreat in the Church from attempts to establish a dialogue with the community of scientists, religious believers or otherwise? There appears to exist a nagging fear in the Church that a universe, which science has established as evolving for 13.7 x 1 billion years since the Big Bang and in which life, beginning in its most primitive forms at about 12 x 1 billion years from the Big Bang, evolved through a process of random genetic mutations and natural selection, escapes God’s dominion. That fear is groundless. Science is completely neutral with respect to philosophical or theological implications that may be drawn from its conclusions. Those conclusions are always subject to improvement. That is why science is such an interesting adventure and scientists curiously interesting creatures. But for someone to deny the best of today’s science on religious grounds is to live in that groundless fear just mentioned.

"Perhaps the following picture of God’s relation to the created universe, as that universe is seen by science and interpreted by a religious believer, may help to assuage that fear. In the universe, as known by science, there are essentially three processes at work: chance, necessity and the fertility of the universe. The classical question as to whether the human being came about by chance, and so has no need of God, or by necessity, and so through the action of a designer God, is no longer valid. And so any attempt to answer it is doomed to failure. The fertility of the universe, now well established by science, is an essential ingredient, and the meaning of chance and necessity must be seen in light of that fertility. Chance processes and necessary processes are continuously interacting in a universe that is 13.7 x 1 billion years old and contains about 1022 stars. Those stars as they “live” and “die” release to the universe the chemical abundance of the elements necessary for life. In their thermonuclear furnaces stars convert the lighter elements into the heavier elements. There is no other way, for instance, to have the abundance of carbon necessary to make a toenail than through the thermonuclear processes in stars. We are all literally born of stardust.

"How did that come about? Take one simple example: two hydrogen atoms meet in the early universe. By necessity (the laws of chemical combination) they are destined to become a hydrogen molecule. But by chance the temperature and pressure conditions at that moment are not correct for them to combine. And so they wander through the universe until they finally do combine. And there are trillions and trillions of such atoms doing the same thing. Of course, by the interaction of chance and necessity, many hydrogen molecules are formed and eventually many of them combine with oxygen to make water, and so on, until we have very complex molecules and eventually the most complicated organism that science knows: the human brain. While science cannot claim to know all of the links in this evolutionary chain, nor especially the passage to living organisms, there is very strong evidence for a large degree of continuity in the whole process. Carbon, for instance, found abundantly in both biotic and non-biotic systems, has remarkable bonding properties and those are necessary for life as we know it. Thermodynamics works in the same way in the non-living and living world. Information storage and transmittal is very similar in non-living and living systems. Life began on the earth, which formed about 4.5 x 1 billion years ago, within about the first 400 million years, a relatively rapid transition to life. In fact, the search for life’s origins may be in vain. There may be no clear origin, no clear threshold as seen by science, between the non-living and the living.

“This process of continuous evolution, called by scientists chemical complexification, has a certain intrinsic natural directionality in that the more complex an organism becomes the more determined is its future. This does not necessarily mean, however, that there need be a person directing the process, nor that the process is necessarily an “unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection” as Cardinal Schönborn describes it. It is precisely the fertility of the universe and the interaction of chance and necessity in that universe which are responsible for the directionality. Thus far science.”

(continued)
 
"Now, the religious believer asks, where does God the creator feature in this scientific scenario? If one believes in God’s loving relationship with his creation, and especially with the human beings made in his image and likeness, and if one also respects the science described above, then there are marvellous opportunities to renew one’s faith in God’s relationship to his creation.

"It is unfortunate that creationism has come to mean some fundamentalistic, literal, scientific interpretation of Genesis. Judaeo-Christian faith is radically creationist, but in a totally different sense. It is rooted in a belief that everything depends upon God, or better, all is a gift from God. The universe is not God and it cannot exist independently of God. Neither pantheism nor naturalism is true. But, if we confront what we know of our origins scientifically with religious faith in God the Creator – if, that is, we take the results of modern science seriously – it is difficult to believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient in the sense of many of the scholastic philosophers. For the believer, science tells us of a God who must be very different from God as seen by them.

"This stress on our scientific knowledge is not to place a limitation upon God. Far from it. It reveals a God who made a universe that has within it a certain dynamism and thus participates in the very creativity of God. Such a view of creation can be found in early Christian writings, especially in those of St Augustine in his comments on Genesis. If they respect the results of modern science and, indeed, the best of modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe as a watch that ticks along regularly. Perhaps God should be seen more as a parent or as one who speaks encouraging and sustaining words. Scripture is very rich in these thoughts. It presents, indeed anthropomorphically, a God who gets angry, who disciplines, a God who nurtures the universe, who empties himself in Christ the incarnate Word. Thus God’s revelation of himself in the Book of Scripture would be reflected in our knowledge of the universe, so that, as Galileo was fond of stating, the Book of Scripture and the Book of Nature speak of the same God.

"Theologians already possess the concept of God’s continuous creation with which to explore the implications of modern science for religious belief. God is working with the universe. The universe has a certain vitality of its own like a child does. It has the ability to respond to words of endearment and encouragement. You discipline a child but you try to preserve and enrich the individual character of the child and its own passion for life. A parent must allow the child to grow into adulthood, to come to make its own choices, to go on its own way in life. Words that give life are richer than mere commands or information. In such wise ways we might imagine that God deals with the universe.

These are very weak images, but how else do we talk about God? We can only come to know God by analogy. The universe as we know it today through science is one way to derive an analogical knowledge of God. For those who believe modern science does say something to us about God, it provides a challenge, an enriching challenge, to traditional beliefs about God. God in his infinite freedom continuously creates a world that reflects that freedom at all levels of the evolutionary process to greater and greater complexity.God lets the world be what it will be in its continuous evolution. He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves. Is such thinking adequate to preserve the special character attributed by religious thought to the emergence not only of life but also of spirit, while avoiding a crude creationism? Only a protracted dialogue will tell. But we should not close off the dialogue and darken the already murky waters by fearing that God will be abandoned if we embrace the best of modern science."

George Coyne SJ is Director of the Vatican Observatory.

thetablet.co.uk/cgi-bin/archive_db.cgi/tablet-01063
 
316 << a quick question, are these positions of Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Shonborn OFFICIAL Church positions or private interpretations? >>

They are as “official” as you are gonna get. The Church doesn’t claim to speak infallibly on issues of science. The Vatican Council I definition on infallibility specifically restricts its definition to “faith and morals.”

This document was published under Cardinal Ratzinger’s presidency last year as head of doctrine in the Church. He is now Pope as you know. Someone like Jimmy Akin or whoever can tell you what kind of authority the International Theological Commission has, but it at least tells us the Church supports modern science.

Science itself is tentative and fallible. But it is also clear that the Popes from Pius XII, to John Paul II, to Benedict XVI, to Cardinal Schonborn, to Cardinal Poupard, to Fr. George Coyne of the Vatican Observatory, et al and the members of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences support modern science. They do not reject astronomy, geology, biology, physics, genetics, or any of the sciences like young-earth creationists must do.

Now what about your evidence for a young earth? The moon dust argument? The no transitional fossils argument? Will you admit you were wrong there? That will be a start. No harm done. 👍

LEARN the science as best you can (as I am trying to do), and LEARN what the modern Popes have written on the science. Also I have listed 3 excellent books above by Ken Miller, by Keith Miller, and by Darrel Falk that deal with the science and theology both.

Phil P
 
praise be to GOD and to His Most Blessed Virgin Mary!!! This answer just came to me while worshipping GOD. It is SO SIMPLE!!!

First of all, as you yourself said, Phil, the Church is infallible only in matters of Faith and Morals. Thus this issue is just slightly out of the Church’s area of expertise and domain. So if a certain priest or bishop or cardinal or pope believes in evolution himself that is beside the point and not binding to our Faith.

But the answer, Phil, came to me while worshipping God downstairs while listening to a modern Christian Praise CD. GOD gives us the answer, Phil, to our investigation into origins of the earth and of man. The Bible says that “in Adam all die,” and that “death came with the first sin.” Praise be to GOD and to the VIRGIN!!!

There you have it, Phil, the answer! “It is impossible for GOD to lie,” writes SAINT PAUL. Therefore the Church REQUIRES us to believe that Adam and Eve were real people and were the FIRST humans. We may NOT believe they were a group of people–no they were the FIRST TWO PEOPLE. And the Bible says that there was NO DEATH before Adam and Eve. How simple can it be, Phil? PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Thus there can be no millions and billions of years of natural selection and extinction—Phil it is IMPOSSIBLE, for “God cannot lie.”

Sorry Phil, unless you want to huck your Bible out the window, you may not believe that there was death before Adam.

Once again i praise the LORD and the MOST BLESSED VIRGIN MARY.

By the way Phil, as is mentioned in this thread, the SAINTS have always believed, up to the present day of skepticism that GOD created the world in six days. And if you look at the writings of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich and Blessed Mary of Agreda, who both had mystical revelations on the Creation of the Universe and of the Life and Ministry of JESUS and the VIRGIN, you will find that GOD told them how old is the earth and the dates of the Biblical events such as the flood. They both were told by GOD that there were 5000 years of history before the INCARNATION OF CHRIST.

PRAISE BE TO THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!!!

sorry Groundhog Phil, i can no longer believe your theories. I place higher the Word of God, and the Writing of the SAINTS.
 
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three-sixteen:
praise be to GOD and to His Most Blessed Virgin Mary!!! This answer just came to me while worshipping GOD. It is SO SIMPLE!!!

First of all, as you yourself said, Phil, the Church is infallible only in matters of Faith and Morals. Thus this issue is just slightly out of the Church’s area of expertise and domain. So if a certain priest or bishop or cardinal or pope believes in evolution himself that is beside the point and not binding to our Faith.

But the answer, Phil, came to me while worshipping God downstairs while listening to a modern Christian Praise CD. GOD gives us the answer, Phil, to our investigation into origins of the earth and of man. The Bible says that “in Adam all die,” and that “death came with the first sin.” Praise be to GOD and to the VIRGIN!!!

There you have it, Phil, the answer! “It is impossible for GOD to lie,” writes SAINT PAUL. Therefore the Church REQUIRES us to believe that Adam and Eve were real people and were the FIRST humans. We may NOT believe they were a group of people–no they were the FIRST TWO PEOPLE. And the Bible says that there was NO DEATH before Adam and Eve. How simple can it be, Phil? PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Thus there can be no millions and billions of years of natural selection and extinction—Phil it is IMPOSSIBLE, for “God cannot lie.”

Sorry Phil, unless you want to huck your Bible out the window, you may not believe that there was death before Adam.

Once again i praise the LORD and the MOST BLESSED VIRGIN MARY.

By the way Phil, as is mentioned in this thread, the SAINTS have always believed, up to the present day of skepticism that GOD created the world in six days. And if you look at the writings of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich and Blessed Mary of Agreda, who both had mystical revelations on the Creation of the Universe and of the Life and Ministry of JESUS and the VIRGIN, you will find that GOD told them how old is the earth and the dates of the Biblical events such as the flood. They both were told by GOD that there were 5000 years of history before the INCARNATION OF CHRIST.

PRAISE BE TO THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!!!

sorry Groundhog Phil, i can no longer believe your theories. I place higher the Word of God, and the Writing of the SAINTS.
:banghead:
 
sorry, Phil, i left something out. For giving me this answer, I would also like to praise the MOST GLORIOUS SAINT JOSEPH!!!
 
The following text is taken from this url:

nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/pfw111805.htm

*In an Oct. 2, 2005, catechetical lecture delivered in St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna, he [Schönborn] said: “I see no difficulty in joining belief in the Creator with the theory of evolution, but under the prerequisite that the borders of scientific theory are maintained.”

Schönborn announced that he intends to deal with the theme of “creation and evolution” in his catechetical talks this year, but not as a scientist. “I do not intend to delve into the scientific details; in that domain I would doubtlessly not be qualified,” he [Schönborn] said.

The Vienna archdiocese published an English translation of
Schönborn’s lecture in early November to rebut charges that the
cardinal had “pulled back” from his New York Times piece.
In the lecture, Schönborn argues aggressively that Christianity actually made modern science possible by rejecting both the pagan deification of nature, and the Gnostic rejection of nature.
“The proposition that the relationship between the Church and science is a bad one, that faith and science, since time immemorial, have been in a state of interminable conflict, belongs to the enduring myths of our time, indeed, I would say, to the acquired prejudices of our time,” he [Schönborn] said.

“Many historical examples demonstrate how the creation faith served as the rational foundation for scientific research,” Schönborn said, pointing to the Austrian Benedictine monk Gregor Mendel, the founder of modern genetics.

Schönborn said that the real problem between science and religion is the perennial risk of “border violations,” meaning the temptation of one side or the other to exceed its competence.

He offered an example from Sir Julian Huxley [Neo-Darwinist] in 1959, on the centenary of Darwin’s Origin of Species: “In the Evolutionary pattern of thought there is no longer either need or room for the supernatural,” Huxley wrote. “The earth was not created, it evolved. So did all animals and plants that inhabit it, including our human selves, mind and soul as well as brain and body. So did religion. Evolutionary man can no longer take refuge from his loneliness in the arms of a divinized father figure.”’

This, Schönborn said, is not science.

“I am convinced that this is not a claim within the realm of the natural sciences, but rather the expression of a worldview,” he [Schonborn]. “It is essentially a ‘confession of faith’ – that faith being materialism.” *
It appears to me we have posters in this thread that aren’t scientifically qualified therefore border violators. Karl Keating, what would you purpose? A scientific forum? 😃
 
But I thought that dinosaur bones were buried in the earth by the devil to trick people into believing that a) the earth is millions of years old, and b) that dinosaurs actually existed. After all, there is no mention of dinosaurs in the Bible.

I hope you realize that I don’t believe this. I saw a book in a Christian bookstore with that teaching in it. Can you believe it?
 
Mom of one:
But I thought that dinosaur bones were buried in the earth by the devil to trick people into believing that a) the earth is millions of years old, and b) that dinosaurs actually existed. After all, there is no mention of dinosaurs in the Bible.

I hope you realize that I don’t believe this. I saw a book in a Christian bookstore with that teaching in it. Can you believe it?
Yes, I can believe it. Look at this thread. A sad day indeed when people are allowed to continue to mock science. We need a science forum with moderators who will erase vindictive remarks by unpleasant posters whose only wish is to poke fun and try their best to turn Science into a laughing joke. I joined Catholic.com to learn about the wonderful world of science but every thread seems to get bogged down with ‘prejudices of our time’. Science isn’t about prejudices! I’ll continue to pray Mom of one. I hope you will too. 🙂
 
momofone Dinosaurs DO exist in the Bible. In chapter 40 of Job two types of Dinosaurs are mentioned: Leviathan and Behemoth. Read it. also, dinosaur bones and any kind of bones prove only ONE THING: that animal DIED.
 
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three-sixteen:
momofone Dinosaurs DO exist in the Bible. In chapter 40 of Job two types of Dinosaurs are mentioned: Leviathan and Behemoth. Read it. also, dinosaur bones and any kind of bones prove only ON THING: that animal DIED.
It’s fairly impressive to me that EVERY being known as dinosaur has since died, that their bones fossilized, they group by similarity in the strata.

Oh Behemoth? that was a hippopotamus according to the footnote in the NAB. The Leviathan? A crocodile as used in Job 40:25.
 
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three-sixteen:
The Bible says that “in Adam all die,” and that “death came with the first sin.” Praise be to GOD and to the VIRGIN!!!

There you have it, Phil, the answer! “It is impossible for GOD to lie,” writes SAINT PAUL. Therefore the Church REQUIRES us to believe that Adam and Eve were real people and were the FIRST humans. We may NOT believe they were a group of people–no they were the FIRST TWO PEOPLE. And the Bible says that there was NO DEATH before Adam and Eve. How simple can it be, Phil? PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Thus there can be no millions and billions of years of natural selection and extinction—Phil it is IMPOSSIBLE, for “God cannot lie.”

Sorry Phil, unless you want to huck your Bible out the window, you may not believe that there was death before Adam.
The death that Paul speaks of is spiritual death–eternal separation from God. Nowhere does Paul say that physical death was a result of Adam’s sin. In fact, if such death did refer to physical death as you say, then God would be a liar because He told Adam that if he ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, he would surely die. He did not drop dead upon eating the fruit. But he did die spiritually and was separated from God. Not only that, but there existed the possibility that Adam and Eve could have physically lived forever in their fallen state, had they subsequently eaten from the Tree of Life. The reason the couple were banished from the garden after the Fall was to prevent them from becoming immortal in that state. God placed cheribum to stand guard so they could not re-enter and eat of the Tree of Life.

No, the death that Paul refers to is spiritual death, not physical. But you’re right about one thing: God doesn’t lie. 🙂
 
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Ianjo99:
It’s fairly impressive to me that EVERY being known as dinosaur has since died, that their bones fossilized, they group by similarity in the strata

Yes, except that birds are dinosaurs that have survived the K-T event.

Alec
 
ianjo the behemoth in Job has “a tail like a cedar tree.” look at a picture of a hippo on the internet–it has a tail like a twig. the NAB commentators are not canonicly inspired but Job is.

petra the death that GOD promised to Adam–“you will surely die the death”–DID happen. Granted, not instantly except in the spiritual sense, but eventually—after 900 years in Adams case. One can see that Adam and Eve were meant to live FOREVER with GOD and there would have been no pain, no death, no toil. These were curses of sin. The TREE OF LIFE was no longer accessible to them. This proves the opposite of what you are trying to make out it of. They were no longer to live eternally, and were cursed to die someday—thus they were kicked out of the Garden Paradise where the Tree of Life, the Tree of Immortality existed.

Thus this “death” is BOTH spiritual and physical. One can see by the long life spans of the original fathers (often 900 plus years) that man was created to live forever. Man’s PHYSICAL life-span was shortened more each time man turned away from God and sinned. After the wicked days of the flood, God shortened the life span again to 120 years. READ IT! For the fist 1600 years or so of man’s existence—the time up to the FLOOD there was no killing or death of animals. Men were vegetarians. READ IT! Only AFTER the FLOOD was man commanded to eat animals, because for the first time there was enmity between man and animals, who had lived peacefully up to that time. Thus man’s sin led up to not only his personal death (spiritually and physically) but also the physical death of animals after the FLOOD.
 
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three-sixteen:
ianjo the behemoth in Job has “a tail like a cedar tree.” look at a picture of a hippo on the internet–it has a tail like a twig. the NAB commentators are not canonicly inspired but Job is.

petra the death that GOD promised to Adam “you will surely die the death” DID happen. Granted, not instantly except in the spiritual sense, but eventually—after 900 years in Adams case. One can see that Adam and Eve were meant to live FOREVER with GOD and there would have been no pain, no death, no toil. These were cursesof sin. The TREE OF LIFE was no longer accessible to them. This proves the opposite of what you are trying to make out it of. They were no longer to live eternally, and were cursed to die someday—thus they were kicked out of the Garden Paradise where the Tree of Life, the Tree of Immortality existed.

Thus this “death” is BOTH spiritual and physical. One can see by the long life spans of the original fathers (often 900 plus years) that man was created to live forever. Man’s PHYSICAL life-span was shortened more each time man turned away from God and sinned. After the wicked days of the flood, God shortened the life span again to 120 years. READ IT! For the fist 1600 years or so of man’s existence—the time up to the FLOOD there was no killing or death of animals. Men were vegetarians. READ IT! Only AFTER the FLOOD was man commanded to eat animals, because for the first time there was enmity between man and animals, who had lived peacefully up to that time. Thus man’s sin led up to not only his personal death (spiritually and physically) but also the physical death of animals after the FLOOD.
Hmm, you’re interpretation or people who study the bible for a living. Wow, tough choice :rolleyes:
 
316 << We may NOT believe they were a group of people–no they were the FIRST TWO PEOPLE. And the Bible says that there was NO DEATH before Adam and Eve. How simple can it be, Phil? PRAISE THE LORD!!! >>

Yes, we’ve talked about those theological objections before. I am tired of dealing with them, but maybe one more time. They have nothing to do with the science however.

Adam/Eve can be real and historical, they would be the first true human beings with souls. The others died off. A kind of theological monogenism but biological polygenism.

As for no death before the Fall of Adam/Eve, that would be no true human death before the Fall, or spiritual death. Romans 5:12 doesn’t mention animals, and God seems to have made the meat-crushing carnivores as carnivores (“the lion roars for their prey and seeks their food from God” Psalm 104:21).

Speaking of T-Rex, do you mean this creature ate brussel sprouts before the Fall?

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/TRex2.jpg

I’ll put it this way. There is no scientific question about the fact that millions of things died before the rise of homo sapiens. How you deal with that theologically is a separate issue from both the science and how one interprets Genesis.

A couple more articles dealing with the biblical issues:

Animal Death Before the Fall
Death Before the Fall: The Theology
No Death Before the Fall: A Young-Earth Heresy

I do not interpret Genesis as literal as you, and John Paul II and Benedict XVI seem to agree with me about the harmony of Catholic faith and evolution. Maybe you ought to pay attention to what they write on the subject.

You didn’t deal with your scientific mistakes yet. The “moon dust” argument and the “no transitional fossils” argument are not good arguments. They are false. I hope you know that now.

What’s with this Groundhog stuff? I find it amusing 😃 but I don’t get it. BTW, Mike Behe’s Groundhog Analogy was answered by Robert Pennock in Tower of Babel. Nice try, that won’t work either. 👍

Phil P
 
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