Tackling Predestination

[jericho777]

Not even close.

In what possible way would being a Jewish resemble being among the Calvinistic “elect”?

I must have missed where the Jewish get out of hell free card is printed in the old testament.

Chuck

The point is it is God who elects and saves. While they are bilnded so the gentiles may be saved God will save His people because He chose them.

God’s grace (unmerited favor) and His mercy (not giving us what we do deserve) brings us to His presence.

We deserve hell but He gives us heaven

 

[paul_c]

It’s only by God working in us that we can live for Him. Our old will/nature is replaced by a new man with a new will/nature that our desire is for Him. Do we not long for Him?

Okay. I agree with you. But that changes nothing. You still need to cooperate with God who is working within you to be saved. If you do not do the works to which you have been called, you will still be condemned. And you absolutely have the choice whether to do so or not. God calls every man to himself but not all are willing. If you read Luke 14, you will see that the demands of disciplehood are such that many fall away.

 

[paul_c]

The point is it is God who elects and saves. While they are bilnded so the gentiles may be saved God will save His people because He chose them.

God’s grace (unmerited favor) and His mercy (not giving us what we do deserve) brings us to His presence.

We deserve hell but He gives us heaven

Jericho,

Did you see this point from thegrons earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by thegrons

Most Calvinists et al Christians don’t understand what grace is. Paul tells us in Romans 6 “you are not under law but grace, therefore sin shall not have dominion over you” and in Titus he says “the grace of God has appeared teaching men to say no to sin”. Grace is the power to live above sin; it is not ability for a Christian to sin daily and still be in good standing with God.

This was so well said that I wanted to repeat it. As i mentioned in the last post, go back and read Luke 14. It shows the demand on the disciple of Christ. Jesus expects us to live as he did if we want to get to heaven. That means self sacrifice and love of God and neighbor.
27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
28 Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion?
29 Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him
30 and say, ‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
31 Or what king marching into battle would not first sit down and decide whether with ten thousand troops he can successfully oppose another king advancing upon him with twenty thousand troops?
32 But if not, while he is still far away, he will send a delegation to ask for peace terms.
33 In the same way, everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions cannot be my disciple.

Then read Matthew 7:

12 Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

If some one tells you that all you need to do is believe in Jesus’ mercy and he will save you, show them these passages. It makes it abundantly clear that it takes more than that to go to heaven.

when Jesus was asked what it takes to go to heaven directly in Matthew 19, he said.

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Push him towards universialism and let him refuted it himself,

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Timothy 2:3-4
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Also, study Hebrews 6:4-6 to ask him to explain that text.

 

[jericho777]

Okay. I agree with you. But that changes nothing. You still need to cooperate with God who is working within you to be saved. If you do not do the works to which you have been called, you will still be condemned. And you absolutely have the choice whether to do so or not. God calls every man to himself but not all are willing. If you read Luke 14, you will see that the demands of disciplehood are such that many fall away.

Those who have the new nature by that very nature cooperate with God. The old nature was dead in trespass and sin and incapable of doing anything that would please God. It is saving grace that drives the new nature to serve God. We cannot do Gods will apart from that new nature.

Our wills are bound by the nature we have. In your old nature you are an enemy to God. You can only choose evil and in capable to choose anything of God. In the new nature you are a child of God. You are freed by the new nature to choose and to serve God.

When we have our Sabbath rest in Christ we cease from our works and trust in His Heb 4:10-11 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

If we rest in Him we will do His good works for His Glory. Our salvation can never be maintained by any works we do. Seriously how could think that you could ever impress God or earn His love through anything you could ever do. You seem bound by fear that if you do something wrong God will cast you away.

 

[jericho777]

Jericho,

Did you see this point from thegrons earlier in this thread:

This was so well said that I wanted to repeat it. As i mentioned in the last post, go back and read Luke 14. It shows the demand on the disciple of Christ. Jesus expects us to live as he did if we want to get to heaven. That means self sacrifice and love of God and neighbor.
27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
28 Which of you wishing to construct a tower does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if there is enough for its completion?
29 Otherwise, after laying the foundation and finding himself unable to finish the work the onlookers should laugh at him
30 and say, ‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
31 Or what king marching into battle would not first sit down and decide whether with ten thousand troops he can successfully oppose another king advancing upon him with twenty thousand troops?
32 But if not, while he is still far away, he will send a delegation to ask for peace terms.
33 In the same way, everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions cannot be my disciple.

Then read Matthew 7:

12 Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

If some one tells you that all you need to do is believe in Jesus’ mercy and he will save you, show them these passages. It makes it abundantly clear that it takes more than that to go to heaven.

when Jesus was asked what it takes to go to heaven directly in Matthew 19, he said.

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

Most Calvinists et al Christians don’t understand what grace is. Paul tells us in Romans 6 “you are not under law but grace, therefore sin shall not have dominion over you” and in Titus he says “the grace of God has appeared teaching men to say no to sin”. Grace is the power to live above sin; it is not ability for a Christian to sin daily and still be in good standing with God.

I think this is the classic Calvinist position! Now you are starting to understand.

The next three sections of scripture are the result of Gods irresistible grace enabling the believer to live a victorious life, overcoming the flesh and the world. Being freed to serve the Lord and bring Him glory.

 

[shaky]

I don’t think the Scriptural text affords the understanding that God withholds grace to anyone. Scripture says He wills the salvation of all men, that grace has appeared to all nations, God delivered all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all, etc…

Hi MarcoPolo

I can understand God that the Grace of God appeared to all Nations and all people.
And he Wills all men to be saved. Every body Knows about Jesus Christ and his offer of salvation.
But there is a difference between grace appeared to a person. To Grace Given to a person
To have the ability to choose and act in the right way. {Romans 11:5} So to this present time there is a remnant Chosen by Grace.
What i am trying to get at do we have to be Chosen First before we have the ability to Choose and act in the right way.

Also I have never quite understood why the idea of God’s foreknowledge would take away anyone’s free will exercised in time and space.

If Gods foreknowledge Knows all our choices and actions from when we are born till the day we die. If he Knows all this. Our choices and actions are already mapped out in advance.
So it is like being in some film. keep playing the film over and over nothing is going to Change.
We are like some actor playing a part that has already been written.
If we are in something that is already written we have not free will we are like some actor
acting in the way we are predestined to act.

Shakespeare wrote the worlds a stage and we are only actors. He was he a catholic christian.

 

[paul_c]

Most Calvinists et al Christians don’t understand what grace is. Paul tells us in Romans 6 “you are not under law but grace, therefore sin shall not have dominion over you” and in Titus he says “the grace of God has appeared teaching men to say no to sin”. Grace is the power to live above sin; it is not ability for a Christian to sin daily and still be in good standing with God.

I think this is the classic Calvinist position! Now you are starting to understand.

The next three sections of scripture are the result of Gods irresistible grace enabling the believer to live a victorious life, overcoming the flesh and the world. Being freed to serve the Lord and bring Him glory.

Jericho, These three sections of scripture describe how we must act in love to gain eternal life and how it is our responsibility to do so. They do not say anything about God’s grace being irresistable. You have twisted them in your mind to defend a flawed theology…

 

[shaky]

Paul, you may want to point out the specific post #. My view settings are for 100 posts per page. So in this thread, I’m still on page 1.

Hi MarcoPolo

I am totaly confused my self about page 1 and 6 and what post to go to. can you please
Explain. Thanks

 

[benedictus2]

It is God’s soverign grace that chooses us for His Glory apart from anything that we do.
Rom 9:11-13Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

He did this for the elect.
Rom 9:22-24 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

But this does not answer my post. Just quoting more scripture will not get you out of it because the scripture you posted in defense of predestination, is in fact not saying what you are claiming it says.

So one more time:

You said: “We are all conceived in sin and deserve Hell (Gods justice) but saves some (grace and mercy) Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

I said: “And where in this text does it ay that the “whom” does not mean “all”.

All this text says is that it is God’s prerogative. Nothing here indicates that it means He will have mercy on some but not on others based on eeny, meeny, miny, mo.”
You also said: “God has the power and ability to save everyone but chooses not to why?”
So I said: “If you are referring to the quotes above, it does not say that at all. you are correct, He has the ability to save all. But where does it say that HE CHOOSES NOT TO? “
Jericho, you need to address my response and actually answer my questions instead of just piling on scripture which does not relate to my question.

 

[benedictus2]

1 Was ment to show it was God’s for knowledge that elects us.

You used this verse " *29*For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Well based on that, it seems that every one is saved because God foreknew every one.
If those He foreknew are all predestined and justified and glorified, then we must all be predestined for election since God foreknew us all.

2 This is the point of this one has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.]

I have no problem with that.

3 Just shows that it is God who calls and saves us totally. It’s not of us.

I have no problem with that either. But the topic here is predestination where the claim is that God chooses arbitrarily who will be saved and who will be damned.

Our point is that God does not damn us, we do that by our selves.

 

[jericho777]

Jericho, These three sections of scripture describe how we must act in love to gain eternal life and how it is our responsibility to do so. They do not say anything about God’s grace being irresistable. You have twisted them in your mind to defend a flawed theology…

It is a matter of the nature we posses. sinners are bound to sin whereas Christians have the nature of Christ and are bound to His purposes.

 

[jericho777]

But this does not answer my post. Just quoting more scripture will not get you out of it because the scripture you posted in defense of predestination, is in fact not saying what you are claiming it says.

So one more time:

You said: “We are all conceived in sin and deserve Hell (Gods justice) but saves some (grace and mercy) Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

I said: “And where in this text does it ay that the “whom” does not mean “all”.

All this text says is that it is God’s prerogative. Nothing here indicates that it means He will have mercy on some but not on others based on eeny, meeny, miny, mo.”
You also said: “God has the power and ability to save everyone but chooses not to why?”
So I said: “If you are referring to the quotes above, it does not say that at all. you are correct, He has the ability to save all. But where does it say that HE CHOOSES NOT TO? “
Jericho, you need to address my response and actually answer my questions instead of just piling on scripture which does not relate to my question.

So your point is that God ultimately will save all people (universalism)

 

[inocente]

Interesting thread.

She says that good works, like having love and forgiveness, can get us to higher “places” in Heaven…that even the most horrible sinner who has been “chosen” by God to have faith in him will make Heaven, just a low place in Heaven.

That gets preached by visitors from time to time, and the preacher never gets invited back. The theme is of acquiring an ace condo in a nice suburb of Heaven, within easy commuting distance of God, while those that don’t do good works live in an inner-city slum. Really.

What the…??? Oh, and tithing is a great way to get you a swimming pool. lol

I suspect that her particular slant on predestination comes from the saying “It’s all about Him, not about us”. One interpretation is that we are protected from the wrath of the OT God by the cloak of Christ. Whatever the theology, the saying is meant to honor Jesus for His great sacrifice but she’s taken it to a whole new level.

 

[benedictus2]

So your point is that God ultimately will save all people (universalism)

My point is that you provided scripture that does not say what you think it says.

Maybe you can answer the questions I raised.

 

[benedictus2]

Here's why I lean toward (1). First, neither the 1 Timothy text nor the 2 Peter text require the interpretation that position 2 gives them. In context, "all men" may refer to all men without distinction, rather than all men without exception. This is because Paul seems to be thinking about "types" of people (verse 1), such as kings and others in authority. Thus there are good contextual grounds for taking the "all" in a relative, rather than absolute sense. Remember, it is Paul who posits the idea that God is a potter who makes "vessels of wrath fit for destruction." So it's not at all obvious that Paul believed God intends to save everyone or even desires this.

But this is just spin.

All as in ‘no distinction, means all as in no exception’.

Example: No distinction: Gentile or Jew, servant or free, woman or man.
Therefore no exception: No gentile, jew, servant, free, woman or man are excepted.

As for the 2 Peter text, it is also possible that the “any” refers to those whom Peter is addressing in his letter. Peter may be saying, God doesn’t want any of you to perish, which explains why he is “patient toward you.” In context, “you” explains that Peter only has believers in mind. If you turn back a chapter to 2 Peter 2:4-10, you’ll see that Peter does not believe that God is “unwilling” that any should perish, since God in fact not only allowed, but actually caused many to parish eternally.

Re-read verses 4-10… Those who were condemned were so condemned because of their sins not out of some arbitrary will. Nothing here says that those who were condemned were denied a chance to turn to the Lord.

Sin is sin because of a wilfull denial of the Lord.

This brings us to the moral/philosophical objection, namely that God is unjust if He wills someone to hell or if He does not will everyone to be saved. This is precisely the objection that Paul anticipates in his argument in Romans 9: 19-20: "You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?”

Actually this is NOT what Paul had in mind when he wrote the above.

Read the rest of Romans. Actually just read from Chapter 8.

This kind of argument echos the same words God said to Job when Job charged God with injustice: “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” (Job 38:4).

Actually it does not. The problem being tackled in Job is suffering here on earth, not predestination to hell. Completely different things.

God replies to Job so and thereby shows Job that “hey I made all these beauty, this creation, how can you think that suffering has the final say.”

We worry about justifying God. But that’s not our place. “Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!” (Romans 9: 14). We, as creatures, can’t put God on the judgment seat as if there were a standard of morality or goodness higher than God himself! The minute we allow ourselves to think that God is being unjust, then we implicitly invoke a standard of justice that is higher than God, thereby making INFINITE God relative to our FINITE concept of justice. That’s the point of Romans 9:19-20 and Job 38:4–to remind us that we’re finite and have to bow to mystery.

But we are not trying to justify God. We are trying to defend Him from your accusation that He is unjust, for the reasoning that you have employed show an unjust, unloving and unmerciful God. Not quite the God you would find in the Bible.

For this reason, there is no need to “get God off the hook.”

We are not trying to get God off the hook. That is a misapprehension on your part. What we are trying to show is that you are speaking erroneous about God because of a wrong philosophical bias on Calvins part.

Besides, we know that whoever goes to hell in fact freely chooses to do so.

Then how does that sit with your theory of double predestination.

God simply allows the reprobate to go their own way. It’s not as if those in hell are saying, “I really loved God and wanted to be saved, but he rejected me despite my earnest desire for salvation.” The reprobate will weep and gnash teeth, eternally hardened of heart against God.

But that is not the whole of it. Your claim is that God does not give the reprobate any chance at all. Your claim is that God gives some (the elect) the chance but not others.

Since God is the author of all their lives, then you end up with an unjust God.

Picture yourself as father (if you are married picture yourself and your wife/husband)

Let us suppose you determined that you will have 10 children. Let us suppose again that even before they were born you determined that 5 of them you will love, and five of them you will torture to death.

Would you classify yourself as being merciful, just, loving if you were to do that? Would deranged psychopath fit the bill better? And yet that is precisely who you have painted God.

 

[benedictus2]

Sometimes we think that if God desires to save anyone, then to be fair, he must desire to save everyone. But why?

Simple reason. As I have portrayed above because He is the author of all our lives. If He created only some and did not create others then fair enough, maybe He should only desire to save some.

But He created us all. Because of this fact, it makes Him unjust if He arbitrarily offers salvation to some but not to all.

Our sense of fairness derive from God’s own justice and yet you propose that man is more just than God.

By rights, God doesn’t have to save any of us,

Actually no. By rights God does have to save us because the Bible says God is love. He does not merely feel love, He is LOVE itself. He cannot hate any of us because He IS love. He cannot do anything other than LOVE us because that is His nature.

The reason Calvin cannot concieve of this is again because of his nominalist philosophy.

because, but for His Grace, we all would choose “our will be done,” rather than “thy will be done.” But the pattern of salvation is that out of the “many,” God chooses “some.”

Well no God chooses all by offering all a chance, it is up to us to accept what He is offering. We are all in the pit, God extends His hand, we decide whether we will put our hand in His.

This is the scandal of particularity–the idea that God is somehow unjust for doing what He wants with his own creation.

Oh no, He is not unjust for doing what He wants with His creation. It is your picture of Him that is unjust. We say that precisely because God is just that He gives every one a chance at salvation.

Isn’t that the point of the parable of the workers in the vineyard (see Matthew 20:1-16)–that God is sovereign?

More than that. The parable of the worker in the vineyard means, that no matter how late or how early one comes to know God, the reward is the same – heaven.

In fact, we do not have to imagine God “actively” damning people to hell. We can see Him “passively” choosing NOT to give saving grace to the reprobate.

But that is just the point, God is not “passive”. Calvin was heavily influenced by nominalism that is why he came up with this ridiculous notion.

But as Calvin pointed out, "those whom God passes over, he condemns;

And Calvin is dead wrong.

and this he does for no other reason than that he will to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children." (Institutes 3, 23, 1).

Wherefore Calvin presents a God who is a monster, a psychopath. Refer to my analogy above.

Calvin had the GUTS to draw out the logical inference from unconditional election.

No Calvin bought heavily into nominalism and this coloured his perception of God and led him to misread and thereby misinterpret scripture.

 

[jericho777]

My point is that you provided scripture that does not say what you think it says.

Maybe you can answer the questions I raised.

The bible says that many will be lost and only a few will find salvation. Is this what you are refering to?

 

[jericho777]

Interesting thread.

That gets preached by visitors from time to time, and the preacher never gets invited back. The theme is of acquiring an ace condo in a nice suburb of Heaven, within easy commuting distance of God, while those that don’t do good works live in an inner-city slum. Really.

What the…??? Oh, and tithing is a great way to get you a swimming pool. lol

I suspect that her particular slant on predestination comes from the saying “It’s all about Him, not about us”. One interpretation is that we are protected from the wrath of the OT God by the cloak of Christ. Whatever the theology, the saying is meant to honor Jesus for His great sacrifice but she’s taken it to a whole new level.

Very good and humorous

 

[MarcoPolo]

If Gods foreknowledge Knows all our choices and actions from when we are born till the day we die. If he Knows all this. Our choices and actions are already mapped out in advance.

God only knows what free choices we will make. It’s like this. Let’s say you are the father of a 4 year old boy. You know your son likes M&Ms, and whenever you give him one, he eats it. You “know” he’s going to eat it, and yet he freely takes it every time. Now in human terms, your knowledge as a father is not absolute, because you don’t know infallibly that he will continue to take it every time. But if you were a father with perfect foreknowledge, you would know infallibly. Now just because there is a change in how perfect the father’s knowledge is, it doesn’t mean the child is choosing any less freely.