Tabernacle Light

[theriversidegan]

I attend mass at a church which does not have a Tabernacle Lamp. I know in the Roman Rituals it is explicitly stated such a light is necessary. Does that still hold true even though it was written before Vatican II was concluded?
Secondly…
At Mass, the Deacon takes the initiative to pray over the wine as he pours the water into the wine. Is that allowed? It seems like it should be something the priest should do. Please let me know on both of these issues as I am going to bring them up with my priest, but only if I actually need to to correct something.
Thanks!
Peter Crowe

 

[Toni]

theriversidegan:

I attend mass at a church which does not have a Tabernacle Lamp. I know in the Roman Rituals it is explicitly stated such a light is necessary. Does that still hold true even though it was written before Vatican II was concluded?

I hav only seen this once and that is in a parish that does not leave Jesus in the tabernacle because the priest says he will not serve leftovers to his guests. I know you can not imagine this but unfortunately it is try. If Christ is present in the tabernacle the sanctuary light must be lit.
Secondly…

theriversidegan:

At Mass, the Deacon takes the initiative to pray over the wine as he pours the water into the wine. Is that allowed? It seems like it should be something the priest should do. Please let me know on both of these issues as I am going to bring them up with my priest, but only if I actually need to to correct something.
Thanks!
Peter Crowe

I have never seen a deacon do this but I am pretty sure it is not allowed. But I am sure you will hear from a deacon out in CA.

 

[G_S]

The deacon is to say the words, “through the mystery of this water and wine…” while pouring the wine and water. The Sacramentary specifically states this.

 

[puzzleannie]

it is also preferable that the communion received by the faithful is consecrated at that Mass, and this priest may interpret this strictly, so that the tabernacle is indeed empty when Mass begins. the way he chose to describe it is troublesome, but there is a justification for the practice. Also in some churches the tabernacle is not in the sanctuary, but in another chapel, so that the lamp is burning there instead.

 

[decn2b]

The Sanctuary lamp is the Churchs way of letting the faithful know that Jesus is present in the tabernacle.

If there is no jesus present then there is no sanctuary lamp.

Sorta like when the announcer says " LADIES AND GENTELMEN…ELVIS IS IN THE BUILDING"

 

[QUICUMQUE_VULT]

Are Electric ones allowed? I have seen them in 2 Churches, IMHO its like taking away a symbol,and replacing it with A symbol of A symbol.

 

[gelsbern]

Electric ones are allowed at the discretion of the Bishop, and usually in very specific circumstances, such as hospital/nursing home chapels where people might be on oxygen which can’t be around open flames.

 

[Brain]

Ive seen tabernacles that contain only the adoration lunette and a few pyx. and i have seen tabernacles that are filled to capacity with stacking ciboria. but i have never seen a church that keeps the tabernacle intentionally empty…

TANGENT ALERT
i remember once my priest went on vacation and the substitute priest lost the tabernacle key… it was embarassing for him becuase he is an older man, but we were all impressed at his behavior when he discovered it. he put the cirborium on the altar, covered it with another corporeal and appointed 2 ushers to make sure no one even came near the altar until he got back (he went over to the rectory and hunted for the key, i thunk he found it too)

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Brain:

Ive seen tabernacles that contain only the adoration lunette and a few pyx. and i have seen tabernacles that are filled to capacity with stacking ciboria. but i have never seen a church that keeps the tabernacle intentionally empty…

TANGENT ALERT
i remember once my priest went on vacation and the substitute priest lost the tabernacle key… it was embarassing for him becuase he is an older man, but we were all impressed at his behavior when he discovered it. he put the cirborium on the altar, covered it with another corporeal and appointed 2 ushers to make sure no one even came near the altar until he got back (he went over to the rectory and hunted for the key, i thunk he found it too)

It may be more common because a person must be resident at the parish in order for the Blessed Sacrament to be reserved in the tabernacle. Today it is not umcomon to have a visiting priest only on Saturday evening or Sunday morning and at other times the church is locked up with no one there.

 

[muledog]

theriversidegan:

I attend mass at a church which does not have a Tabernacle Lamp. I know in the Roman Rituals it is explicitly stated such a light is necessary. Does that still hold true even though it was written before Vatican II was concluded?

The current Code of Canon Law, promulgated in 1983, states the following:
can. 940:

A special lamp which indicates and honors the presence of Christ is to shine continuously before a tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved.

The General Instruction for the Roman Missal states in paragraph 316 that
GIRM:

In accordance with traditional custom, near the tabernacle a special lamp, fueled by oil or wax, should be kept alight to indicate and honor the presence of Christ.

The footnote to this paragraph lists several references for this requirement, including Eucharisticum mysterium, 25 May 1967, no. 57, and The Roman Ritual, Holy Communion and Worship of the Eucharist outside Mass, editio typica, 1973, no. 11.

The following statement from the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (BCL) was issued regarding the material used for the Sanctuary Lamp:
BCL:

In a 1974 interpretation of the previous GIRM 269, the Congregation for Divine Worship noted that the GIRM “makes no further determination regarding the material” of which candles are made “except in the case of the sanctuary lamp, the fuel for which must be oil or wax."

 

[AltarMan]

gelsbern:

Electric ones are allowed at the discretion of the Bishop, and usually in very specific circumstances, such as hospital/nursing home chapels where people might be on oxygen which can’t be around open flames.

On yeah? Where is that documented by the Church?

GIRM 316. In accordance with traditional custom, near the tabernacle a special lamp, fueled by oil or wax, should be kept alight to indicate and honor the presence of Christ.

I don’t believe the Church allows electric lights (a “special lamp, fueled by oil or wax” need not be an “open flame.”)

So please, let us know where a local ordinary has the authority to approve the use of something that contravenes the GIRM. Thanks.

 

[AltarMan]

Toni:

I hav only seen this once and that is in a parish that does not leave Jesus in the tabernacle because the priest says he will not serve leftovers to his guests. I know you can not imagine this but unfortunately it is try. If Christ is present in the tabernacle the sanctuary light must be lit.
Secondly…
I have never seen a deacon do this but I am pretty sure it is not allowed. But I am sure you will hear from a deacon out in CA.

1.) That priest should be talked to by his bishop. Jesus Christ is NEVER a “leftover!” That is one of the crudest statements I have ever seen on these forums. It also shows a deeply flawed understanding of the Eucharist.

2.) Just what does said priest do when he gets a call to administer viaticum to someone on the brink of passing?

 

[cameron_lansing]

theriversidegan:

At Mass, the Deacon takes the initiative to pray over the wine as he pours the water into the wine. Is that allowed? It seems like it should be something the priest should do. Please let me know on both of these issues as I am going to bring them up with my priest, but only if I actually need to to correct something.

Peter,

The deacon has an prayer during the pouring in the Roman Missal as G&S had correctly posted, of course. I’ll just give the citation for your convenience

See the GIRM, 178. “After the Prayer of the Faithful, while the priest remains at the chair, the deacon prepares the altar, assisted by the acolyte, but it is the deacon’s place to take care of the sacred vessels himself. He also assists the priest in receiving the people’s gifts. Next, he hands the priest the paten with the bread to be consecrated, pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water), and after this presents the chalice to the priest.”

If there is no deacon, then of course, the priest does this. But if the deacon is present, this is a ministerial rather than a sacerdotal function so the deacon does it.

I leave it to your initiative to look up the full prayer.

 

[gelsbern]

AltarMan:

On yeah? Where is that documented by the Church?

GIRM 316. In accordance with traditional custom, near the tabernacle a special lamp, fueled by oil or wax, should be kept alight to indicate and honor the presence of Christ.

I don’t believe the Church allows electric lights (a “special lamp, fueled by oil or wax” need not be an “open flame.”)

So please, let us know where a local ordinary has the authority to approve the use of something that contravenes the GIRM. Thanks.

I think you got that from the old GIRM, the new one GIRM 93 says SHOULD be made of a material it doesn’t say must,

even GIRM 93 says should.

§ 93 § Candles for liturgical use should be made of a material that provides “a living flame without being smoky or noxious.” To safeguard “authenticity and the full symbolism of light,” electric lights as a substitute for candles are not permitted.119

A bishop can give a dispensation to use an electric light in the circumstances I stated above. Next time you are in a hospital with a catholic chapel that has a tabernacle, check it out. I would be willing to bet that it is electric as open flames of any kind are prohibited in hospitals due to patients who are on oxygen. It’s the same thing in the nursing home I visit.

I suggest you read a bit about dispensations

newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm

 

[gelsbern]

AltarMan:

On yeah? Where is that documented by the Church?

GIRM 316. In accordance with traditional custom, near the tabernacle a special lamp, fueled by oil or wax, should be kept alight to indicate and honor the presence of Christ.

I don’t believe the Church allows electric lights (a “special lamp, fueled by oil or wax” need not be an “open flame.”)

So please, let us know where a local ordinary has the authority to approve the use of something that contravenes the GIRM. Thanks.

Check your local hospital that has a catholic chapel some time. Most times open flames of any kind are prohibited due to patients being on oxygen, and open flames don’t mix. It would be quite a site to see a priest stomping out a flaming patient.

In any case, a bishop can give a dispensation for this as well as for other things, but it is of course on a case by case basis.

Have a look at what dispensation is all about.
newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

gelsbern:

Check your local hospital that has a catholic chapel some time. Most times open flames of any kind are prohibited due to patients being on oxygen, and open flames don’t mix. It would be quite a site to see a priest stomping out a flaming patient.

In any case, a bishop can give a dispensation for this as well as for other things, but it is of course on a case by case basis.

Have a look at what dispensation is all about.
newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm

Many people think that if a patient on oxygen comes near an open flame they will somehow blow up. Actually Oxygen won’t blow up. In high concentrations like in a small room it will cause a burning object to burn hotter and faster. So in the case of a candle in a patients room the amount of oxygen expelled into the room is small and it’s effect would be for the candle to burn brighter and faster. In a large area like a chapel the oxygen expelled into the air is disbursed and would have little or no effect on an open flame.

 

[AltarMan]

gelsbern:

Check your local hospital that has a catholic chapel some time. Most times open flames of any kind are prohibited due to patients being on oxygen, and open flames don’t mix. It would be quite a site to see a priest stomping out a flaming patient.

In any case, a bishop can give a dispensation for this as well as for other things, but it is of course on a case by case basis.

Have a look at what dispensation is all about.
newadvent.org/cathen/05041a.htm

1.) It need not be an open flame.

2.) Where does it say a bishop can give said dispensation? I don’t want to look at the dated Catholic Encyclopedia. I want to look at a Church document.

3.) Just because it’s being done dosen’t mean the Church approves of it.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Br. Rich SFO:

Many people think that if a patient on oxygen comes near an open flame they will somehow blow up. Actually Oxygen won’t blow up. In high concentrations like in a small room it will cause a burning object to burn hotter and faster. So in the case of a candle in a patients room the amount of oxygen expelled into the room is small and it’s effect would be for the candle to burn brighter and faster. In a large area like a chapel the oxygen expelled into the air is disbursed and would have little or no effect on an open flame.

The Policy and Procedure of the hospital, due to insurance liability, would most likely prevent the open flame. It’s easier for them to protect themselves that way from liability, as they wouldn’t be able to control all circumstances that could lead to potential lawsuits.

In all the hospitals I have been in, there are only non-denominational chapels, but we don’t have any Catholic hospitals where I work. So I have never seen the Tabernacle in a hospital chapel.

 

[AltarMan]

paramedicgirl:

The Policy and Procedure of the hospital, due to insurance liability, **would most likely prevent the open flame. **It’s easier for them to protect themselves that way from liability, as they wouldn’t be able to control all circumstances that could lead to potential lawsuits.

In all the hospitals I have been in, there are only non-denominational chapels, but we don’t have any Catholic hospitals where I work. So I have never seen the Tabernacle in a hospital chapel.

Nope, that’s not true – not in a chapel for religious reasons. Around here it actually takes a permit from the fire marshall, but it’s certainly doable.

No hospital is “able to control all circumstances that could lead to potential lawsuits” – eternal flame or not.

And again, it need not be an open flame.