T - Total Depravity: The First Point of Calvinism

[Albina]

=Afterburned6387;2513506]The Catholic Church holds that
“Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.” (CCC 1714)

Calvinists, like myself, hold that man is completely sinful. The word we use is “Depraved.” This belief is that there is nothing good about a natural person (in the divine sense), that there is nothing they can do to honor god, nor anything they can do towards their own salvation. In short, they stand condemned and there is nothing they can do about it

The scripture we use to support our position is:

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks god” (Romans 3:10-11)

“you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature” (Col. 2:13)

“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” (Isaiah 64:6)

I Agree
I’m a Calvinist

 

[Church_Militant]

I Disagree
I’m a Catholic…there is nothing new to add to this debate.

 

[Teflon93]

I Disagree
I’m a Catholic…there is nothing new to add to this debate.

And there’s no sense in debating since we’re obviously predestined to belong to the Church Christ founded—thank God!

 

[Contarini]

Actually, to be logical about all of this, the TULIP should actually be addressed in this order:

U
L
T
I
P

The primary starting point, then, is the total sovereignty of God, as expressed in unconditional election doctrine.

Not necessarily, Ahimsa. In an “infralapsarian” understanding of Calvinism–probably the most common perspective historically–predestination is seen as logically the response to human sinfulness. Obviously God predestines everything before the Fall actually happens, but God’s choice to save certain people is logically subsequent to His foreknowledge that human beings will choose to become sinful. You are attributing a “high” philosophical predestinarianism to Calvinism, and that perspective is to be found in the Calvinist tradition. But it is far from universal.

Edwin

 

[mgrfin]

=Afterburned6387;2513506]The Catholic Church holds that
“Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.” (CCC 1714)

[/QUOTE]

 

[Anthony02]

The Catholic Church holds that
“Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.” (CCC 1714)

Calvinists, like myself, hold that man is completely sinful. The word we use is “Depraved.” This belief is that there is nothing good about a natural person (in the divine sense), that there is nothing they can do to honor god, nor anything they can do towards their own salvation. In short, they stand condemned and there is nothing they can do about it

The scripture we use to support our position is:

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks god” (Romans 3:10-11)

“you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature” (Col. 2:13)

“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” (Isaiah 64:6)

“Remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.”(Ephesians 2:12)

“the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.” (Romans 8:7)

"If God places no trust in his holy ones,
if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,

how much less man, who is vile and corrupt,
who drinks up evil like water! " (Job 15:15-16)

“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
(1 Cor 2:14)

and on and on and on, I could list at least another 10, but you get the point.

I do not know how the Catholics support their idea of a “wounded” nature, opposed to “depraved,” so I am looking for someone to try and prove the point.

I wish to limit this discussion just to the nature of man before salvation, not how someone is saved, not Apostolic Succession, or Sola Scriptura, or anything else. Specifically, I wish to address the nature of man in his natural state. Scripture seems emphatically to state that man can do nothing to save himself, but that every step along the way is a miracle of God.

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Romans 8:29-30

PLEASE do not discuss election, atonement, resistibility of grace, or perseverance, each of these will have its own thread in the following days, I intend to work all the way through TULIP, but for those unfamiliar with the five points, or who wish to gear up for coming debates, the points are:

T - Total Depravity
U - Undeserved Election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistible Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

Please keep your answers based in scripture, even if you feel the need to dabble in tradition BASED in scripture, and please stay on topic.

So what you are saying is there is nothing we can do to ever reconcile ourselves to God. That sounds a bit depressing if you ask me. We are fallen, but not all hope is lost. Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. He gave us hope for eternal life. If there was no hope for eternal salvation and there was nothing we could do to earn salvation, what’s the point.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Catholic Church holds that
“Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.” (CCC 1714)

Calvinists, like myself, hold that man is completely sinful. The word we use is “Depraved.” This belief is that there is nothing good about a natural person (in the divine sense), that there is nothing they can do to honor god, nor anything they can do towards their own salvation. In short, they stand condemned and there is nothing they can do about it

How complete is “completely” ?​

ISTM that the Fall grievously affected all faculties & “parts” of man, body & soul - but that it has not affected what man is & has to the full extent of what man is & has. The difference is that between blotting an entire consignment of 100 sheets of paper so that all are in part blotted, & blotting all 100 sheets entirely.

There is sin in our best works, but not so that they are nothing but sin - to pray in the Spirit is an activity vitiated by sin, but it is a prayer even so, & not a blasphemy. The sinner has been really justified - God has really accepted the sinner for & because of & in & through His Son, & imparted His Spirit to Him; he is not still at enmity with God.

I don’t think the parts of TULIP are inseparable - they are dynamically related, each to & in all. If what they say is true, that is to be expected.

The scripture we use to support our position is:…

[snipped for lack of space ]

…and on and on and on, I could list at least another 10, but you get the point.

I do not know how the Catholics support their idea of a “wounded” nature, opposed to “depraved,” so I am looking for someone to try and prove the point.

FWIW, the CC most definitely believes in original sin ​

I think the difference between us may be that between seeing man, as wounded or as dead. The doctrine of Total Depravity is not in all forms incompatible with Catholic dogma, though some forms of it would be.

I wish to limit this discussion just to the nature of man before salvation, not how someone is saved, not Apostolic Succession, or Sola Scriptura, or anything else. Specifically, I wish to address the nature of man in his natural state. Scripture seems emphatically to state that man can do nothing to save himself, but that every step along the way is a miracle of God.

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Romans 8:29-30

PLEASE do not discuss election, atonement, resistibility of grace, or perseverance, each of these will have its own thread in the following days, I intend to work all the way through TULIP, but for those unfamiliar with the five points, or who wish to gear up for coming debates, the points are:

T - Total Depravity
U - Undeserved Election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistible Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

Please keep your answers based in scripture, even if you feel the need to dabble in tradition BASED in scripture, and please stay on topic.

So why are you quoting the “golden chain” , if we must avoid talking about election ?​

I think this is a better summary of the Five Points:

• Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
  calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

• the sense of P might be clearer were it called Preservation of the Saints: that keeps the emphasis on God & His Work, rather than on us