T - Total Depravity: The First Point of Calvinism

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The below is from the link that someone else posted to an article by Jimmy Aiken at Catholic Answers on TULIP
Total depravity

**Despite its name, the doctrine of total depravity does not mean men are always and only sinful. **Calvinists do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be. They claim our free will has been injured by original sin to the point that, unless God gives us special grace, we cannot free ourselves from sin and choose to serve God in love. We might choose to serve him out of fear, but not out of unselfish love.[There is nothing wrong with serving out of godly fear. The Bible often uses fear of divine chastisement as a motivator. Love and a certain kind of fear do not exclude each other; a child may both love his parents and have a healthy fear of his parents’ discipline. But service based on fear only, being self-interested, does not please God in a supernatural way and does not receive a supernatural reward. Love is necessary to please God and receive rewards].

What would a Catholic think of this teaching? While he would not use the term “total depravity” to describe the doctrine,[That term is badly misleading, as even Calvinists acknowledge. For example, Calvinist theologian R.C. Sproul proposes the alternative term “radical corruption,” although this is not much better. Author Lorraine Boettner uses the much better term “total inability.”] he would actually agree with it. **The accepted Catholic teaching is that, because of the fall of Adam, man cannot do anything out of supernatural love unless God gives him special grace to do so.**In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma Ludwig Ott gives the following as a defined article of faith: “For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary” (Ott, 229). He goes on to cite the second Council of Orange, which stated that “as often as we do good God operates in us and with us, so that we may operate” (canon 9) and that **“man does no good except that which God brings about” (canon 20). **The Council of Trent solemnly condemned the proposition that “without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be repentant as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him” (Decree on Justification, canon 3). The Church teaches God’s grace is necessary to enable man to be lifted out of sin, display genuine supernatural virtues, and please God].

Thomas Aquinas declared that special grace is necessary for man to do any supernaturally good act, to love God, to fulfill God’s commandments, to gain eternal life, to prepare for salvation, to rise from sin, to avoid sin, and to persevere.[Summa Theologiae (hereafter ST) I:II:109:2-10].
Sounds to me that you guys accept the T in TULIP. Maybe you are all Calvinists but don’t know it yet :D**
 
Afterburned6387 said:
The Catholic Church holds that
“Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.” (CCC 1714)
Calvinists, like myself, hold that man is completely sinful.
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Im sorry but this is vague. For example, are you saying that each individual man is “equally” sinful? That would be an implication of saying that man is “completely” sinful. For example, the “natural man” who, in exercising free will, chooses to not murder remains “completely” and equally as sinful as the murderer who is identical to him in all other respects?
Does this completely sinful concept apply to infants as well?
afterburned:
The word we use is “Depraved.” This belief is that there is nothing good about a natural person (in the divine sense), that there is nothing they can do to honor god, nor anything they can do towards their own salvation. In short, they stand condemned and there is nothing they can do about it.
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This is not the same as your first paragraph of “completely sinful”. This sounds more Catholic. I would only disagree with the last statement - it needs the caveat that "they stand condemned and there is nothing they can do about it without God’s help.
afterburned:
I do not know how the Catholics support their idea of a “wounded” nature, opposed to “depraved,” so I am looking for someone to try and prove the point.
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A wounded nature and the inability to naturally achieve eternal life (depraved) are not contradictory. Our nature is wounded, it is not completely disfunctional - some of us could be worse!
afterburned:
Scripture seems emphatically to state that man can do nothing to save himself, but that every step along the way is a miracle of God.
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This is harmonious with Catholic teaching, so you will get no disagreement here.
afterburned:
“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Romans 8:29-30
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I understand those who God “foreknew” to be the Israelites (See Romans 11) " I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite…God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew"
Im sure you have a different intepretation of that verse, of course.
Even if you do, it is clear that the Israelites are among the “foreknown” of God. Do you believe all the Israelites achieved glorification? If not, your Romans 8 verses will not say very much with respect to individuals in Gods plan of salvation.
In addition, being predestined to something does not mean it actually occurs. We will be wading into deep, ambiguous waters which have not been able to be crossed through “Scripture alone” for over 500 years. If you really want to read a great thread where articulate Calvinists and Catholics debated this topic, go to “The Golden Chain of Salvation” thread. Ultimately, of course, there was no resolution by Scripture alone.
afterburned:
Please keep your answers based in scripture, even if you feel the need to dabble in tradition BASED in scripture, and please stay on topic.
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I think it would be a stretch to believe that Scripture alone is somehow going to resolve this substantially when it has been incapable of doing so since its inception.
 
The theories of irresistible grace, limited election, and total depravity are so contrary to what the Scriptures reveal about the character of God that I simply don’t understand how anyone would believe in them! Don’t get me wrong, though: I don’t mean to be rude. Here’s why.
  1. Limited election means that God calls only some to enjoy salvation and eternal blessedness, others he condemns infallibly to Hell without even a chance to be saved: Their whole existence is bent towards their horrid eternal fate–destruction–about which they can do nothing. Does God only love the Elect? Or does he merely favor them over the depraved wretches that he damns (and has been planning to damn since before Time itself) for all eternity to Hell? In essence, this doctrine undermines the universal, all penetrating Love of God.
  2. Total depravity teaches that we are incapable of pleasing or seeking God without him intervening and so allowing; we are, then, innately robbed of our free will because of the sins of our First Parents. While harboring a tendency towards sin, an inclination towards the flesh, we certainly aren’t without a free will, as this would totally undermine the justice of God. We become sinful robots, addicts of the flesh from birth, and we can’t even choose to seek or follow God! We don’t have any say or choice in the matter whatsoever. Some, apparently, are born wretched and without hope, and therefore die wretched and without hope, because God has not pre-elected them to Blessedness, but rather, these are the individuals he sees fit only for the blazing Fires.
  3. Irresistible grace entertains this line of thought by declaring: We are born sinful robots, but for those chosen, there is but ONE option: To accept. We are coerced into accepting God’s “offer” of salvation because he so dictates, leaving us without any choice in the matter once again. What we have here isn’t a genuine relationship: It’s a divine dictatorship! Does your definition of Love include forcing the second party to reciprocate the feeling? By the grace of God, we are given a choice in these matters: We may decline his offer to salvation, sad though it is. He’s a gentleman offering us his hand in marriage. We, the shocked bride-to-be, have the chance to accept the ring and spend eternity with him, or turn him down …
“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. ***If ***anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me.”–Rev. 3:20
 
The_Truthinator said:
  1. Total depravity teaches that we are incapable of pleasing or seeking God without him intervening and so allowing; we are, then, innately robbed of our free will because of the sins of our First Parents. While harboring a tendency towards sin, an inclination towards the flesh, we certainly aren’t without a free will, as this would totally undermine the justice of God. We become sinful robots, addicts of the flesh from birth, and we can’t even choose to seek or follow God! We don’t have any say or choice in the matter whatsoever. Some, apparently, are born wretched and without hope, and therefore die wretched and without hope, because God has not pre-elected them to Blessedness, but rather, these are the individuals he sees fit only for the blazing Fires.
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The council of Trent in it’s canons on Justification clearly spell out that you can not seek God without his grace (intervening).

What do you make of the Following from Trent?
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Trent:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification **must proceed from the predisposing grace of God **through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.

Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.

CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION

Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.
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Faith is a gift. It is a gift which is universally possessed, what’s more, even if not all make use of it. God so intervenes in the lives of *all *mankind, not merely the elect. To believe is as much a human act as it is supernatural. We choose whether or not to believe something; we cannot be forced to believe in anything. We may be indoctrinated, lied to, etc., but never forced, as faith is a “free act” in and of itself, as the Catechism says.

“To be human, ‘man’s response to God by faith must be free, and . . . therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act.’ ‘God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced . . .’ (CCC 160)
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
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It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that **they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to *convert themselves ***to their own justification by *freely assenting to and cooperating with *that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.
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Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
***Turn ye to me, ***and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.
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CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION
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Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] **they are *moved freely ***toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, **by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.
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The_Truthinator said:
Faith is a gift. It is a gift which is universally possessed, what’s more, even if not all make use of it. God so intervenes in the lives of *all *mankind, not merely the elect. To believe is as much a human act as it is supernatural. We choose whether or not to believe something; we cannot be forced to believe in anything. We may be indoctrinated, lied to, etc., but never forced, as faith is a “free act” in and of itself, as the Catechism says.

“To be human, ‘man’s response to God by faith must be free, and . . . therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act.’ ‘God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced . . .’ (CCC 160)
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You are very precocious for a 13 year old.

God Bless,
Michael
 
There’s a big difference between people not having an inclination towards doing God’s will after the fall because of lack of Sanctifying grace

and total depravity.

The totally depraved can only be Covered with Jesus’ righteousness over their souls of dung.

they Can’t be transformed by jesus unto perfect holiness.

Catholic believe that we are wounded by origninal Sin.

They don’t believe that we’re permanently injured by it.

Original sin = Lack of sanctifying grace

It never has meant total depravity!
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Catholic believe that we are wounded by origninal Sin.

They don’t believe that we’re permanently injured by it.
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If you are only wounded and not permanently injured by original sin, is there a point in your life here on earth that you are completely free from the effects of original sin?
 
I think this talk about us being “wounded” is too vague to be of much use. I think also that we’re all agreed that we can make no movement towards God without His grace. And I think where the difference between Catholicism and Calvinism lies, is whether or not that response involves a free choice on our part, or whether God’s grace precludes that free choice.
 
VociMike said:
I think this talk about us being “wounded” is too vague to be of much use. I think also that we’re all agreed that we can make no movement towards God without His grace. And I think where the difference between Catholicism and Calvinism lies, is whether or not that response involves a free choice on our part, or whether God’s grace precludes that free choice.
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Hear, hear!

God Bless,
Michael
 
As much as I love Jimmy Akin and his apologetics, I fear his work on the TULIP from a Thomistic perspective is a bit misleading. He’s even said that he wrote it at a time shortly after his conversion from Calvinism, while seeking ways to fit his old beliefs into the Catholic framework. As just one example he says that:
The accepted Catholic teaching is that, because of the fall of Adam, man cannot do anything out of supernatural love unless God gives him special grace to do so.
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This is actually incorrect. Even BEFORE the Fall man could not do anything out of supernatural love without special aid from God. Why? Because it’s supernatural. God must share His Divine Life with us for us to Live supernaturally; there is absolutely nothing in us that allows us naturally that allows us to love supernaturally. Even Adam required Grace to love God supernaturally. This makes no reference to natural good and natural love, though it’s easy to be mislead by this work into thinking that we don’t possess a natural love for God that goes beyond self-preservation.

Furthermore, the Council of Trent is using Justification as a supernatural reality, so of course it requires Grace. That is why it always adds reference to Justification when speaking of the goodness of human acts.

Peace and God bless!
 
Calvinator said:
If you are only wounded and not permanently injured by original sin, is there a point in your life here on earth that you are completely free from the effects of original sin?
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No. We:

(1) Have lost the gift of original justice, and now must seek justice by developing a virtuous life with God’s gracious help.

(2) Now possess an innate tendency toward wrongdoing, which we can only overcome by God’s gracious help.

(3) Must appropriate and grow in God’s gracious gift of salvation—so gracious that this process can begin even while we are babies.

However, the Fall is not viewed by Catholics “ontologically,” as a corruption of all the natural goods of humanity, such as reason, free will, and so on.

Here’s an example: Is my left hand evil? No. Is my body evil? No. Is my rationality evil? No—because of the ontological goodness of Creation.

Is it very easy for me to use my left hand, the rest of my body, and my rationality for evil purposes? Am I constantly tempted to do so? Must I rely on God’s grace to help me resist temptation? Yes, yes, and yes—because of the Fall.
 
P.S. This is not just a Catholic position, either. Many Protestants also hold it.
 
P.P.S. And Orthodox, too—they do not view the Fall as “ontological” in nature, but as “mortal” in nature. To get an accurate description of this view, we’d have to ask someone Orthodox.
 
Afterburned6387 said:
The Catholic Church holds that
“Man, having been wounded in his nature by original sin, is subject to error and inclined to evil in exercising his freedom.” (CCC 1714)

Calvinists, like myself, hold that man is completely sinful. The word we use is “Depraved.” This belief is that there is nothing good about a natural person (in the divine sense), that there is nothing they can do to honor god, nor anything they can do towards their own salvation. In short, they stand condemned and there is nothing they can do about it

Romans 2,14-16:

“For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law,they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written on their hearts,while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thought accuse or even defend them on the day when,according to my gospel,God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.”

Obviously, Paul did not think that human nature is entirely depraved. He acknowledges that there are Gentiles who by nature do what the law requires.
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Ghosty said:
As much as I love Jimmy Akin and his apologetics, I fear his work on the TULIP from a Thomistic perspective is a bit misleading. He’s even said that he wrote it at a time shortly after his conversion from Calvinism, while seeking ways to fit his old beliefs into the Catholic framework. As just one example he says that:

This is actually incorrect. Even BEFORE the Fall man could not do anything out of supernatural love without special aid from God. Why? Because it’s supernatural. God must share His Divine Life with us for us to Live supernaturally; there is absolutely nothing in us that allows us naturally that allows us to love supernaturally. Even Adam required Grace to love God supernaturally. This makes no reference to natural good and natural love, though it’s easy to be mislead by this work into thinking that we don’t possess a natural love for God that goes beyond self-preservation.

Furthermore, the Council of Trent is using Justification as a supernatural reality, so of course it requires Grace. That is why it always adds reference to Justification when speaking of the goodness of human acts.

Peace and God bless!
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I think that’s a minor point and in no way makes James Akin’s article misleading. What he said regarding predestination is in keeping with standard Catholic theology. The Catholic Church teaches predestination.

God Bless,
Michael
 
I think Akin’s article is more in concert with the Thomistic view of predestination than the Molinistic view of predestination.

If I’m wrong about that I would welcome someone educating me.
 
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