Tackling Predestination

[Bengoshi]

Hi Benegoshi

I am not Questioning God. I am questioning people on this thread Just to see what there views are. I Know its a hard subject so i am Just looking at there different views.
Also i will question people on both sides of the debate. doubting is the prelude to truth
I do trust God that he has a perfectly Justified Reason for his purpose and Judgement.
I do believe God has pedestined some unto salvation before the creation of the World
There are plenty of scriptures to prove this.
What i was trying to understand. Are the rest who are Reprobate Pedestined before the Foundation of the world to damnation?
Because we have Got the ALL scriptures that Seem to Suggest. Every body while Alive
have a chance at Salvation.

The most widely used illustration is this:

Think of the gates of heaven. Let’s say, you are near it and there is a sign that says, “whosoever may come, come”. Then after you get inside and look back on the gate, the inside part of the gate says “to those who have been chosen before the foundation of the world”. So you see, you only found out that you were one of the elect when you entered the gate (Jesus); but definitely, there are those who would not enter the gate in spite of the inviting sign outside it. Those who did not enter, are in fact, the reprobates. It means they were not chosen before the foundation of the world. So as far as those outside the gate are concerned, everyone is free to enter the gate, all are invited. However, those who enter, later on find out that they only entered because they were chosen by God to enter. The grace and desire to enter in fact, came from God.

I hope this helps.

 

[Bengoshi]

This seems like a good opportunity to explain how the Catholic church really works. The Church teaches the doctrines that were passed down from the Apostles, nothing more, nothing less. That is why the Pope is infallible in areas of faith and morals - he doesn’t create new doctrine. Now to be fair, he does need to apply existing doctrine to new situations. For instance, artificial birth control was not available during apostolic times. when Pope Paul VI pronounced against the use of artificial birth control, he did so after prolonged prayer and study by a large group of bishops and he published the reasons that the ruling was an extension of existing doctrine.

As for the specific doctrine that God gives everone the opportunity to be saved, that is scriptural. After all, Jesus calls all men to himself. And to describe this practically, every one has a conscience to warn against evil and drive them toward good. That is God calling to every man to come to him, is it not?

as for Augustine: here is the support from the Catholic encyclopedia article on the teaching of Augustine:
But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to

This is a secondary source. It would be difficult for us to discern if this is what Augustine really meant if we would just rely on an annotation of his work.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi, I must object. You claim that election is done by God before the world was even created. But you can’t support this. There is no scriptural support for the concept that some people have no chance to be saved. There is scriptural support that some are destined for heaven. But none that say some are predestined to hell, which is a heresy…

Reprobation is supported by Scripture.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”
(Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)

Commentary:

Eph. 1:4 He chose us in him means that the Father chose Christians in the Son (Christ), and this took place in eternity past, before the foundation of the world. This indicates that for all eternity the Father has had the role of leading and directing among the persons of the Trinity, even though Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in deity and attributes. God’s initiative in redeeming the believer from sin and death was not an arbitrary or whimsical decision but something God had planned all along “in Christ.” Since God chose his people in his love, they can take no credit for their salvation. God was determined to have them as his own (see note on 2:8). holy. God chose them with the goal that they be holy and blameless before him. This goal is not optional for Christians—it is the purpose of election. Holiness here expresses moral purity, while blamelessness expresses freedom from the guilt of trespasses and sins in which the Christian formerly walked (1:7; 2:1, 5). In love, at the end of 1:4, properly belongs to v. 5, describing predestination, though the esv footnote indicates that “in love” can also be taken with the preceding phrase (“that we should be holy and blameless before him in love”).

Eph. 1:5 predestined. Previously ordained or appointed to some position. God’s election of Christians (v. 4) entails his predestining them to something—in this case to adoption as sons (see also v. 11; Rom. 8:29–30). Hence, election and predestination in this context refer to God’s decision to save someone. All Christians, male and female, are “sons” in the sense of being heirs who will inherit blessings from their Father in heaven. Paul qualifies and stresses God’s plan and initiation of redemption with the phrase according to the purpose of his will here and elsewhere in the passage (Eph. 1:9, 11). God cannot be constrained by any outside force, and his inexorable will for believers is to pour out his grace and goodness on them in Christ Jesus.

Eph. 1:6 God’s ultimate purpose is not redemption as such but the praise of his glorious name through redemption. This theme is repeated at key junctures in the argument (see vv. 12, 14).

On Romans 9:

**Rom. 9:14–15 **Since God chose Jacob instead of Esau before they were born, without regard to how good or bad either of them would be, the question naturally arises: Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

**Rom. 9:16 **Salvation, then, is not ultimately based on human free will or effort but depends entirely on God’s merciful will.

**Rom. 9:17 **For this very purpose. Paul quotes Ex. 9:16 to show that God is sovereign over evil as well. Even the wrath of man praises God (Ps. 76:10), for God installed Pharaoh as ruler and hardened his heart so that his own saving power and glorious name would be spread throughout the whole world.

**Rom. 9:19 **who can resist his will? If salvation ultimately depends upon God, and he has mercy and hardens whomever he pleases, then how can he find anyone guilty? How can he charge anyone with guilt since his will is irresistible?

**Rom. 9:20–21 **Some of Paul’s readers might expect him to appeal to human free will to resolve the problem posed in v. 19. Instead, he insists that finite human beings may not rebelliously question God’s ways, that God as a potter (cf. Jer. 18:1–6) has the right to do what he wishes with his creation. The honorable and dishonorable vessels in this context represent those who are saved and unsaved. Paul affirms that humans are guilty for their sin, and he offers no philosophical resolution as to how this fits with divine sovereignty. He does insist that God ordains all that happens (cf. Eph. 1:11), even though God himself does not sin and is not morally responsible for sin.

**Rom. 9:22–23 **God created a world in which both his wrath and his mercy would be displayed. Indeed, his mercy shines against the backdrop of his just wrath, showing thereby that the salvation of any person is due to the marvelous grace and love of God. If this is difficult to understand, it is because people mistakenly think God owes them salvation!

 

[Pitcharan]

…But none that say some are predestined to hell, which is a heresy…/QUOTE]

Can you explain these verses?
I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12b);

“… woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.” (Matt 26:24b-26)

But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." (Mk 14:21bc)

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!". He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him. (John 6:70-71)

 

[Pitcharan]

Bengoshi, I must object. You claim that election is done by God before the world was even created. But you can’t support this. There is no scriptural support for the concept that some people have no chance to be saved. There is scriptural support that some are destined for heaven. But none that say some are predestined to hell, which is a heresy…

I am convinced that the truth is different from either beliefs (catholic and protestant), but would like to share my inspired views only after theological approval and permission. As “food for thought” I quote the following.

Extracts from THE SINNER’S GUIDE by The venerable Louis of Granada.
Vidimus et Approbabimus:
Fr. C. H. McKenna, O.P.
Fr. J. L. O’Neil, O.P.
Revisores Deputati
New York
November 15,1883
Imprimi Potest:
Fr. M. D. Lilly, O.P.
Prior Provincial
Province of St. Joseph
November 15, 1883
**Imprimatur: **
+John J. Williams, D.D.
Archbishop of Boston
By his Vicar General
November 22, 1883

1. Taken from chapter 6
   The origin and the antiquity of this election also merit special consideration. It did not begin with this world; it preceded the existence of the universe; it was coeval with the very existence of God. From all eternity He loved His elect. They were ever present to Him, and His will to render them eternally happy was as fixed at His own Being.
2. Taken from chapter 10
   …we are all destined to one or the other – either to reign eternally with God in Heaven or to burn forever with the devils in Hell! This happiness and misery, either of which must inevitably be our portion, are represented by the two baskets of figs which Jeremias saw in the vision, one containing “very good figs, like the figs of the first season, and the other basket very bad figs, which could not be eaten.” (Jer. 24:1-2). God willed thus to represent to His prophet the two classes of souls, one of which forms the object of His mercy, and the other of His justice. The happiness of the first is unequaled, and the misery of the second is also incomparable; for the just enjoy the perpetual vision of God, which is the greatest of all blessings, while the wicked are forever deprived of this vision, and thereby suffer the greatest of all evils.

 

[Bengoshi]

I am convinced that the truth is different from either beliefs (catholic and protestant), but would like to share my inspired views only after theological approval and permission. As “food for thought” I quote the following.

Extracts from THE SINNER’S GUIDE by The venerable Louis of Granada.
Vidimus et Approbabimus:
Fr. C. H. McKenna, O.P.
Fr. J. L. O’Neil, O.P.
Revisores Deputati
New York
November 15,1883
Imprimi Potest:
Fr. M. D. Lilly, O.P.
Prior Provincial
Province of St. Joseph
November 15, 1883
**Imprimatur: **
+John J. Williams, D.D.
Archbishop of Boston
By his Vicar General
November 22, 1883

1. Taken from chapter 6
   The origin and the antiquity of this election also merit special consideration. It did not begin with this world; it preceded the existence of the universe; it was coeval with the very existence of God. From all eternity He loved His elect. They were ever present to Him, and His will to render them eternally happy was as fixed at His own Being.
2. Taken from chapter 10
   …we are all destined to one or the other – either to reign eternally with God in Heaven or to burn forever with the devils in Hell! This happiness and misery, either of which must inevitably be our portion, are represented by the two baskets of figs which Jeremias saw in the vision, one containing “very good figs, like the figs of the first season, and the other basket very bad figs, which could not be eaten.” (Jer. 24:1-2). God willed thus to represent to His prophet the two classes of souls, one of which forms the object of His mercy, and the other of His justice. The happiness of the first is unequaled, and the misery of the second is also incomparable; for the just enjoy the perpetual vision of God, which is the greatest of all blessings, while the wicked are forever deprived of this vision, and thereby suffer the greatest of all evils.

See! There really are Catholics who agree with the Reformed position!

 

[shaky]

Reprobation is supported by Scripture.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”
(Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)

Commentary:

Eph. 1:4 He chose us in him means that the Father chose Christians in the Son (Christ), and this took place in eternity past, before the foundation of the world. This indicates that for all eternity the Father has had the role of leading and directing among the persons of the Trinity, even though Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in deity and attributes. God’s initiative in redeeming the believer from sin and death was not an arbitrary or whimsical decision but something God had planned all along “in Christ.” Since God chose his people in his love, they can take no credit for their salvation. God was determined to have them as his own (see note on 2:8). holy. God chose them with the goal that they be holy and blameless before him. This goal is not optional for Christians—it is the purpose of election. Holiness here expresses moral purity, while blamelessness expresses freedom from the guilt of trespasses and sins in which the Christian formerly walked (1:7; 2:1, 5). In love, at the end of 1:4, properly belongs to v. 5, describing predestination, though the esv footnote indicates that “in love” can also be taken with the preceding phrase (“that we should be holy and blameless before him in love”).

Eph. 1:5 predestined. Previously ordained or appointed to some position. God’s election of Christians (v. 4) entails his predestining them to something—in this case to adoption as sons (see also v. 11; Rom. 8:29–30). Hence, election and predestination in this context refer to God’s decision to save someone. All Christians, male and female, are “sons” in the sense of being heirs who will inherit blessings from their Father in heaven. Paul qualifies and stresses God’s plan and initiation of redemption with the phrase according to the purpose of his will here and elsewhere in the passage (Eph. 1:9, 11). God cannot be constrained by any outside force, and his inexorable will for believers is to pour out his grace and goodness on them in Christ Jesus.

Eph. 1:6 God’s ultimate purpose is not redemption as such but the praise of his glorious name through redemption. This theme is repeated at key junctures in the argument (see vv. 12, 14).

On Romans 9:

**Rom. 9:14–15 **Since God chose Jacob instead of Esau before they were born, without regard to how good or bad either of them would be, the question naturally arises: Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

**Rom. 9:16 **Salvation, then, is not ultimately based on human free will or effort but depends entirely on God’s merciful will.

**Rom. 9:17 **For this very purpose. Paul quotes Ex. 9:16 to show that God is sovereign over evil as well. Even the wrath of man praises God (Ps. 76:10), for God installed Pharaoh as ruler and hardened his heart so that his own saving power and glorious name would be spread throughout the whole world.

**Rom. 9:19 **who can resist his will? If salvation ultimately depends upon God, and he has mercy and hardens whomever he pleases, then how can he find anyone guilty? How can he charge anyone with guilt since his will is irresistible?

**Rom. 9:20–21 **Some of Paul’s readers might expect him to appeal to human free will to resolve the problem posed in v. 19. Instead, he insists that finite human beings may not rebelliously question God’s ways, that God as a potter (cf. Jer. 18:1–6) has the right to do what he wishes with his creation. The honorable and dishonorable vessels in this context represent those who are saved and unsaved. Paul affirms that humans are guilty for their sin, and he offers no philosophical resolution as to how this fits with divine sovereignty. He does insist that God ordains all that happens (cf. Eph. 1:11), even though God himself does not sin and is not morally responsible for sin.

**Rom. 9:22–23 **God created a world in which both his wrath and his mercy would be displayed. Indeed, his mercy shines against the backdrop of his just wrath, showing thereby that the salvation of any person is due to the marvelous grace and love of God. If this is difficult to understand, it is because people mistakenly think God owes them salvation!

Hi benegoshi

Adam and Eve {had eternal Life} when they where created. They lost this later and death came to them by {there choice} in the fall,
We are in Opposite position we were created {without eternal Life} but not by {our Choice} This fall was passed unto us when we was Born.
OK i will accept being found Guilty by coming to the Knowledge that i am Sinner. But will not do nothing about it.
But if i want to do something about it and want to responed to the offer of salvation
Surely God Owes everybody a chance at salvation. because at least Adam and Eve had a chance at eternal Life.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi benegoshi

…Surely God Owes everybody a chance at salvation. because at least Adam and Eve had a chance at eternal Life.

God owes us nothing. In His infinite magnanimity He makes us the offer of salvation, which is an offer to share in His glorious and joyful kingdom. His offer is perfectly impartial by definition and to cast aspersion or doubt it or demand an explanation are all futile folly born of unqualified pride. To realise our inherent latent pride and shudder in fear of His judgments and then repenting by humbling self, is wisdom. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Pitcharan:

{1 peter 4:18} And, if the righteous scarcly be saved, where shall the ungodly and Sinner Appear.
This scripture seems to suggest even being a religious person and righteous, only a few of these persons will be saved.
These scriptures are saying you have to make sure of you salvation
{Philip 2:12} {2 peter 1:10} {heb 2:1}

I had a Jehovah witness telling me i was not Saved: because i would not believe what he was telling me: I told him I am makeing Sure by not being a heretic.

Either wait till I am able to publish my explanation or let the Holy Spirit teach you. Unless you sincerely seek truth with humility, you will receive nothing. Refrain from demanding explanation. Beware! Pride preceeds fall.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Pitcharan:

{1 peter 4:18} And, if the righteous scarcly be saved, where shall the ungodly and Sinner Appear.
This scripture seems to suggest even being a religious person and righteous, only a few of these persons will be saved.
Remember what our Lord said: the prostitutes and tax-collecters would enter His kingdom ahead of the phraisees and teachers of law.

These scriptures are saying you have to make sure of you salvation
{Philip 2:12} {2 peter 1:10} {heb 2:1}

 

[benedictus2]

Didn’t you read this caveat part?:

“Remember, saying this prayer or any other prayer will not save you. It is only trusting in Christ that can save you from sin. This prayer is simply a way to express to God your faith in Him and thank Him for providing for your salvation.”

And therefore COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY TO SALVATION.

There is nowhere in the Bible that says the sinners prayer is how one “gets saved”. Another doctrine and “tradition of men” among the many that came out of reformed theology.

 

[benedictus2]

But it still leaves the Question why Some Few people are Chosen by God. Forgiven and washed from there past Sins and also any Sins they happen to commit in the Future. Also Given the Grace=Power to Overcome Sins to become holy and Sanctified.

But to Many that have not been Chosen by God. Not Forgiven or washed from there sins Just Left in this Sinful nature not Given any Grace=power to overcome Sins.
Where is the Justification to Condemn these people.

Proverbs 16:14 The Lord has made all things for Himself: Yes, Even the wicked for the day of Evil.

If a person has been made wicked for the purpose of God and that person remains wicked
and was not given any Grace=power to become righteous. Surly if you was made wicked and left in this position.
would you feel it is Justified that you should be Condemned .

Hi Shaky,

I must say I like your post. It shows that you have really put them through some rigorous thought process.

As regards Proverbs 16:14 here is an explanation from the NAB
“ Even the wicked, in their punishment, cannot escape glorifying God’s justice.”.

When a verse is read in isolation, we start to read them wrong.

And this is what happened with the oft used proof text for predestination in Romans 9. If one reads the whole of chapter 9, then one can see how untenable that position is. It is the same thing with Proverbs 16.

If a verse stumps you sometimes, it is good to go the NAB site as the annotations at the bottom are quite helpful

usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml

 

[benedictus2]

The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind; the answer is blowing in the wind…

Nope. The answer is not blowing in the wind. Shaky actually apprehends the very real and rational objection to predestination, which some here seems to keep failing to get. Top marks to Shaky.

What has happened is when someone cannot have an answer to this kind of questioning they just answer “Oh one cannot question God” or “the answer is blowing in the wind”.

God has not predestined to damnation. No one could provide a good scriptural support for it. Support for predestination to salvation abound but not for reprobation.

No, the answer is not blowing in the wind. The answer is “Because God is not like that?”

How can one call it just if God punished someone for withholding the very grace that God demands of them to be saved? The answer is simply, it is not just and it is intellectually irresponsible to suppose so just because one cannot muster enough rational argument for one’s view.

Shaky is not questioning God, rather he is questioning the weakness of the proposition of predestination to damnation.

Like those friends of Job who put forth suppositions of the why’s, the view of predestination to damnation speaks ill of God and spurts lies about God.

That take about Adam blaming God for putting the woman there is exactly how I have always explained it in my talk on the Eucharist as liberation in Christ. It was not the height of pride. That came before. This is what we call blame shifting and is always our first to being found out in our sin. How are we going to blame someone else for it. There is something terribly evil about this because it actually lays the blame for the fall squarely at God’s feet.

I have often asked people, I wonder how it would have gone, had instead of blaming shifting and scape goating, Adam and Eve had acknowledged their sins and repented.

This is why acknowledgment of one’s sin (repentance) is the first step towards breaking its hold on us.

 

[benedictus2]

Pitcharan’s answer to your question is correct. We have no right to judge whether God’s actions are just or not. His glory is paramount. We just have to trust that His purposes are good for He is the standard of truth.

As I replied to Pitcharan, Shaky was not questioning God but questioning this depraved theology about God.

Shaky asked how can God be unjust? The answer is he isn’t. But considering what you have written about God, then it is entirely the fault of the proponents of reprobation if people were to think God unjust. You have painted Him that way.

Ergo, if God is indeed NOT unjust, then the only other conclusion one can arrive at is that, your comprehension and explanation of the nature of God and salvation, is the one that is completely up the creek.

 

[benedictus2]

Either wait till I am able to publish my explanation or let the Holy Spirit teach you. Unless you sincerely seek truth with humility, you will receive nothing. Refrain from demanding explanation. Beware! Pride preceeds fall.

Yes indeed. Pride goes before the fall and by this very statement you have just shown your predilection for it !!

"Either wait till I am able to publish my explanation or let the Holy Spirit teach you."

Such pride and arrogance as if your explanation will answer this once and for all l! You equate your manuscript in the same level as the guidance of the Holy Spirit ??? !!!**

If pride does go indeed before a fall, then I think you need to get some ice for that nasty bump from when you had that almighty crash !!

That advice you gave Shaky is much more appropriate for you.

And from what I have read of what he wrote, he does seek knowledge humbly (unlike some who are so puffed up with their esteem for their own writing they demand that others read what they wrote).

More than that, Shaky really exercises those grey cells. He does not just mouth something over and over again because someone else said so.

 

[Pitcharan]

Yes indeed. Pride goes before the fall and by this very statement you have just shown your predilection for it !!

"Either wait till I am able to publish my explanation or let the Holy Spirit teach you."

Such pride and arrogance as if your explanation will answer this once and for all l! You equate your manuscript in the same level as the guidance of the Holy Spirit ??? !!!**

If pride does go indeed before a fall, then I think you need to get some ice for that nasty bump from when you had that almighty crash !!

That advice you gave Shaky is much more appropriate for you.

And from what I have read of what he wrote, he does seek knowledge humbly (unlike some who are so puffed up with their esteem for their own writing they demand that others read what they wrote).

So you are up to your favorite dirty game of twisting my words to make me a villain in others’ eyes. I trust in God and it is He who will vindicate me. Don’t try to poisen others. Satan can never succeed!

 

[benedictus2]

What does it mean to be a born again Christian? The classic passage from the Bible that answers this question is John 3:1-21. The Lord Jesus Christ is talking to Nicodemus, a prominent Pharisee and member of the Sanhedrin (a ruler of the Jews). Nicodemus had come to Jesus at night. Nicodemus had questions to ask Jesus.

As Jesus talked with Nicodemus, He said, “’I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’ ‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:3-7).

The phrase “born again” literally means “born from above.” Nicodemus had a real need. He needed a change of his heart—a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18). John 1:12,13 indicates that “born again” also carries the idea “to become children of God” through trust in the name of Jesus Christ.

The question logically comes, “Why does a person need to be born again?” The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins…” (NKJV). To the Romans in Romans 3:23, the Apostle wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” So, a person needs to be born again in order to have their sins forgiven and have a relationship with God.

How does that come to be? Ephesians 2:8-9 states, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” When one is “saved,” he/she has been born again, spiritually renewed, and is now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be “born again” spiritually. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

If you have never trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, will you consider the prompting of the Holy Spirit as He speaks to your heart? You need to be born again. Will you pray the prayer of repentance and become a new creation in Christ today? “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God” (John 1:12-13).

If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and be born again, here is a sample prayer. Remember, saying this prayer or any other prayer will not save you. It is only trusting in Christ that can save you from sin. This prayer is simply a way to express to God your faith in Him and thank Him for providing for your salvation. “God, I know that I have sinned against you and am deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness—the gift of eternal life! Amen!”

Sorry Bengoshi but this is a long answer that does not even remotely address my question.

I asked : What does it mean to be “born again”? What is the nature of this new spiritual life?

To clarify, what happens to the person when one is born again? Is there a change in the status of the soul? Are your sins gone? Are you made clean? Are you a completely new person?

Following that is the question "What does it mean when you say one is a completely new person? ". To answer that you need to be able to explain the nature of the fall and the nature of grace.

 

[benedictus2]

So you are up to your favorite dirty game of twisting my words to make me a villain in others’ eyes. I trust in God and it is He who will vindicate me. Don’t try to poisen others. Satan can never succeed!

I am not twisting your words. They are out there for every one to see.

Ah yes, I suppose you think I am being guided by Satan for exposing your pride, the very pride which you had the audacity to lay on others.

Everyone who opposes Pitcharan is being guide by Satan

As I said, get some ice for the bump.

 

[Pitcharan]

I am not twisting your words. They are out there for every one to see.Of course it is twisting, because I merely gave Shaky a few tips for learning from the Holy Spirit and you quote a portion out of context. Your whole purpose was to drive a wedge between me and Shaky. Only Satan does such things.

Ah yes, I suppose you think I am being guided by Satan for exposing your pride, the very pride which you had the audacity to lay on others.

Are you desperately trying to drag me into unnecessary arguments when I am not even debating anything with you? You purposes can never succeed.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi benedictus.

Unless everybody already has been Given by God a measure of faith and Grace in them already to start with in the first place. And the are able with an element of free will to use this and Choose Salvation. And in doing so they are chosen and their faith and grace Increases to insure there salvation and these are the Ones that are Chosen.
And the Ones that don’t use this measure of faith and grace lose this faith and grace altogether and become hardened.

**Doubting is the prelude to truth. **You always have to use both doubt and belief to come to the truth.
Even a athiest should have an element of doubt in what he or she believes. That element of doubt would be faith to believe in. ‘‘Jesus Chirst’’

I** have a very strong faith in Jesus christ. But there is also a element of doubt.**

Amen to the highlighted text. Thomas doubted but he was the vehicle through whom the very first acknowledgment of Jesus as God and Lord is made. From out of this cloud of doubt came the Light.

As to the second highlighted text, Fr Mitch Pacwa put it this way - Christians are not negativist (everything is doom and gloom) nor are we positivists (everything is A okay and assured). Rather we are a people of hope, not surety but hope. Which accounts for the co-existence of the strong faith and the the element of doubt.