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paul_c
Guest
Why you deny that man has free will? You are exercising that free will in your dissent of Catholic doctrine, after all…
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Bengoshi
Guest
I never denied that man has free will. It’s just that “free will” has to be properly defined. Our exercise of our free will is limited by our nature, our sinful nature. Only God can free us from that nature and enable us to choose Him. He is the one who changes our nature by regenerating us so that we would now instead choose Him. He replaces our hearts from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
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paul_c
Guest
. I will not deny anything you say here. But I will also add that while God enables us to choose him, he does not force us to do so, and there in lies the free will. We always have the ability to align our will with God because God calls every one of us. We all have consciences that call to us to do his will and which condemn us when we are selfish or hateful. Further, if you partake of the sacraments, particularly the eucharist, God’s grace increases making you more able to live a life of holiness. We have a choice to do his will and we have a choice to partake in the sacraments. Nothing is forced upon us, because love must be freely given. If a gift can not be denied, it becomes not a gift but an act of coercion.
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Bengoshi
Guest
As I have said, God does not coerce or force us to accept Him. We choose Him willingly precisely because of His effectual grace. The reason why it is said that this grace cannot be resisted is only because anyone called by God will not even want to resist. So there is really no feeling of coercion on our part. From our perspective, it will always feel as if we are the ones who freely chose God; but from God’s perspective, it is He who actually caused us to accept Him.
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paul_c
Guest
As I said in my previous post, everyone is called by God. We all have consciences that bring us to him. So if your supposition is true, that anyone called by God will not want to resist, why does sin exist in this world?
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shaky
Guest
Hi bengoshi
I willingly put my faith in Christ: But at the time i still feel i was Coerced with the thought of hell if i rejected his call.
Also what about the fact that when you backslide God Chastises you with his love.
That to me is being Coerced.
So if i did not wish to do things there will be consequences
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paul_c
Guest
God motivates us in different ways to come to him but he does not force us to do so. Everyone has the opportunity to turn from God through sin and unfortunately, many do. The ones who will go to heaven will instead choose to do Gods will out of love. Both are exercising their free will.Hi bengoshi
I willingly put my faith in Christ: But at the time i still feel i was Coerced with the thought of hell if i rejected his call.
Also what about the fact that when you backslide God Chastises you with his love.
That to me is being Coerced.
So if i did not wish to do things there will be consequences
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Bengoshi
Guest
Because not everyone is called by God as you claim. God only calls the elect. That is why not all are saved. Only those who responded to the gospel call and persevere in the faith until the end are the elect. The existence of sin in the world is totally another matter altogether. Being a Christian doesn’t mean perfection and sinlessness. As long as we’re alive, God continuously sanctifies us (Phil. 1:6). This sanctifying grace is where our cooperation is needed but not when it comes to saving grace which is effectual. Regeneration is a monergistic act of God alone.
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Bengoshi
Guest
Well, it is not coercion in the sense that thgere is a struggle to not believe in Him. Unbelievers do not even believe in the existence of hell. Your belief (faith) in hell is also a work of God’s grace that leads you faith in Christ.Hi bengoshi
I willingly put my faith in Christ: But at the time i still feel i was Coerced with the thought of hell if i rejected his call.
Also what about the fact that when you backslide God Chastises you with his love.
That to me is being Coerced.
So if i did not wish to do things there will be consequences
Of course, it would still appear to be a threat from God but in the end you still had a choice to make. Either you put your trust in Jesus and go to heaven, or reject Christ and go to hell. It’s not as if you didn’t have a choice anymore. There are people who choose hell by the way.
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paul_c
Guest
Bengoshi, there seems to be some confusion in your post. The first two lines (which I highlighted in red are in conflict with the third line, which I highlighted in Green:
The Red lines are demonstrably incorrect. We know that all are called to God. We know this because it can be easily demonstrated that everyone has a conscience calling us to righteousness. We know it because God is just and loves us all and there is no justice in condemning some to hell arbitrarily. And we know it because scripture tells us that Jesus calls all men to himself. Are you denying any of this?
The Green line is correct. Those who responded to the Gospel call and perserve in the faith until the end will go to heaven. This is the Catholic position.
The Red lines are demonstrably incorrect. We know that all are called to God. We know this because it can be easily demonstrated that everyone has a conscience calling us to righteousness. We know it because God is just and loves us all and there is no justice in condemning some to hell arbitrarily. And we know it because scripture tells us that Jesus calls all men to himself. Are you denying any of this?
Again, you are confused. Being a Christian demands that we strive for perfection and sinlessness. This is out of love for God, who we do not want to offend by willfully turning away from him in sin. And yes, we are sanctified by God through the sacraments. And yes, we need to cooperate with this sanctification. Sanctification IS required for heaven because we know that nothing sinful will enter heaven. If you recognize that we need to cooperate in the sanctification process, then it should be apparent to you that we need to cooperate with God to get to heaven.
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paul_c
Guest
Bengoshi,
What will you do if you die and find yourself condemned. Will you dare to lash out at God for making you a reprobate? Or will you accept personal responsiblity for your failings?
What will you do if you die and find yourself condemned. Will you dare to lash out at God for making you a reprobate? Or will you accept personal responsiblity for your failings?
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shaky
Guest
Hi paul
I understand scripture tells us that salvation is Available for all men. but i dont understand that scripture tells us it calls all men. Even Jesus himself only says ‘‘MANY’’ are called.
Even being realistic looking at history not all men are called in there lifetime.
Millions have lived and died not knowing about Jesus or the Gospel.
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paul_c
Guest
All men are called to holiness and heaven, whether or not they know Jesus or the Gospel. This is what St. Paul wrote in Romans 2.Hi paul
I understand scripture tells us that salvation is Available for all men. but i dont understand that scripture tells us it calls all men. Even Jesus himself only says ‘‘MANY’’ are called.
Even being realistic looking at history not all men are called in there lifetime.
Millions have lived and died not knowing about Jesus or the Gospel.
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
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Joe1972
Guest
Predestination is the topic that brought me to this forum thread. And as I read through it, it is clear to me that this has been a huge stumbling block for thousands of years. Both for the ones trying to grasp it, and for the ones trying to clarify it. Most of the attempts over the years to clarify are extremely long and winding. (Well, you have to break it up into pre-destination for some, but not for the ones that are going downstairs…, etc.)
The problem is this: How can we reconcile the notion of “God is love,” with the notion that a great many of the souls God creates will spend an eternity in hell. Including possibly, ourselves. And to top it off, God is also omniscient. He knew this particular soul was headed for hell before he even created it. Am I being heretical just by saying this? I hope not.
Why spend so much time trying to force a square peg into a round hole? I know I’m going to get kicked for this, but… Show me in the bible where Jesus refutes reincarnation again? Because I’m finding more places where he seems to understand that it’s a reality, as opposed to places where he’s telling people it’s a mistake to believe in it. (“Whom do you say that I am?” “Some say Elijah…” etc.)
If you add reincarnation into the picture, and you accept that souls do not rot in hell forever and ever and there is no future left, but open up to the possiblity that no God who is Love would do that to any one of His creations, then doesn’t the concept of predestination make complete sense? Why only assign just a few “elect” souls to Jesus? Shouldn’t we all be assigned to him?? Think about the possibility that eventually “after every last debt has been paid” you just maybe are allowed out of that prison and given another chance? That there are laws in place to allow every soul to also learn from the mistakes and not just solely to punish eternally forever for them? God becomes a bit more of a loving God to me, when I think about that.
This sure makes the parable of the talents seem less cruel to me. How would you like to be the one who happened to get tossed onto unfertile soil right off the bat? To be given almost no chance at salvation simply because of a roll of the dice? Or worse, because that was God’s actual intention for you? That’s not Love. That’s heartless. There IS justice, but justice without love? What if part of the reason you only received two talents this time is because you squandered the five you got in a prior life? (Yes, I’m talking about karmic reward.)
Please don’t respond to me about my heresy and what awaits me in the afterlife because of it. Respond to me because I am a lifelong Catholic who could not accept predestination the way the Catholic church attempts to teach it. I just can’t. But when I consider the possiblity of reincarnation being a part of the universal law, my heart just melts. Now I have found the God that I can love, a truly just God who’s love makes better sense to me.
All souls are called to Him. And all souls are given the means to come to him on their own terms, taking as long as it takes, of their own free will. And they ALL will. Not just a few lucky ones.
This is what I want to believe. So let the refutations begin.
Shall I start showing you the places in the bible that suggest Jesus understood reincarnation? Just how many times did he tell his disciples that John the Baptist indeed was Elijah?
The problem is this: How can we reconcile the notion of “God is love,” with the notion that a great many of the souls God creates will spend an eternity in hell. Including possibly, ourselves. And to top it off, God is also omniscient. He knew this particular soul was headed for hell before he even created it. Am I being heretical just by saying this? I hope not.
Why spend so much time trying to force a square peg into a round hole? I know I’m going to get kicked for this, but… Show me in the bible where Jesus refutes reincarnation again? Because I’m finding more places where he seems to understand that it’s a reality, as opposed to places where he’s telling people it’s a mistake to believe in it. (“Whom do you say that I am?” “Some say Elijah…” etc.)
If you add reincarnation into the picture, and you accept that souls do not rot in hell forever and ever and there is no future left, but open up to the possiblity that no God who is Love would do that to any one of His creations, then doesn’t the concept of predestination make complete sense? Why only assign just a few “elect” souls to Jesus? Shouldn’t we all be assigned to him?? Think about the possibility that eventually “after every last debt has been paid” you just maybe are allowed out of that prison and given another chance? That there are laws in place to allow every soul to also learn from the mistakes and not just solely to punish eternally forever for them? God becomes a bit more of a loving God to me, when I think about that.
This sure makes the parable of the talents seem less cruel to me. How would you like to be the one who happened to get tossed onto unfertile soil right off the bat? To be given almost no chance at salvation simply because of a roll of the dice? Or worse, because that was God’s actual intention for you? That’s not Love. That’s heartless. There IS justice, but justice without love? What if part of the reason you only received two talents this time is because you squandered the five you got in a prior life? (Yes, I’m talking about karmic reward.)
Please don’t respond to me about my heresy and what awaits me in the afterlife because of it. Respond to me because I am a lifelong Catholic who could not accept predestination the way the Catholic church attempts to teach it. I just can’t. But when I consider the possiblity of reincarnation being a part of the universal law, my heart just melts. Now I have found the God that I can love, a truly just God who’s love makes better sense to me.
All souls are called to Him. And all souls are given the means to come to him on their own terms, taking as long as it takes, of their own free will. And they ALL will. Not just a few lucky ones.
This is what I want to believe. So let the refutations begin.
Shall I start showing you the places in the bible that suggest Jesus understood reincarnation? Just how many times did he tell his disciples that John the Baptist indeed was Elijah?
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paul_c
Guest
Joe1972
I’m not sure that reincarnation really is as advantageous as you suggest.
You want multiple chances to get it right? Well, all you need to do is go to confession and you can start over. What could be more fair and easy than that.
You are concerned about some people getting a better lot in life? Well, God grades on a curve. " To those to who more is given, more will be expected". Remember, God made everyone of us for a specific task in life to which we are perfectly made. A great example of that is Bernadette Soubirous. She was uneducated, poor, unhealthy and literally lived in a dungeon, yet she perfectly fulfilled her mission as the visionary at Lourdes and is now a much admired Saint. Life is a test to see whether you will choose God or evil. And remember worldly success is every bit as challenging a test as poverty. How many successful sports stars , politicians and entertainers do you see resorting to drugs or other vices because they can’t find satsifaction for what they really need, which is God.
And don’t forget that reincarnation brings its own issues. The value of life is necessarily devalued when you have as many as you need to get it right. That would be a demotivator for achieving holiness in my view.
In Catholic Theology, every man has the chance to get to heaven. Sure, God knows what we will choose, but its still our choice. This is true love.
And by the way, Church doctrine is very clear that when you die you are immediately judged. There are no second lives…
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Joe1972
Guest
How many people in North Korea have a confessor? That’s okay, for them, they don’t have to be as holy as us, because those poor souls fell on unfertile soil. But they do get to enjoy the same fruits of heaven as we would, wouldn’t they? Even though they got a D in spirituality and we got an A? But WE better not get a D, or it’s off to the furnace?
Life is a test. Choose God or choose evil. Even if you are surrounded on all four sides by evil the moment you are born? So you grow up absolutely hating Jews simply because you had the bad luck of being born into a bad place in the middle east, and end up killing yourself in a suicide blast, all because you were taught to hate from day one. I’d definitely call that infertile soil with not many talents at the outset. Does that mean this person gets to go to heaven even for a failing grade? After all He grades on a curve. If you disagree with that prospect and say that poor suicide bomber is doomed to the furnace because he had a chance to choose God and he didn’t, then that’s where we have a problem. He never had a chance.
And this is why we all have a problem with predestination. We do believe in God’s omniscience. And it just doesn’t jive with what we are being taught about the finality of hell.
God created the soul that turned into that suicide bomber. Venerable Louis of Grenada does a terrific job of teaching us about how much love God pours into each one of us in our creation. But all that does is make it worse, if you believe in this notion of “You get one life, and too bad if you have nothing but evil parents and evil surroundings and you go blow yourself up; you had your chance.” Why pour so much love into something that is headed for the trash can?? I cannot fathom this.
What if you had the bad fortune of being that soul? It’s easy for you to sit there and say “Life is a test, choose God, or choose evil,” because you fell on fertile soil. You wouldn’t be too pleased in that universal law if you were the soul that landed in that life in the middle east instead of the one you are in now, would you?!
God knew that man would rot in hell after 18 years of life in the middle east? So, why create hiim? It’s because God already had a plan in place for people like that. You get to go again. Lots of times it comes after a period of anguish while you suffer with the knowledge of what you’ve done. But it doesn’t last forever. That’s just plain cruel, and heartless. And it doesn’t allow us an opportunity to learn from it.
God is Love! He is greater than you are making Him out to be! Do we really choose God if we understand it’s only to avoid hell? Choose Him because He loves us way more than you are giving Him credit for, my brother!
This is predestination. Something nobody seems to be able to answer without sounding like they are putting a square peg into a round hole. Examine the pegs again please.
Life is a test. Choose God or choose evil. Even if you are surrounded on all four sides by evil the moment you are born? So you grow up absolutely hating Jews simply because you had the bad luck of being born into a bad place in the middle east, and end up killing yourself in a suicide blast, all because you were taught to hate from day one. I’d definitely call that infertile soil with not many talents at the outset. Does that mean this person gets to go to heaven even for a failing grade? After all He grades on a curve. If you disagree with that prospect and say that poor suicide bomber is doomed to the furnace because he had a chance to choose God and he didn’t, then that’s where we have a problem. He never had a chance.
And this is why we all have a problem with predestination. We do believe in God’s omniscience. And it just doesn’t jive with what we are being taught about the finality of hell.
God created the soul that turned into that suicide bomber. Venerable Louis of Grenada does a terrific job of teaching us about how much love God pours into each one of us in our creation. But all that does is make it worse, if you believe in this notion of “You get one life, and too bad if you have nothing but evil parents and evil surroundings and you go blow yourself up; you had your chance.” Why pour so much love into something that is headed for the trash can?? I cannot fathom this.
What if you had the bad fortune of being that soul? It’s easy for you to sit there and say “Life is a test, choose God, or choose evil,” because you fell on fertile soil. You wouldn’t be too pleased in that universal law if you were the soul that landed in that life in the middle east instead of the one you are in now, would you?!
God knew that man would rot in hell after 18 years of life in the middle east? So, why create hiim? It’s because God already had a plan in place for people like that. You get to go again. Lots of times it comes after a period of anguish while you suffer with the knowledge of what you’ve done. But it doesn’t last forever. That’s just plain cruel, and heartless. And it doesn’t allow us an opportunity to learn from it.
God is Love! He is greater than you are making Him out to be! Do we really choose God if we understand it’s only to avoid hell? Choose Him because He loves us way more than you are giving Him credit for, my brother!
This is predestination. Something nobody seems to be able to answer without sounding like they are putting a square peg into a round hole. Examine the pegs again please.
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shaky
Guest
Hi paul
That is fair. People who go Against the Conscience should be Judged.
what would you say about babys and Infants that die should they automatically go to Heaven?
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diggerdomer
Guest
God desires all to be saved. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches. See the Catechism para 74.Hi paul
I understand scripture tells us that salvation is Available for all men. but i dont understand that scripture tells us it calls all men. Even Jesus himself only says ‘‘MANY’’ are called.
Even being realistic looking at history not all men are called in there lifetime.
Millions have lived and died not knowing about Jesus or the Gospel.
P
paul_c
Guest
No one really knows what will become of babys and infants who have not been baptized. We leave it to God’s judgement and mercy.
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paul_c
Guest
They will have to be personally holy to enter heaven, just like us. If they don’t have access to the sacraments, then that clearly can’t be held against them. But if we have access and don’t partake, then we are deliberately turning our backs on God’s grace and that IS culpable.
Not true. Just because you are among evil people doesn’t mean that you are allowed to do evil and be saved. Not everyone in Afghanistan is a suicide bomber, after all. And not every one who grew up in Nazi Germany grew up hating Jews. Its a matter of following one’s conscience.
Remember, the Catholic Church teaches that while some are predestined to heaven, none are predestined to hell. All have a chance at heaven. And while God wants us all to join him in heaven, he knows that some will not want to.
We are all of limited capability and can not always understand everything that God does. That doesn’t mean that God is wrong. It just shows our limitations in understanding. You see there are two approaches when we don’t agree with what the church teaches. The first is to simply assume the church is wrong and create our own religion. The second is to recognize our own limitations, assume we are missing something, and then diligently try to learn what the Church actually teaches.
You have no idea of whether I fell on fertile soil or not. And you also don’t know what constitutes fertile soil. Why are you so judgemental against people in the middle east.
No, you don’t get to go again. You have one life to demonstrate whether you choose God or not. You can make that choice in any life environment. I would tell you that its just as difficult to choose God if you have everything as when you have nothing. That’s because those that have everything secular people value (money, fame, power) more often than not, think that’s all there is and that they did it all on their own…
This is correct. You will only achieve heaven if you love God unconditionally . If you “love” him only for the reward of heaven or the threat of hell, you will be condemned because that is not love.
The problem is in your misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching of predestination. No one is condemned to hell. God speaks to every one of us through our consciences, including those suicide bombers, and leads them to himself. Those that ignore their consciences will be condemned. Those that follow God will have eternal life.
You’d like it to be that all men are saved but the fact is, not all men want that for themselves. We all get what we ultimately want and deserve…
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