S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Supporting Shari’ah, and enforcing it are two different things. I still don’t think you’ve grasped the point of this thread.
- Status
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Shari’a allows you to follow the law of your religion, if you aren’t a Muslim. Didn’t you know that?
E
empurpledsoul
Guest
Sura (9:29) - “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Suras 9 and 5 are the last “revelations” that Muhammad handed down.
Sura (9:5) “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them…” Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat.
Sura (9:11) - (Continued from above) “But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion” This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.
Sura (2:193) - “And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.” The key phrase is to fight until “religion be only for Allah.”
From the Hadith:
Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah…” This is the Shahada, or profession of faith in Islam.
Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - “When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians…], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them … If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them”
Bukhari (8:387) - “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’ And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.’”
Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, “Let us go to the Jews” We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, “If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle.”
Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah’s Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people **until they testify **that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Bukhari (59:643) - “Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!” Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition to destroy the local religion in Yemen.
There is much much more in Muslim texts, so one has to ask how we are supposed to respect the inability of Muslims to ignore this and make claims like:
Muhammad did not force people to join Islam.
It is a form of pathology right?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Muhammad did not force people to embrace Islam. He didn’t.
He fought, but not to force people into Islam. He fought because he was being fought, and he fought because God commanded him to fight, not something less than other prophets of God. He fought because he was in charge of protecting his people.
He fought, but not to force people into Islam. He fought because he was being fought, and he fought because God commanded him to fight, not something less than other prophets of God. He fought because he was in charge of protecting his people.
E
empurpledsoul
Guest
Originally Posted by Sister Amy
Spreading Islam by teaching it. Preaching it. Living it.
Not forcing it.
We know that Sister Amy is formerly a Christian. She is mixing the Way of Jesus, how a Christian ‘spreads’ their religion according to the teachings of Christ with her version of Islam, and claiming authority against Islam’s own Quran and Hadith in doing so.
Muslim were ordered to ‘fight’ with their hands, not with their hearts.
009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
PICKTHAL: Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
SHAKIR: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
And the Quran has a handy sura in case your conscience gets in the way and you don’t like to fight (harm) other people:
[216] Fighting is prescribed upon you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
And finally there is this:
[217] They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
Do you get that one? Being under tumult and oppression are worst than slaughtering fellow human beings. So if a Muslim feels oppressed or feels their religion is not respected or their civil rights are being infringed, they do not engage in a peaceful manner to resolve this, they are told that killing those who give them a challenge is better than being challenged, oppressed, etc, murder is preferred and Allah wants them to just wipe out humans who make their way difficult. And then there is an extra warning, that if that oppression or tumult (argument, disagreement, challenge, etc) of them leads THEM to leave their faith then they might as well know their lives will be fully cursed here and in the hereafter and they will basically burn in hell.
No compulsion or force eh?
None of this is in the Gospel of Jesus and Sister Amy has been living under its cloak of peace not even realizing it. She brings her pacifist view to a religion that insists on violence in the face of ‘oppression’ or threats, which of course goes square against what Jesus did and said in the face of oppression, threats and the ultimate loss of his life. She mixes Jesus beautiful truth, which is still planted in her heart, with Islam hoping to make it more beautiful, but these texts haunt, they deny her version, they can not be rewritten or redone or removed, and she has no power over what was done through Muhammad that is written in stone and believed by tens of millions of people worldwide as the right version.
Spreading Islam by teaching it. Preaching it. Living it.
Not forcing it.
We know that Sister Amy is formerly a Christian. She is mixing the Way of Jesus, how a Christian ‘spreads’ their religion according to the teachings of Christ with her version of Islam, and claiming authority against Islam’s own Quran and Hadith in doing so.
Muslim were ordered to ‘fight’ with their hands, not with their hearts.
009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
PICKTHAL: Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
SHAKIR: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
And the Quran has a handy sura in case your conscience gets in the way and you don’t like to fight (harm) other people:
[216] Fighting is prescribed upon you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
And finally there is this:
[217] They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
Do you get that one? Being under tumult and oppression are worst than slaughtering fellow human beings. So if a Muslim feels oppressed or feels their religion is not respected or their civil rights are being infringed, they do not engage in a peaceful manner to resolve this, they are told that killing those who give them a challenge is better than being challenged, oppressed, etc, murder is preferred and Allah wants them to just wipe out humans who make their way difficult. And then there is an extra warning, that if that oppression or tumult (argument, disagreement, challenge, etc) of them leads THEM to leave their faith then they might as well know their lives will be fully cursed here and in the hereafter and they will basically burn in hell.
No compulsion or force eh?
None of this is in the Gospel of Jesus and Sister Amy has been living under its cloak of peace not even realizing it. She brings her pacifist view to a religion that insists on violence in the face of ‘oppression’ or threats, which of course goes square against what Jesus did and said in the face of oppression, threats and the ultimate loss of his life. She mixes Jesus beautiful truth, which is still planted in her heart, with Islam hoping to make it more beautiful, but these texts haunt, they deny her version, they can not be rewritten or redone or removed, and she has no power over what was done through Muhammad that is written in stone and believed by tens of millions of people worldwide as the right version.
E
empurpledsoul
Guest
Keep telling yourself that, because you really do need to believe it.
History tells another story completely.
He was being ‘fought’ only by not being fully accepted by those he told his version of religion to, he was fought with words, and killed those who spoke words against him, he codified violent response to insults, which is not true ‘self defense’ due to violent threat.
But you keep repeating that lie you have because you really really need to believe it in spite of the truth that the rest of us can see.
And remember, the one who came before him was fought and taught a different command from God, so why would the same God change his mind on something so great a principle? Jesus taught those who live by the sword die by the sword and not just in the flesh. By laying down his life in the face of the same ‘oppression’ that Muhammad couldn’t bear he revealed Gods true face, Gods true will, it is love, forgiveness and non-violence. Period.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I’m a pacifist? I think not. I believe in all the verses of the Qur’an, including the ones you quoted, but also the ones you didn’t quote.
Like this one:
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
And this one:
60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Like this one:
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
And this one:
60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Did you not know than an army came to face him, and his followers, intending to crush them once and for all? Three times, an army came. Jesus was not charged with protecting his followers–he was not a ruler. Muhammad was.
E
empurpledsoul
Guest
Jesus was the Word of God. His very actions were what we were given and they were supported fully by his teachings. He was indeed a ruler in the way that a true messenger with Gods message in their heart, soul and will would be. This is what you don’t get!
Muhammad started right off by antagonizing the religion of his tribes, and never let up. His psychological viewpoint is well captured in Islam and I can see very clearly that he was pathologically obsessed with using violence to prove his religion mighty and victorious over everything else. He was insulted, and driven away, chastized and threatened, before he fled to Medina. Big deal. What prophet wasn’t? Stage was set, lets see what he does IN RESPONSE. Oh, well we know how the story ended, on his death bed cursing people after having broken every element of the truth given by Jesus, whom he also attacked in a passive way by denying the gospels written, denying his purpose and mission and so easily denying his authority and word as absolute, undoing them and replacing them with his version which is in complete opposition.
Thou shalt not murder became thou shalt not murder “except”…!!! Except when you are threatened enough and angry enough and insulted enough.
Islamic imperialism has gone on from day one, this religion became a scourge on the earth, because of its claim that Allah wants people to fight.
I don’t care how many threats were on his life, we already had Jesus Word and his beautiful example of Gods truth before Muhammad came along. So what if other prophets used war, they were before Jesus, Jesus revealed a much more glorious way, a higher truth, one that would truly bring peace to the world if they would plant that seed in their hearts and live it. And NOTHING in it speaks of war, not because he was ‘not a ruler’ but because war is not GODS WAY, it is mens way.
Islam makes human evil holy and that is what makes Islam evil.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Jesus was a prophet, a messenger, the Messiah. But while alive, he was not a king, nor a president, nor a governor, nor a ruler in any classical sense of the word. He did not rule the people. He taught them. And his teachings are beautiful, and wonderful, because they are from God.
Then why did he not use violence for 13 years, if he was “pathologically obsessed” with it?
Nawfal told him he would be. Even Jesus said that no prophet is accepted in his home town.
Not sure I recall him cursing anyone on his death bed. Nor ever opposing Jesus.
Thou shalt not murder is in the Bible. There is no exceptions to prohibition of murder, but sometimes killing is necessary, even in the Bible. But as the Qur’an says, oppression is worse than slaughter.
Jesus will return. Do you believe that?
E
empurpledsoul
Guest
First lie in Islam, denying his actual purpose and mission. He was not here to make human laws 'holy, he was here to show holy laws to humanity. Human rulers are ruling with human understanding,ego, powerlust, desire and drive for domination and power over human things.
His teachings rule our soul and by virtue of this our souls would come to a new way of treating one another. Obviously Muhammad didn’t get the jist of his teachings. He did what evil others did before him, but just claimed an angel speaking for God told hiim to do it and claimed holy status that way. But his way was not holy and so he should not be followed or emulated. Jesus is to be emulated and by that as humans our way of ruling would drastically change. As Muhammad did what had been done for eons, and as you claimed in another thread, was just the way it was in Arabia, as evil and disgusting as that may be, he did not bring God, he reinforced human ego and war and harm to other humans.
Hard to get a pathological denier of actual history and the Quran’s own command to fight (with hands) to see this. Muhammad did use violence, this is how he got ‘slaves his right hand possessed’ as did his Muslim thugs. He did what men had always done, just put Allah in there claiming, its not me, its him. I don’t see God in him, I see him and it isn’t pretty.
You are supporting my point that his so called persecution was not unusual, it is part of many prophets and even non prophetic ‘rulers’ in history to be opposed. The question is, what is the HOLY response to such opposition? Jesus revealed what the HOLY response was which stands in beautiful contrast to the common destructive and sinful human response, violence.
Killing is not murder, because we also kill animals for our food. Murder is human upon human, taking of human life. It is specific for that reason. It is only in Islam that there is the word ‘except’ added and the excuse of ‘oppression’ (insult, challenge, suffering, etc), and it teaches that it is better to take a sacred human life, as a human (murder) than to be oppressed. This goes directly against Jesus teaching again, as he taught that we were to meet our oppression and enemies with long suffering, tolerance and not violence, we are not to strike back, we are not to use the sword to defend ourselves, we are not to perpetuate hate for those who trouble us, we are to love even our enemies, and how can one murder that which they LOVE?
Oppression is worse than SLAUGHTER??? And your morality compass doesn’t go haywire reading that equation??? What happened to you?
I believe Jesus never left, He continues to walk with His believers to this very day, I am one of them. If you are referring to end times, I most certainly don’t agree with the Islamic version that says he will return “A Muslim” and will destroy all the crosses and curse all the Christians and accuse them of offending him!
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Did you not even read what I said?
I’ll ask you again. If Muhammad was “pathologically obsessed with violence,” then why did he not use violence for the 13 years he was in Mecca? NOT ONCE in 13 years. Why? Explain that.
I am supporting what Jesus said about prophets being rejected. If you agree with that, then you agree with me.
Not really.
Right.
Murder is killing a human, without just cause. The death penalty, which is prescribed in the Bible, is killing. But it’s not murder.
This is not true. The exception is in Judaism also. It is in Christianity. It is in modern law, even. If a woman is about to be raped, and she finds a weapon, tries to defend herself, and in so doing kills her attacker. Is it murder? Should she have tried to defend herself? Or should she have let herself be raped?
Why did Jesus say he did not come to bring peace, but to bring a sword?
If you disagree with it, I wonder what happened to you. Refer to my question about rape.
Do you disbelieve in Mark 16:19? After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
I have a personal question for you. If we were to walk into an auditorium and continue this discussion on stage, how would you treat me? I get the impression from your posting that you’d be kind of angry and yelling. But if I’m your enemy, shouldn’t you love me? Can you tell me how you would demonstrate your love for me if we were talking in a public forum?
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Islamic history shows that this assertion is not entirely true. Not all Mohammad’s wars were of self-defence. Some were obviously of offence and conquer.
As have been pointed out, most conquered enemies were converted to Islam because they could not stand the humiliation and the unfavorable conditions imposed on them as non-Muslims of other religions. That’s definitely not level playing field and to me if I am converted to Muslims under this condition you can say that it’s not from my own happy freewill.
R
ralphinal
Guest
If my religion requires wine, will Shari’a law allow us to have it?
If my religion allows me to eat pork, can I buy it?
If my religion has no codified legal system, what do we do?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I think the answers to the first questions are “yes.” As to the third, I don’t know. Perhaps one should be instituted in accordance with your scriptures.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Can you give me an example of a group of people who converted to Islam after being conquered because, as you said “they could not stand the humiliation and the unfavorable conditions imposed on them as non-Muslims of other religions.” An example of such a people?
R
ralphinal
Guest
So, is pork and alcohol radily available in all Muslim countries that have non-Muslims present?
And what if my scriptures do not require a theocracy?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
To the first question: it is not lawful in Islam for Muslims to be involved in any part of the process of distributing alcohol, from creating it to drinking it. They aren’t allowed to carry it, buy it, sell it, transport it, etc. Might be the same with pork. So if you can find non-Muslims to make your wine, transport your wine, and sell your wine, managing every step in the process, it shouldn’t be a problem.
The religions which are allowed to fully operate in a Muslim society are those which have scriptures revealed by God. I didn’t mention the word theocracy at all. But if God reveals a scripture, is it not incumbent upon the people to follow it?
M
Muslim_Woman
Guest
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
related link:Non-Muslims in Muslim Countries
Religious Rights Explored
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1239888242990&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
In Bangladesh , pork & alcohol are available in some restaurants where specially tourists , foreigners come . Muslims must not be involved in such businesses , but sadly some of them do
Not sure about the question . Here Christians have their separate laws for marriage & other matters .
related link:Non-Muslims in Muslim Countries
Religious Rights Explored
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1239888242990&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout
R
ralphinal
Guest
So, according to you (whom I trust in this), the Catholic wine made by monks and basically distributed to Churches is not an issue.
Ok, but Christianity does not have a code of Law as does Judaism or Islam. Would we be forced to follow Islamic law or the Jewish law in the OT?
And, if the legal code is part of the faith, it is a theocracy. It is rule by a faith system.
- Status