Tackling Predestination

[Bengoshi]

I did.

I’m talking about what the Catholic Church teaches, not Pete Holter.

Even Augustine and Aquinas are only properly understood in the context of what the Catholic Church teaches (as I am sure they would agree, if asked).

I stand by my original post. Comments?

(Edited)
Are not Augustine and Aquinas Catholic saints and doctors of the Church? What the RCC teaches is what the pope and its councils teach. The Church is the people of God, the body of Christ. Can’t we understand human language that that it should always be the RCC that should interpret things for us? God gave us intellect for us to use you know…

 

[Bengoshi]

Right. Like the divinity of Jesus Christ. And the Holy Spirit.

It’s not simply the Church “adding” something as if it didn’t exist before, it’s the Church in its humanity coming to a fuller realization of the divine truth always revealed by God, and being able to more fully express it in human terms.

So what?

You do know that the divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is taught by Scripture. The cults also use that excuse you used when they are confronted with changes in their doctrines.

 

[Bengoshi]

I am surprised by your sweeping remark, which is so unlike you!!! Are you denying that the whole of salvation history is a gradual revelation of truth? Don’t you realise that this is God’s own perfect way? Are you saying that all truth was revealed in one go? If so, when? Can you elaborate?

God’s revelation is in the Bible, nothing more, nothing less.

In fact, only now are we truly in the topic.

The topic is predestination, not the canon of scripture and not sacred tradition.

I have peronally encountered truth. Believe me. Read my testimony: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6839524&postcount=35

I’ve read you testimony lots of times. Try reading the books I told you about.

 

[Pitcharan]

God’s revelation is in the Bible, nothing more, nothing less.

Does the Bible say that He will reveal no more?

The topic is predestination, not the canon of scripture and not sacred tradition.

Are you suggesting we discuss the topic without any reference to any canon or srcipture?

I’ve read you testimony lots of times. Try reading the books I told you about.

If you encountered God and He told you to follow the RCC, would you still prefer reading books which teach otherwise?

 

[Bengoshi]

Does the Bible say that He will reveal no more?

Revelation 22:18-19

Are you suggesting we discuss the topic without any reference to any canon or srcipture?

What I meant was we should not go into a lengthy discussion thereof because that is not the topic of this thread. We can refer to it of course but to discuss its canonicity is for another thread.

If you encountered God and He told you to follow the RCC, would you still prefer reading books which teach otherwise?

He should prove to me that he is God indeed because the Bible says that many false Christs and prophets will come to deceive even the elect.

 

[Pitcharan]

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:18-19)
How could you misinterpret something as plain as that? John is merely warning against tampering with his book. There is NOT the slightest suggestion that his book is the final part of all truth revealed by God

He should prove to me that he is God indeed because the Bible says that many false Christs and prophets will come to deceive even the elect.

In my testimony I mentioned the proofs too.

 

[Joe1972]

Careful. This is half true.
The Church teaches that some people are predestined for heaven. Mary being concieved without original sin is a primary example. These exceptional people were put on earth to lead the rest of us to God.

But the Church also teaches that No one is predestined to hell. In that, you are absolutely correct.

Why make some people exceptional and not everyone?

 

[Joe1972]

So are you saying that there is no more need to evangelize? That those who do not even know Jesus may be saved? That it is possible for people to earn their salvation apart from Christ? Remember that our works are evidence of our faith for ‘faith without works is dead’. Although we are not saved by works but by grace through faith, our works (fruit) will determine whether our faith in God is genuine or not. God will indeed justly repay everyone according to his works, either in heaven or in hell. however, our woks per se will not and cannot save us.

Wasn’t Jesus asked that very question by his disciples? They wanted to know if a person who never heard of God, if he would be saved. What was the Master’s answer?

 

[Joe1972]

History has shown that as the years go by, the church of Rome has been adding new dogmas and doctrines not originally held by the early church nor by the apostles.

We’re already getting off topic here so you can just go and check out TRUTH ENCOUNTER by Anthony Pezzotta and THE DARK SIDE OF CATHOLICISM by Armando Ang.

I agree. Take creatio ex nihilo for example.

 

[paul_c]

Wasn’t Jesus asked that very question by his disciples? They wanted to know if a person who never heard of God, if he would be saved. What was the Master’s answer?

What verse are you thinking of?

 

[Joe1972]

This is the sad part about being Catholic, you’re not even sure of your salvation. How can you effectively serve God or have joy in your heart when at the end of the day, you’re not even sure if you’ll be with God? St. Paul tell us to rejoice because of the hope that we have in Christ. However, everyone commits mortal sins as defined by the RCC, so all Catholics are in danger of going to hell. It may just be a case of a person’s timing of death.

This is an aspect of the Catholic teaching that never made sense to me. And it all surrounds this notion of the finality of hell. It doesn’t make sense.

Let’s say you have five children. You do your best to raise them well. But as they get older they all fall in with the wrong kind of friends who only bring them down, and they get into all sorts of vices, and eventually they die and go to hell. But you stayed true to your faith, and went to heaven. But how are you able to enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing all five of your beloved children are rotting in eternal torment forever?? Does God just erase all memory of your kids, so that you can enjoy paradise better?

No. All souls will eventually find their way back to God. And the tools for them to complete that journey were put in place before they began.

 

[paul_c]

Why make some people exceptional and not everyone?

You know from simple observation that not everyone is the same, right? Not everyone is 7 feet tall, for instance. God has chosen, in his wisdom, to do this. Everyone has a job to do and the unique skills and capability to do it. This includes those that are called to particular holiness by divine intervention.

 

[paul_c]

This is the sad part about being Catholic, you’re not even sure of your salvation.

I always find it ironic when non-Catholic Christians are sure of their salvation. What is the source of that confidence? Isn’t it for God to judge?

How can you effectively serve God or have joy in your heart when at the end of the day, you’re not even sure if you’ll be with God?

You see, you misunderstand that very basis of Catholic teaching: Love. Love is doing something for someone else without expecting anything in return. And Love is its own reward. We don’t serve God to get to heaven. We serve God out of love. The Protestant refrain about Catholics working their way to heaven is hugely ironic. You don’t hear Catholics worrying about going to heaven anywhere near as ofter as Protestants, and particularly Evangelicals do. That’s because we are content to love and to let Jesus be the judge of our worthiness. And our consciences aren’t always prodding us to question whether we are going to heaven, for the very same reason.

St. Paul tell us to rejoice because of the hope that we have in Christ.

and we do, but we also have read in 1Corinthians 13 that love never fails.

However, everyone commits mortal sins as defined by the RCC, so all Catholics are in danger of going to hell. It may just be a case of a person’s timing of death.

No, not everyone commits mortal sin. Why do you think that? do you understand the definition of mortal sin:
In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

• Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
• Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
• Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Why do you say that Maccabees is an apocryphal book. It was always part of the Canon of scripture. How do you know what is Canonical to begin with, having separated yourself from the church authority that compiled the canon…
Not everything is in scripture.

Regardless of Jerome’s opinion, the deuterocanonical books were in the Vulgate because of the decision of the Councils that were approved by Pope Damasus in 382AD. And those 7 books are fully integrated into the Canon of scripture, since they are quoted and referred to dozens of times in the books of the new testament.
cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
God did not wipe out your sins.

So what? Its out of context… You can cull out a few lines of scripture to say almost anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
And the Old testament saints certainly practiced auricular confession in order to be forgiven their sins. They confessed their sins publicly and carried out the penance given to them by the priest before being allowed to partake of the sacraments again. St. Ambrose wouldn’t let the emperor have the sacraments until he did a very public penance, for instance.

They confessed it to a priest, who gave them penance and absolved them of their sins, whether or not it was in private is insignificant.

Besides, we don’t even need priests anymore since Christ died because He is our High Priest and we now have the priesthood of believers.

You can only say this if you ignore the fact that Jesus appointed apostles and they in turn appointed bishops, presbyters (priests) and deacons. Read Acts and the Epistles. You’ll see. This was done by the layiing on of hands.

That is the significance of the tearing of the curtain separating the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle.

The significance of this was that with Jesus sacrifice, heaven was opened to all men who follow his example.

What we now have are bishops (overseers), pastors, deacons, and elders.

This is just a lame attempt at copying the Catholic Hierarchy without the Apostolic succession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
And what is so special about your preaching that allows someones sins to be forgiven? What are your credentials that would give someone confidence that their sins are actually forgiven.

Friend, that is no credential at all. All manner of people claim to do the same, including Charles Manson and Jim Jones. Why would anyone trust what you say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Just because you have a bible, doesn’t mean you know how to interpret it. You need Catholic tradition as the key to understand it.

Its not an issue of laity versus clergy. Its an issue of understanding how to interpret scripture and being consistent with the original teachings of Jesus through the Apostles. These Scriptures have been with us for 2000 years. The church knows what they mean and they explain it to us and we explain it to others. If there is a conflict, we know to go to the Bishop, who is authorized to interpret for the church. If you on the other hand, come up with a new interpretation, you know that it is not how it was originally meant to be understood and is therefore wrong.

Only Scripture is infallible and inerrant.

Scripture is only inerrant if it is interpreted by an infallible source. You know from your own experience that differnet people interpret scripture differently. It is not therefore infallible and inerrent on its own, other wise everyone who read it would come to the same conclusions every time.

By the way, Protestants also refer to tradition and church history, we just don’t put them on equal footing with Scripture.

. Of course you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
And yes, sola Scriptura was necessary for the reformers to have any connection to Christ after they waled away from the church. Your statement that Rome is arbitrary just means you don’t understand Catholicism very well. The Catholic Church only teaches what it has been taught…

What are the credentials of those you’ve cited that they should be believed? Try reading the Church fathers instead. You will find it enlightening.

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[twb1621]

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*You seem to have a misconception of Sola Scriptura. It just means that Scripture is the only finally authoritative source of doctrine. As I’ve said, Protestants also rely on tradition and church history for guidance but not in the same breadth as the RCC does.

No offense please, but that is your definition on Sola Scriptura but not the belief that the protestant reformation promoted nor the definitive belief of Protestantism as a whole, especially over its brief history. That is one of several positions dependant upon which protestant born system of beliefs is adopted and then dependant in most cases on what Church within that system of beliefs is being referred to. Your reference to church History is most interesting considering the lineage of the teachings including the Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church are consistent and proven from scripture and the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, ECFs overall, and their successors throughout their common references.

*I do not argue with the passages you cited for they are Scripture. However, some of the stuff you enumerated above are indeed supported by Scripture, such as the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-20).

The reference you made to reconciliation in the verse you have referred to give no support to any of the points I raised to you. The passage is Paul’s reference to the ministry of reconciliation as it was entrusted to Paul and the other apostles who are the teachers of the gospels and ministers of Christ in His Church, not indiscriminately to the body of believers. And it certainly does not refer to reconciling the Church body to any human being. For all to have the authority to reconcile especially the Church of Christ itself would be in opposition to the authority He assigned throughout scripture and in direct opposition to the sample of verses I offered you previously. Scripture does not conflict with itself. Your interpretation conflicts with other passages and has no relationship to Paul’s reference. If it is the case you can not produce scriptural support for the points I raised previously, it is because the support is against those issues in the warnings we received of just such events.

Matthew CH24; 4 “And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. 6 And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

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*It is the RCC who added to the Jewish Scripture. The Reformers just wanted to return to the system of the Church during the time of the Acts of the Apostles.

My brother, the RCC did not “add” to anything but we can enter deeply into that realm in another thread at some point if you desire, as you said before it would be overwhelming here.

Going back to the post you very limitedly responded to here, you did not answer the majority of scriptural references I asked of you, but at this point will again refer to even just a couple;

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

1. Consider deeply and truthfully, can you credibly justify the principles of Sola Scriptura and the thousands of individual interpretations including yours and the many independent churches SC has led to against scripture itself? Can you credibly claim you speak the same thing, that you are a part of no schismatic movement and that you are perfect in the same mind and same judgment as the teachings of the Church Jesus founded established with the apostles and continued through the apostolic Fathers and their successors have attested to for 2000 years?

These are some of the proclamations Jesus made in His covenant between Him and the Church He founded with His Blood:

The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. (future revelation).

I point out once again, To suggest that Jesus, in any way did not keep the covenant He made with His Church is to accuse Jesus of failing to keep His Word and there is truly no way around that.

1. Can you credibly question the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church, to so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as and when He determines appropriate to Him? Does man know better than God and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that?

 

[paul_c]

This is an aspect of the Catholic teaching that never made sense to me. And it all surrounds this notion of the finality of hell. It doesn’t make sense.

Let’s say you have five children. You do your best to raise them well. But as they get older they all fall in with the wrong kind of friends who only bring them down, and they get into all sorts of vices, and eventually they die and go to hell. But you stayed true to your faith, and went to heaven. But how are you able to enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing all five of your beloved children are rotting in eternal torment forever?? Does God just erase all memory of your kids, so that you can enjoy paradise better?

No. All souls will eventually find their way back to God. And the tools for them to complete that journey were put in place before they began.

I know it is difficult for you to accept the truth of the finality of heaven and hell, but that doesn’t make it any less real. lots of people don’t like the finality of death either, but it is what it is.

 

[twb1621]

This is an aspect of the Catholic teaching that never made sense to me. And it all surrounds this notion of the finality of hell. It doesn’t make sense.

Let’s say you have five children. You do your best to raise them well. But as they get older they all fall in with the wrong kind of friends who only bring them down, and they get into all sorts of vices, and eventually they die and go to hell. But you stayed true to your faith, and went to heaven. But how are you able to enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing all five of your beloved children are rotting in eternal torment forever?? Does God just erase all memory of your kids, so that you can enjoy paradise better?

No. All souls will eventually find their way back to God. And the tools for them to complete that journey were put in place before they began.

Joe, if I may interject, the mistaken notion is that the Catholic Church teaches these thing but rather they are the teachings of Christ from scripture that are taught, not something made up by the Church and taught without reason. It may be a bit more understandable and acceptable if it is kept in mind it is not so cut and dry as you feel it may be. It seems your question requires a great deall more discussion for you to have a better understanding of all that is involved. Remember that prayer is a powerful form of communication and faith includes trust in God. These things are only part of the factors involved in what you have concerns with. As far as all souls finding their way back to God, if that were true, scripture would be meaningless and the final judgment unnecessary.

 

[Bengoshi]

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My brother, the RCC did not “add” to anything but we can enter deeply into that realm in another thread at some point if you desire, as you said before it would be overwhelming here.

Going back to the post you very limitedly responded to here, you did not answer the majority of scriptural references I asked of you, but at this point will again refer to even just a couple;

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

1. Consider deeply and truthfully, can you credibly justify the principles of Sola Scriptura and the thousands of individual interpretations including yours and the many independent churches SC has led to against scripture itself? Can you credibly claim you speak the same thing, that you are a part of no schismatic movement and that you are perfect in the same mind and same judgment as the teachings of the Church Jesus founded established with the apostles and continued through the apostolic Fathers and their successors have attested to for 2000 years?

These are some of the proclamations Jesus made in His covenant between Him and the Church He founded with His Blood:

The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. (future revelation).

I point out once again, To suggest that Jesus, in any way did not keep the covenant He made with His Church is to accuse Jesus of failing to keep His Word and there is truly no way around that.

1. Can you credibly question the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church, to so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as and when He determines appropriate to Him? Does man know better than God and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that?

I’m sorry for the short quick replies but there ahve been a lot of distractions here in the office recently (Yes, I view my work as a distraction to the prclamation of the Gospel ). Here’s a good book on the subject of the different beliefs of the various Christian churches:

CONVICTION WITHOUT COMPROMISE by Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes.

I already addressed some of the verses you posted in my previous posts such as the gates of hell thingy.

 

[stephe1987]

People choose their own destinations through their actions. You can choose to accept God, or to not accept Him. And God can see our hearts and tell if we’re truly sorry or not.

I guess in theory God already knows who’s going to heaven and who isn’t, since He isn’t bound by time. But IMO that would be boring to skip ahead. It would be like watching the end of a movie or reading the end of the book before seeing how the characters got there. Why not just stay in the present and forgive sins as they happen, watch the people learn and grow?

Regarding assurance of salvation, only God knows if we’re saved. We are saved by His grace. Faith in Christ and being a good person (living by His teachings) help, but ultimately God chooses who goes to heaven. What if you are good right now, accept Christ, and then later on go crazy and become a mass murderer? I don’t think “once saved, always saved” works. It depends on the state of your soul when you die, and whether or not you’re sorry for your past sins when that time comes.