Tackling Predestination

[Bengoshi]

Catholics believe that the reward of heaven is being with God. We don’t believe in this concept of more or less heavenly rewards (or brownie points as you describe them).

I agree. God is the reward of heaven. Without God being there, it wouldn’t be heaven at all. I thought the RCC believed in the different rewards in heaven. This is taught in the Bible. i.e. being least in the Kingdom of heaven, many rooms in Jesus’ Father’s house, etc.

You see, in Catholic Soteriology, you need to die in the state of grace to go to heaven. You get in the state of grace by being baptized and you stay in the state of grace by avoiding sin and by loving god and neighbor. Through the mercy of God, If you fall from grace through sin, you can get back into the state of grace through the sacrament of reconciliation. If you die in the state of grace but still have a tendency to sin, you will be purified in purgatory. You see, this isn’t about accounting, its about becoming personally holy because nothing unclean will enter heaven.

I agree that to be saved, we need to die in a state of grace, and that grace has already been given freely by God and received bu faith.

My question for you is, how much good works do you need for you to be in a state of grace? How much is enough? What if you, a person who really loves God so much, commits a “mortal sin” and on your way to the confessional, you suddenly get hit by a car and die, do you go to hell? I mean, that can happen to anyone, right? And that’s scary! We won’t have any security at all.

Oh, and by the way, motivation is important. Devout Catholics are motivated by love and the have the desire to follow the lord into holiness. I worry that people that are taught that faith is all that matters will not be motivated to actually become holy and will fall short of their heavenly goal.

That’s “easy believism” you’re describing there. True Christians don’t think that way. True Christians have faith in Jesus and as a result love others as Jesus commanded us; and these are all products of God’s grace.

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus: Here are my thoughts on Romans 5:20…

The abounding grace of Romans 5:20 takes place in the lives of Christians when they are baptized. The grace abounds because the wages of sin is death. “For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation” (Romans 5:16). And yet, even though there were innumerable sins deserving a thousand deaths, “the free gift following many trespasses brought justification” (Romans 5:16). This “free gift” was made our own when we were “buried… with Him by baptism into death” (Romans 6:4) “For the death He died He died to sin” and the “one who has died has been justified from sin” (Romans 6:10, 7). Grace abounds because it overcame the sin that enslaved us and “reigned in death” (Romans 5:21; cf. Romans 6:20).

I would like to back up a bit to verse 6 “For Christ, while we were still helpless, yet died at the appointed time for the ungodly.”

If Christ died for the ungodly (which includes everyone) why would He then offer the grace that flows from His death and resurrection only to some.?

If Christ is the second Adam, and the first Adam caused the fall of all, it stands to reason that being the second Adam salvation will be offered to all. But it does not necessarily mean that every soul will cooperate with the grace that is being offered.

For those who have been baptized “have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God” (Romans 6:22).

Yes indeed. But grace is not limited to this one time giving of salvific grace.

The “free gift” of Romans 5:15 is the “free gift” of Romans 6:23, and it is made our own when we die to sin through faith by being “baptized into Christ Jesus” (Romans 6:3), the One Who died to sin for us so that we might live to God in Him.

Grace is not limited to the sacraments. While God has instituted these sacraments as avenues of grace, He is not limited by the sacraments and has worked and continues to work outside of the sacraments.

That anyone comes to knowledge of Him at all is purely grace. And this grace is bestowed even before the person is baptised to enable the person to be baptized, and thus avail more of the superabundance of grace that is present in all the sacraments.

 

[benedictus2]

You seem to hold that the grace of Romans 5:20 is working in the lives of all people as a drawing force. The way you seem to be thinking about it would imply that God’s drawing grace becomes greater and greater the more and more we reject His grace. Because the more we reject Christ, the more sin abounds. Therefore, the more grace must abound.

I answer this in 3 points.

First. If grace is only made available at baptism, then how do you account for the OT people such as the propherts, Moses, Isaiah, Jacob, etc, etc.

Second. Yes, the grace of Romans is working in the lives of all people as a drawing force. Otherwise, how do you account for the protestants who have died, never been baptized and yet believed in Jesus Christ.

Third. Yes, the more sin abounds the more grace abounds. It does not mean that there is more grace in the person, rather that God offers more grace to allow them to turn away from sin.

Here is how I think it goes.

A relatively “good” person who has chosen God most of his life will not need much help from God because the grace which has been offered before has caused a change in his soul such that his soul has become stronger at resisting evil. So therefore to resist further evil, even a small dollop of grace would be enough for him. Think of someone with a cold. He needs only those over the counter tablets.

Now contrast that with a “bad” man who has rejected God all his life. Through out this man’s life, God has given him graces but at most instance he has rejected it so that his soul is now in the state of being afflicted with the Ebola virus. Because God loves this man so, to enable him to say yes to Him, the grace has to be much greater than the graces that He has given this man before. Therefore he now needs intravenous feeding, massive doses of antibiotic or some such drug and hospital confinement.

We see this in testimonies of drug addicts, atheists, etc who have turned their way into the Lord. Those who have always followed the Lord do not recount blinding insights and profound turn arounds, rather we see them growing stronger every step of the way.

In both instances, these two has the opportunity to reject God.

The truest thing we can say about God is that God IS love. He is not merely a person who loves, but His nature IS love.

Any discussion on salvation, predestination, ecclesiology, (any Christian theology) must have that as the foundational argument from which all other arguments flow.

 

[benedictus2]

But this is the opposite of what we believe (cf. Romans 1:24, 26, 28). We believe that this type of empowering grace increases through cooperation with grace and by grace (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 6:1).

This does not contradict what you noted above at all.

As a matter of fact it brings it more forcefully home that we are showered grace upon grace.

Think of it this way. This is overly simplistic but suppose we quantify grace. When we were children He gives us 1grace. If we cooperate with that grace we become child+1, if we reject it, the state of our soul become child-1. The next time around to the child+1 God gives 1grace again so that his soul becomes stronger so that he is now child+2. But to the child-1 He gives 2grace as this is the grace that is needed to get him to be child+1.

God is the Hound of Heaven. St Augustine said the our hearts are restless until they rest on God. He made us we belong to Him and this restless he put in every person’s heart so that we will turn to Him.

God loves us SOOOOO passionately and we see that passion with which He loves all of His creation hung on the cross.

The grace that Paul has in view in Romans 5:20 is the grace of God available in Christ that He bestows in the lives of baptized believers; this grace does not abound for all people, but only for the many who will be made righteous (cf. Romans 5:19).

This is not correct. It is true that the grace He bestows on everyone (and I mean everyone, OT people included) is a result of Christ’s life, death and resurrection. However, in the same manner that it is given to the OT people (and to Mary mind you), it is also offered to the non-baptized because every grace in this space/time continuum that we are in is a result of Christ salvific sacrfice.

The Hindu mother who sacrifices her life for her child, is able to do that because of Christ though she may not know it.

The atheist who visits a sick friend and cares for the poor is only able to do that because of Christ’s sacrifice though he might not know it.

The robber who is about to shoot the helpless cashier, but is filled with remorse and so relents is able to do that because of the grace that came from Christ’s sacrifice even though he may not know it.

Every good thing (and even the bad things) on this earth is grace. And every grace comes from the Love that hung on the cross.

Again, it appears that, to Paul’s mind, the grace of Romans 5:20 is the grace won by Christ and that is received by us in baptism when, no matter how many sins we may have previously committed, all are forgiven. What makes this grace abounding is its effects of overcoming sin and death, and of making us slaves of righteousness “leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:21; cf. Romans 6:23). This grace is objectively sufficient to potentially abound for all, but only actually abounding in those who receive the grace of regeneration in baptism and who persevere in cooperating with that grace.

I refer back to my answer above.

If you can, get a hold of a book called “Why Does God permit evil by Dom Bruno Webb” I think this will clarify quite a few things for you.

 

[Pitcharan]

Are you seriously saying that the devil creates human beings? Is this really how you understand the parable of the wheat and the tares?

This has to be discussed in some detail; bear with me patiently and listen please:

1. If Satan were powerless and weak, then there would be no great struggle between Good and Evil.
2. If Satan can obtain God’s permission to torment Job or to sift Peter like wheat, can we rule out Satan getting permission to produce duplicates in his own image and likeness?
3. Who are the Anti Christs and who produces them?
4. If Judas is described as “son of perdition” and if it is said of him “it would have been better for him had he not been born at all”, what does it indicate? Who brought about Judas’ birth?
5. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE VERSES:

*I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and **thy seed **and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. *(Gen 3:15)

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. (John 10:26)

*They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not. You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: We have one Father, even God. Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.* (John 8:39-44)

1. NOW CONSIDER THE PARABLE OF THE WHEAT AND THE TARES

Does it not clearly suggest

• that children created by God in His own image and likeness are distinct and predestined for Glory.
• children of the Evil one are the reprobate and doomed to eternal suffering in hell.
• though the exact process of creation of devil’s children is not spelt out in the bible, this parable gives us an idea.
• Not even the angels are allowed to pre-judge who is who, but this will be known on the day of last judgement.

 

[Pitcharan]

The Devil never created anything. God created everything. The Devil plants the reprobate into the Church. That’s why there are those inside the Church that are not really saved, i.e. not true Christians.

The Bible does not spell out the exact process by which evil ones are created. However we know this:

• All what God creates is good
• Capabilites and powers of the Devil are not fully defined
• If Satan was weak and powerless, there will not be any great struggle between Good and Evil

 

[benedictus2]

This has to be discussed in some detail; bear with me patiently and listen please:

1. If Satan were powerless and weak, then there would be no great struggle between Good and Evil.
2. If Satan can obtain God’s permission to torment Job or to sift Peter like wheat, can we rule out Satan getting permission to produce duplicates in his own image and likeness?
3. Who are the Anti Christs and who produces them?
4. If Judas is described as “son of perdition” and if it is said of him “it would have been better for him had he not been born at all”, what does it indicate? Who brought about Judas’ birth?
5. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE VERSES:

*I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and **thy seed ***and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. (Gen 3:15)

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. (John 10:26)

*They answered, and said to him: Abraham is our father. Jesus saith to them: If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me, a man who have spoken the truth to you, which I have heard of God. This Abraham did not. You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: We have one Father, even God. Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word.

You are of your father the devil*, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. (John 8:39-44)

1. NOW CONSIDER THE PARABLE OF THE WHEAT AND THE TARES

Does it not clearly suggest

• that children created by God in His own image and likeness are distinct and predestined for Glory.
• children of the Evil one are the reprobate and doomed to eternal suffering in hell.
• though the exact process of creation of devil’s children is not spelt out in the bible, this parable gives us an idea.
• Not even the angels are allowed to pre-judge who is who, but this will be known on the day of last judgement.

I will give you a more detailed reply later this evening but I just want you to think again about my question because you have not answered that in this post.

Can the devil create human beings?

If you believe so, please cite Scriptural verses to support your claim.

 

[Bengoshi]

The Bible does not spell out the exact process by which evil ones are created. However we know this:

• All what God creates is good
• Capabilites and powers of the Devil are not fully defined
• If Satan was weak and powerless, there will not be any great struggle between Good and Evil

I think although Benedictus, Paul C, Pete Holter and I are discussing and debating about predestination, we would all agree, that Satan or the Devil, did not create anyone or anything.

God created all things. He created man and the angels good but they (Lucifer and Adam) rebelled against God. Thus, our natures were altered. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan created anything. As to the Devil being the father of the reprobate, he is their adoptive father in the same way that Christians are sdopted children of God. God’s being Creator and Father are two different things. Only Jesus is God’s begotten son.

 

[Pitcharan]

I think although Benedictus, Paul C, Pete Holter and I are discussing and debating about predestination, we would all agree, that Satan or the Devil, did not create anyone or anything.

God created all things. He created man and the angels good but they (Lucifer and Adam) rebelled against God. Thus, our natures were altered. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan created anything. As to the Devil being the father of the reprobate, he is their adoptive father in the same way that Christians are sdopted children of God. God’s being Creator and Father are two different things. Only Jesus is God’s begotten son.

I too understood and believed the way you have said. But this verse made me ponder:

*And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between **your offspring **and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." * (Gen 3:115)

I know that we are the woman’s (Eve’s) offspring and God’s adopted children. But who are the devil’s offspring?

This parable made me ponder even more.

His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. (Matt 13:36b-39)

Then I felt, if God can permit Satan to torment Job and sift Peter like wheat, how can we be sure if He will not permit Satan to produce duplicates in his (satan’s) own image and likeness? If not, who are the antichrists? Who creates them?

 

[Pitcharan]

I will give you a more detailed reply later this evening but I just want you to think again about my question because you have not answered that in this post.

Can the devil create human beings?

If you believe so, please cite Scriptural verses to support your claim.

I was only loudly thinking if God could have ever created the reprobate and the antichrists.

And yes I did answer the above question in my post; here I repeat it:

• though the exact process of creation of devil’s children is not spelt out in the bible, this parable (of the wheat and the tares) gives us an idea.

 

[Bengoshi]

I too understood and believed the way you have said. But this verse made me ponder:

*And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between **your offspring ***and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (Gen 3:115)

I know that we are the woman’s (Eve’s) offspring and God’s adopted children. But who are the devil’s offspring?

This parable made me ponder even more.

His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. (Matt 13:36b-39)

Then I felt, if God can permit Satan to torment Job and sift Peter like wheat, how can we be sure if He will not permit Satan to produce duplicates in his (satan’s) own image and likeness? If not, who are the antichrists? Who creates them?

You seem to equate the serpent with Satan. The serpent is not Satan. It was just used by Satan. Look at nature, doesn’t the snake normally strike/bite a human at the heel? On the other hand, isn’t it so much easier for the human to stomp the snake’s head because it crawls on the ground?

No Christian believes that Satan created anything, much less a human for that matter. I suppose that you are an Indian, and it just so happens that at this very moment, I am reading Ravi Zacharias’ book, “Walking From East to West”. He is a very prolific philisopher, apologist and theologian. Try reading his works and get a better picture of the teachings of Christianity.

 

[Pitcharan]

…No Christian believes that Satan created anything, much less a human for that matter.

Neither do I. But we should not underestimate Satan’s capabilities. I think (not believe) that the human beings created by God in His own image and likeness can reproduce in three ways:

1. According to God’s specific will, eg., Isaac, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist. Such children are predestined for God’s glory.
2. By the ordinary way. Such children have to be born again (re-created) through the sacraments.
3. According to Satan’s manipulation of human beings (maybe thro’ sins like fornication). Such children are antichrists, reprobate and doomed for hell

I suppose that you are an Indian, and it just so happens that at this very moment, I am reading Ravi Zacharias’ book, “Walking From East to West”. He is a very prolific philisopher, apologist and theologian. Try reading his works and get a better picture of the teachings of Christianity.

Thank you for the suggestion. I’ll read this book surely.

 

[Bengoshi]

Neither do I. But we should not underestimate Satan’s capabilities. I think (not believe) that the human beings created by God in His own image and likeness can reproduce in three ways:

Good!

1. According to God’s specific will, eg., Isaac, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist. Such children are predestined for God’s glory.
2. By the ordinary way. Such children have to be born again (re-created) through the sacraments.
3. According to Satan’s manipulation of human beings (maybe thro’ sins like fornication). Such children are antichrists, reprobate and doomed for hell

As I’ve said before, God created everything good, even Lucifer himself was good. Lucifer and a third of the angels in heaven rebelled against God, non serviam, they said. Satan wanted to be God. Therefore, he was cast down from heaven like lightning bolt and Jesus beheld this. After some time, Lucifer, now Satan, used the serpent in the Garden to tempt Eve who was with Adam. As a result, they ate of the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They disobeyed God, thus, original sin resulted. Human nature (and the entire creation) became corrupt. This is known in theology as the noetic effects of sin. Man was no longer good. That is the reason God had to send Jesus Christ to die and become the propitiation for our sins. Now, those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior by putting their faith (trust) in Him(Gk. pisteuo en auton) are saved. However, we are only able to do that by the grace of God, which regenerates (born again) us in to a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). That’s why grace precedes faith. Even our faith comes from God for He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith.

So we can see from this concise biblical history how man came to have a sinful nature.

Thank you for the suggestion. I’ll read this book surely.

You can also watch his talks on You Tube or Google. Another one of his famous books are “Jesus Among Other Gods”.

 

[benedictus2]

The bible says imputed strongs 3049
Word Origin
from logos (in the sense of an account or reckoning)
Definition
to reckon, to consider.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Rom 4:22-24And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Where did you find the definition for infused?

As far as our old nature, it is bound by sin unto the purposes of sin. It can never please God because it is His enemy. In any of its endeavors it is hopelessly lost.

His grace is sufficient. When we are born from above we posses His will and become adopted children. It is our old nature that rises against us trying to cause us sin. When we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (old nature).

This is not what the reformers mean when they say that righteousness is imputed. They mean that we are merely declared righteous but that we are not actually made righteous.

I will give you a link to this kind of discussion in the other thread that I am in.

 

[benedictus2]

You didn’t really answer my question first, did you? Everything we need to know

is in the Bible. “So that the man of God may be thoroughly eqipped for every good work.” (2 Tim. 3:17)

But that does not say that every single truth is found in the Bible. Further more, what I was giving was my exegesis so you cannot find the exegesis itself in the Bible.

So again, where in the Bible did it say that all truth must be found in the Bible? I think you hold to the Trinity but the doctrine of the Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Here it is again. Take note that St. Paul is writing to believers here:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

, that we should be holy and blameless before him. **In love **he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV) But we have never questioned that He has predestined the elect to salvation.

Pray tell however where in the above text can you find that God lovingly, and mercifully condemns the others to hell? This is the bone of contention in this discussion.

I think the word you or rather Sproul used was “sorrowfully passes over those who He will condemn”. Sorrowfully passes over when He has the capacity to not pass over? More like crocodile tears don’t you think.

Where, I ask, is that in the Bible?

 

[benedictus2]

You keep on saying that it doesn’t say that God damns people to Hell. It is implied. It follows.

No it isn’t implied. And no it doesn’t follow. So again, where in the Bible does it say that God damns people to hell.

There are people in Hell, right? So there you go, they are the reprobate.

They are not there because God damned them by deciding to withold His grace even from before their conception. Think about that, even before they were born the cards have already been stacked against them.

No, they are there because inspite of God offering them grace, they refused this grace and in the process damn themselves into hell. But even to the last moment God offers the grace of repentance. They are there becuase contrary to what you say, grace is not always irresistable. Yes it is alays sufficient but not always irresisitible.

Jesus only died for His elect. His atoning work is sufficient for all but only efficient for some.

Nope. nope. nope. The scripture that I have cited before said Christ died for all. It does not mean however that all will be saved. All it means is that everyone will be given a chance at salvation.

You tried to water it down by saying that the “all” meant there refer to the elect but sorry my friend, “all” means “all”. And these you see in different instances, not just Paul. You have Peter, you have John and I suggest you read this one too.
Matthew 25:32-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[benedictus2]

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,

That is a very good verse to quote. It would seem if we go along with Bengoshi’s interpretation that God is unable to do what He is asking us to do. So now god is even a hypocrite.

45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust

And another point on this verse which Bengoshi has cited himself.

This little god goes to all the trouble of causing the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, take time and patience to care for all but deep inside he is thinking “once they’re dead I am shoving them into the furnace to torture them” (while he twirls his moustache)

 

[benedictus2]

 St. Paul was writing to believers. He had believers in mind when he was saying this.

How can he have believers in mind when he says “where there is sin” without any qualifications. He did not say where believers sin, they will be given grace.

Furthermore, Paul writes not just to believers but to unbelievers so that they will become believers. And grace is necessary in the first instance to make them believers.

As in my response to Pete Holter I go back to the beginning of the chapter in verse 6 “For Christ, while we were still helpless, yet died at the appointed time for the ungodly.” This means all ungodly without any qualification.

The point you are trying to make contradicts your take on grace only you don’t even realize it.

You said that grace is given so that we will have faith and that through grace we can turn away from sin. If grace has already been given to believers to turn away from sin then how can this apply to believers?

Your position basically states (if you will really think about it) that believers no longer sin.

The secret things are God’s but those He revealed belong to us and our children forever (Deut. 29:29). There are things which God didn’t reveal to us. He cannot because if He reveals to us all His knowledge, we will not be able to contain it. He only revealed to us what we need to know.

But this answer does not come close to answering what you are trying to refute.

Please read point 2 again.

As I’ve said before, all of our righteous acts are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:4). Total depravity does not mean utter depravity but corruption. This is where God’s common grace comes in. He gives us enough grace so as not to completely destroy each other. “He makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust”.

Sorry but no matter how you slice it total and utter are the same thing. Total depravity means utter depravity. This making of distinctions where non exist is a habit with protestants. In the same way they made this distinction between justification and sanctification when for centuries, the Church Fathers never made any.

The “all” here pertains to the elect.

Nope. All men means all men no exception. Otherwise he would have said “the elect”. This is why I keep saying that when you do your exegesis you should do it in light of Scripture not some insy tinsy bits of it.

This passage only says that those who believe in him will have eternal life. It doesn’t say “how” they come to believe in him.

You missed that part about God so loved the world. Not some of the world or a bit of the world or the elect of the the world but the world in its entirety.

 

[benedictus2]

God has 2 wills, a secret will and a revealed will. It’s just like a parent who has a child who did something wrong. It is not the parent’s will to punish the child, but because he has to because the child did something wrong, then he does it.

 God has only one will.  Some of of the aspects of that will He has chosen to reveal.  God cannot have contradictory wills. You are making God to be suffering from MPD again as you have done before.

It’s just like a parent who has a child who did something wrong. It is not the parent’s will to punish the child, but because he has to because the child did something wrong, then he does it.

But that does not come even close to explaining your point that God has 2 wills. If it is not the parent’s will to punish the child, then why would the parent punish the child. Is someone holding a gun to the parent’s head?

Our actions proceed from our will. There may be a very reason for the parent to punish the child but the parent none the less wills to punish the child. It is a just willing but it is still His will.

So again, sorry but you failed to give a reasonable explanation of what these two wills are.

You fail to see it but your defense of Calvinistic predestination is so full of holes and all because you fail to account for the things I mentioned in my previous post.

God IS love. You need to start from there.

 

[benedictus2]

Romans 5:20 is for believers, the elect. Thatis why they have this grace. Otherwise they wouldn't.

No it isn’t. Otherwise he would have the said the elect. You are trying to read into the text something that the text is not saying all because you have a preconceived notion. There is a tendency in protestants to force certain texts into a reading contrary to its intent and this is because you came up with a theology and then tried to make the Bible support your theology.

Here’s a better definition of Reprobation by Wayne Grudem: Reprobation is the sovereign decision of God before creation to pass over some persons, in sorrow deciding not to save them, and to punish them for their sins, and thereby to manifest his justice.

If I were the dad, I would give my children the drink. The difference between me and God is that I may have a different purpose from God. So you are more loving than God? How can you be when God Himself IS love and whatever love you have for your children is a faint shadow of God’s love for us?

We do not have the same mind as God. So we do not know His purposes and "we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love Him

." Yes but that kind of reasoning applies only what happens here on earth. He allows some bad things to happen to us precisely to bring out a greater good and the greater good (the greatest good) is salvation – union with Him.

You need to think that through and realize that the two are not interchangeable.

The reprobate, however, do not love God.

That is true. But the way you are putting it is that the reason the reprobate do not love God is because God withheld the grace necessary for the reprobate to love Him. The elect are reprobates as well except that God decided to give them the grace to love Him.

Either way you look at it, you have an evil capricious god who damns people eeeny meeny miny mo.