Tackling Predestination

[benedictus2]

 True Calvinists do not differ that much from the Thomistic and Augustinian views of Catholic soteriology.

This is not quite true. The Catholic Church does not have a definitive position on the how of predestination. The Catholic church holds that God predestines man to salvation but not to damnation.

I think the main difference lies in our doctrine of reprobation. Again, Dr. Sproul explained this well in his book. Most Christians, both Catholics and Protestants, do not have an accurate notion of reprobation. To be clear, God does not cause any person to reject Christ nor to sin. Our rejection of Christ is a result of our sinful nature (original sin). God does not make people sin.

Our sinful nature which has been conquered by Christ.

Reprobation is defined as ***“The sovereign act of God in sorrow, of choosing to pass over some, not giving them the grace needed for them to be regenerated, resulting in their ultimate rejection of Christ, thereby condemning themselves to eternal punishement in hell.” ***

So God actively chooses whom to condemn,

but because He knows they will have a sinful nature, the way He foreordains them is to simply let them be (He doesn’t need to do anything) - this is sometimes called “preterition.”

This is absolutely horrible and downright rubbish!!!

Think, think, think, **If this is the case then god is evil. Remember, He created them. **If he knew already before he created them that they will end up this way then that means that god created them for the sole purpose of condemning them to hell.

Is that really what you think God is like?

Can you really love a god who is like that? Can you love a person who gives birth to children just so he can torture and kill these children?

Remember, God is capable of changing that sinful nature by offering them grace. You are saying that god purposely withholds that grace so that they will be condemned. That is a psychopathic, evil, monster of a god. That is not the God you will find in the Bible. This just shows you how terribly corrupt Calvin’s theology is!

Picture this and I hope you read this slowly: This god thinks” Hmm I am thinking of creating Bengoshi, but if I do he will be born of a sinful nature and so with that kind of nature he will disobey me so at the end of his earthly life I will have to send him to hell. I can of course give him the grace through my son but no I will not do that. I will give that grace to Benedictus2 instead for no reason, just because I can. I will not give bengoshi the grace to make him turn to me so that I can cast him out to hell. Hmm, that sounds like a good plan. This god proceeds to create Bengoshi.

THAT is how evil the god in your mind is. You have just have not followed your doctrine to its logical conclusions.

If you were god could you do that? Could you as a parent plan to have children with the sole purpose of killing by subjecting them to extreme torture? You will probably answer no, yet you ascribe such a personality to God?

People who do not receive the effectual (irresistable) grace of God, cannot, due to their sinful nature,

And this evil god purposely and with malice withholds this grace!

This is a very sick doctrine. I don’t know how you can reconcile that with a God who died that our sins may be forgiven.

Yes your god suffers from MPD – a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

Calvin was sick to come up with this or just downright devoid of reason.

 

[paul_c]

True Calvinists do not differ that much from the Thomistic and Augustinian views of Catholic soteriology. I think the main difference lies in our doctrine of reprobation. Again, Dr. Sproul explained this well in his book.

Well, that difference is hugely fundamental.

Here’s a quick overview of the Augustinian teaching from the Catholic Encyclopedia:newadvent.org/cathen/02091a.htm
Now in the Divine decree, according to Augustine, and according to the Catholic Faith on this point, which has been formulated by him, the two elements pointed out above appear:

• The certain and gratuitous choice of the elect — God decreeing, indeed, to create the world and to give it such a series of graces with such a concatenation of circumstances as should bring about freely, but infallibly, such and such results (for example, the despair of Judas and the repentance of Peter), decides, at the same time, the name, the place, the number of the citizens of the future heavenly Jerusalem. The choice is immutable; the list closed. It is evident, indeed, that only those of whom God knows beforehand that they will wish to co-operate with the grace decreed by Him will be saved. It is a gratuitous choice, the gift of gifts, in virtue of which even our merits are a gratuitous benefit, a gift which precedes all our merits. No one, in fact, is able to merit this election. God could, among other possible worlds, have chosen one in which other series of graces would have brought about other results. He saw combinations in which Peter would have been impenitent and Judas converted. It is therefore prior to any merit of Peter, or any fault of Judas, that God decided to give them the graces which saved Peter and not Judas. God does not wish to give paradise gratuitously to any one; but He gives very gratuitously to Peter the graces with which He knows Peter will be saved. — Mysterious choice! Not that it interferes with liberty, but because to this question: Why did not God, seeing that another grace would have saved Judas, give it to him? Faith can only answer, with Augustine: O Mystery! O Altitudo! (De Spiritu et litterâ, xxxiv, n. 60).
• But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to.

As you can readily see, Augustine readily defends Man’s free will, while Calvin denies it.

 

[paul_c]

Most Christians, both Catholics and Protestants, do not have an accurate notion of reprobation. To be clear, God does not cause any person to reject Christ nor to sin. Our rejection of Christ is a result of our sinful nature (original sin). God does not make people sin. Reprobation is defined as "The sovereign act of God in sorrow, of choosing to pass over some, not giving them the grace needed for them to be regenerated, resulting in their ultimate rejection of Christ, thereby condemning themselves to eternal punishement in hell." So God actively chooses whom to condemn, but because He knows they will have a sinful nature, the way He foreordains them is to simply let them be (He doesn’t need to do anything) - this is sometimes called “preterition.” Therefore this foreordination to wrath is passive in nature (unlike God’s active predestination of His elect where He needs to overcome their sinful nature).

People who do not receive the effectual (irresistable) grace of God, cannot, due to their sinful nature, choose or even seek God. Reprobation is not a parallel of election as some think it is. The term “equal ultimacy” is sometimes used of the view that the two decrees are symmetrical: God works equally to keep the elect in heaven and the reprobate out of heaven. R. C. Sproul argues against this position on the basis that it implies God “actively intervenes to pen work sin” in the lives of the reprobate. This view is sometimes erroneously referred to as “double predestination”.

While you find Sproul’s description of reprobaton more palatable than Calvin’s, the fact remains that the differences are in the mechanism that God uses to damn certain individuals, not in the ultimate damning of the “reprobate” through no fault of their own. But let’s go through a very simple exercise that I think will highlight why both are in error. Does everym person have a conscience? If so, then you know that God is calling to them every minute of every day, leading them to himself with feelings of guilt and remorse when they sin and feelings of satisfaction when they do his will. And if this is true, then you know that God does not turn his back on any man as both Sproul and Calvin content, albiet in different ways.

I think, understood correctly, Catholics and Reformed (Calvinist) Protestants/Evangelicals should have no problem with the doctrine of predestination. Understood correctly, we can see that the Reformed position on this doctrine is very biblical.

Some people are specifically predestined to heaven. Of this point, there is no debate and this is biblical. The corrolary, that some are predestined to hell, is however, non-biblical and false. This is the error of Calvin propagated by Sproul with a slightly different twist. You will find no scriptural support for this error. In fact, you will find that it is clearly refuted: Jesus calls All men to himself. and in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus calls on us to love everyone, including our enemies. Would you expect God to do less than this?

 

[Pete_Holter]

Predestination

“God does reprobate some. …] Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. …] Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of condemnation on account of that sin” (, I, q. 23, a. 3, c.S. Th.).

“Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said that the reprobated cannot obtain grace, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above (Question 19, Article 3), that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt” (, I, q. 23, a. 3, ad 3S. Th.).

“[T]he predestination of some to eternal salvation presupposes, in the order of reason, that God wills their salvation; and to this belong… election… inasmuch as He wills this good to some in preference to others; since He reprobates some” (, I, q. 23, a. 4, c.S. Th.).

“The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. …] God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans 9:22-23): ‘What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory’ and (2 Timothy 2:20): ‘But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor.’ Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): ‘Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.’ …]This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice” (, I, q. 23, a. 5, ad 3S. Th.).

“[T]he number of the predestined is certain to God; not only by way of knowledge, but also by way of a principal pre-ordination. It is not exactly the same thing in the case of the number of the reprobate, who would seem to be pre-ordained by God for the good of the elect, in whose regard ‘all things work together unto good’ (Romans 8:28)” (, I, q. 23, a. 7, c.S. Th.).

“[T]hose who are saved are in the minority. In this especially, however, appears the mercy of God, that He has chosen some for that salvation, from which very many in accordance with the common course and tendency of nature fall short” (, I, q. 23, a. 7, ad 3S. Th.).

In Christ,
Pete

 

[Pete_Holter]

Aquinas on Predestination

“God does reprobate some. …] Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. …] Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin” (, I, q. 23, a. 3, c.S. Th.).

“Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said that the reprobated cannot obtain grace, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above (Question 19, Article 3), that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice. Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt” (, I, q. 23, a. 3, ad 3S. Th.).

“[T]he predestination of some to eternal salvation presupposes, in the order of reason, that God wills their salvation; and to this belong… election… inasmuch as He wills this good to some in preference to others; since He reprobates some” (, I, q. 23, a. 4, c.S. Th.).

“The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. …] God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans 9:22-23): ‘What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory’ and (2 Timothy 2:20): ‘But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor.’ Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): ‘Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.’ …]This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice” (, I, q. 23, a. 5, ad 3S. Th.).

“[T]he number of the predestined is certain to God; not only by way of knowledge, but also by way of a principal pre-ordination. It is not exactly the same thing in the case of the number of the reprobate, who would seem to be pre-ordained by God for the good of the elect, in whose regard ‘all things work together unto good’ (Romans 8:28)” (, I, q. 23, a. 7, c.S. Th.).

“[T]hose who are saved are in the minority. In this especially, however, appears the mercy of God, that He has chosen some for that salvation, from which very many in accordance with the common course and tendency of nature fall short” (, I, q. 23, a. 7, ad 3S. Th.).

“Thomas …] is rightly and deservedly esteemed the special bulwark and glory of the Catholic faith. …] [T]o… Thomas Aquinas comes the crowning testimony of Innocent VI: ‘His teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error’ ” (Pope Leo XIII, Aeterni Patris).

In Christ,
Pete

 

[paul_c]

Pete,
you are highlighting only the parts of Augustine and Aquinas which deal with predestination but don’t seem to recognize the companion parts of their arguments that recognize the free will of man. From the Catholic Encyclopedia on Thomism:
Most important of all, it must be clearly understood and remembered that the Thomistic system on predestination neither saves fewer nor sends to perdition more souls than any other system held by Catholic theologians. In regard to the number of the elect there is no unanimity on either side; this is not the question in dispute between the Molinists and the Thomists. The discussions, too often animated and needlessly sharp, turned on this point: How does it happen that, although God sincerely desires the salvation of all men, some are to be saved, and must thank God for whatever merits they may have amassed, whilst others will be lost, and will know that they themselves, and not God, are to be blamed? — The facts in the case are admitted by all Catholic theologians. The Thomists, appealing to the authority of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, defend a system which follows the admitted facts to their logical conclusions. The elect are saved by the grace of God, which operates on their wills efficaciously and infallibly without detriment to their liberty; and since God sincerely desires the salvation of all men, He is prepared to grant that same grace to others, if they do not, by a free act, render themselves unworthy of it. The faculty of placing obstacles to Divine grace is the unhappy faculty of sinning; and the existence of moral evil in the world is a problem to be solved by all, not by the Thomists alone. The fundamental difficulties in this mysterious question are the existence of evil and the non-salvation of some, be they few or be they many, under the rule of an omnipotent, all-wise, and all-merciful God, and they miss the point of the controversy who suppose that these difficulties exist only for the Thomists. The truth is known to lie somewhere between Calvinism and Jansenism on the one hand, and Semipelagianism on the other. The efforts made by theologians and the various explanations offered by Augustinians, Thomists, Molinists, and Congruists show how difficult of solution are the questions involved. Perhaps we shall never know, in this world, how a just and merciful God provides in some special manner for the elect and yet sincerely loves all men. The celebrated Congregatio de Auxiliis did not forever put an end to the controversies, and the question is not yet settled.

 

[Bengoshi]

This is not quite true. The Catholic Church does not have a definitive position on the how of predestination. The Catholic church holds that God predestines man to salvation but not to damnation.

Our sinful nature which has been conquered by Christ.

This is absolutely horrible and downright rubbish!!!!  :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Think, think, think, **If this is the case then god is evil. Remember, He created them. **If he knew already before he created them that they will end up this way then that means that god created them for the sole purpose of condemning them to hell.

Is that really what you think God is like?

Can you really love a god who is like that? Can you love a person who gives birth to children just so he can torture and kill these children?

Remember, God is capable of changing that sinful nature by offering them grace. You are saying that god purposely withholds that grace so that they will be condemned. That is a psychopathic, evil, monster of a god. That is not the God you will find in the Bible. This just shows you how terribly corrupt Calvin’s theology is!

Picture this and I hope you read this slowly: This god thinks” Hmm I am thinking of creating Bengoshi, but if I do he will be born of a sinful nature and so with that kind of nature he will disobey me so at the end of his earthly life I will have to send him to hell. I can of course give him the grace through my son but no I will not do that. I will give that grace to Benedictus2 instead for no reason, just because I can. I will not give bengoshi the grace to make him turn to me so that I can cast him out to hell. Hmm, that sounds like a good plan. This god proceeds to create Bengoshi.

THAT is how evil the god in your mind is. You have just have not followed your doctrine to its logical conclusions.

If you were god could you do that? Could you as a parent plan to have children with the sole purpose of killing by subjecting them to extreme torture? You will probably answer no, yet you ascribe such a personality to God?

And this evil god purposely and with malice withholds this grace!

This is a very sick doctrine. I don’t know how you can reconcile that with a God who died that our sins may be forgiven.

Yes your god suffers from MPD – a Jekyll and Hyde personality.

Calvin was sick to come up with this or just downright devoid of reason.

Relax! Try to sufficiently understand it first before you judge it as evil. You seem to forget that no person on earth deserves to go to heaven. That is a very basic fact due to our original sin! So it is just but right with God to punish all of us in hell! Remember that! “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). All of us have gon astray. Salvation is by grace, a gift! Hence, it is unearned and unmerited favor from God. We have no right to complain. Let’s say there are five of us at Starbucks having coffee. You are not my employees, just friends or relatives for example. Then I decided to treat two of you to a Venti Caramel Frapuccino. Did those whom I gave free coffee deserve it? Did they have a right to demand it from me? No! Because it is a gratuity from me. The other whom I did not treat have no right to complain because thay have to right to it in the first place! It’s the same thing with God. It’s but natural for man to have a difficulty with this doctrine because our nature wants us to be the ones in control. We want to be God just like Adam and Eve. But if we let God be God, then this makes a lot of sense.

Read Romans 9; Ephesians 1:4-14; and John 6:44 (the Greek word rendered as “draw” here is “elkusa”, which literally means to drag or compel as opposed to a mere wooing) Mediatate on them well.

 

[paul_c]

Relax! Try to sufficiently understand it first before you judge it as evil. You seem to forget that no person on earth deserves to go to heaven. That is a very basic fact due to our original sin! So it is just but right with God to punish all of us in hell! Remember that! “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). All of us have gon astray. Salvation is by grace, a gift! Hence, it is unearned and unmerited favor from God. We have no right to complain. Let’s say there are five of us at Starbucks having coffee. You are not my employees, just friends or relatives for example. Then I decided to treat two of you to a Venti Caramel Frapuccino. Did those whom I gave free coffee deserve it? Did they have a right to demand it from me? No! Because it is a gratuity from me. The other whom I did not treat have no right to complain because thay have to right to it in the first place! It’s the same thing with God. It’s but natural for man to have a difficulty with this doctrine because our nature wants us to be the ones in control. We want to be God just like Adam and Eve. But if we let God be God, then this makes a lot of sense.

Read Romans 9; Ephesians 1:4-14; and John 6:44 (the Greek word rendered as “draw” here is “elkusa”, which literally means to drag or compel as opposed to a mere wooing) Mediatate on them well.

Bengoshi, the Catholic view of grace is not about controlling our own destiny. It is about recognizing our responsibility to love and to follow Christ. No man can control God. But if we obey him, we can be saved.

And by the way, Calvinism is very dark. It has a hugely negative view of man that over emphasizes the effect of original sin and under represents the fact that man was made in the image of God and that everything God made is good. Calvinism is also a theology of waiting instead of doing. Nothing you do matters, all you can do is wait and see if you are one of the elect. How sad…

 

[Bengoshi]

While you find Sproul’s description of reprobaton more palatable than Calvin’s, the fact remains that the differences are in the mechanism that God uses to damn certain individuals, not in the ultimate damning of the “reprobate” through no fault of their own. But let’s go through a very simple exercise that I think will highlight why both are in error. Does everym person have a conscience? If so, then you know that God is calling to them every minute of every day, leading them to himself with feelings of guilt and remorse when they sin and feelings of satisfaction when they do his will. And if this is true, then you know that God does not turn his back on any man as both Sproul and Calvin content, albiet in different ways.

Not all men have consciences. As the Bible points out, some people’s hearts become callous to sin and are thus given over to their lustful desires by God. They are given over to Satan.

Some people are specifically predestined to heaven. Of this point, there is no debate and this is biblical. The corrolary, that some are predestined to hell, is however, non-biblical and false. This is the error of Calvin propagated by Sproul with a slightly different twist. You will find no scriptural support for this error. In fact, you will find that it is clearly refuted: Jesus calls All men to himself. and in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus calls on us to love everyone, including our enemies. Would you expect God to do less than this?

Please see my previous response to Benedictus2. In addition, let us take election to its most logical conclusion: If God predestines/elects some to salvation and there are only two possible ultimate desitinies for man, which is either heaven or hell, then it follows that those who have not been predestined to salvation/heaven will go to eternal damnation in hell. As I have mentioned earlier, God does not even need to do anything for those He did not elect. He just leaves them to be, to excercise their own free will according to their sinful nature. In doing so, God just lets them follow their own course to hell. Now, where is the violation of free will therein? There is none. We are only able to excercise and act on our wills if it is according to our nature. For those who have not been regenerated by God’s effectual grace, their nature is of the flesh (sinful/corrupt). So their ultimate and just end is eternal damnation in hell.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi, the Catholic view of grace is not about controlling our own destiny. It is about recognizing our responsibility to love and to follow Christ. No man can control God. But if we obey him, we can be saved.

And by the way, Calvinism is very dark. It has a hugely negative view of man that over emphasizes the effect of original sin and under represents the fact that man was made in the image of God and that everything God made is good. Calvinism is also a theology of waiting instead of doing. Nothing you do matters, all you can do is wait and see if you are one of the elect. How sad…

Yes, man is made in the image an likeness of God. However, when Adam sinned, that image was tainted by original sin. What do you mean with theology of waiting? Calvinist theology teaches that of course we have to do something as proof of our election. The assurance of salvation is also there of course, provided that a person perseveres in the Faith (or is preserved by God in the Faith) until the end.

 

[benedictus2]

 Relax! Try to sufficiently understand it first before you judge it as evil. You seem to forget that no person on earth deserves to go to heaven. That is a very basic fact due to our original sin! So it is just but right with God to punish all of us in hell! Remember that! "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

All of us have gon astray. Salvation is by grace, a gift!

Helloo!! you really are missing the point here big time.

Okay, we are all inclined to sin because of original sin.** But the thing you fail to get is this. Knowing that He will damn us, he still decides to create us. **

This is the one aspect of Calvinistic predestination that you completely fail to apprehend. He is the author of life sure. But knowing that the life that he will create he will condemn to hell why create that life at all? Would it not be merciful to just not create it?

Why not just create those people that he intended to predestine to salvation and leave uncreated those who will be sent to hell? That is the point.

I gave you an analogy above and you have not taken that into consideration. It is like you have these blinders on your eyes and all you see is what Calvin said without even thinking for yourself whether what he wrote is rational.

You’ve got to exercise your thinking capacity somehow and stop parroting Calvin.

Hence, it is unearned and unmerited favor from God. We have no right to complain.

True we do not have a right to complain because he is god. But is one hell of an evil god. He is actually worse than the devil because at least the devil did not choose to create the people that he will take to hell with him. That is the one major point that you seem to be unable to see.

Let’s say there are five of us at Starbucks having coffee. You are not my employees, just friends or relatives for example. Then I decided to treat two of you to a Venti Caramel Frapuccino. Did those whom I gave free coffee deserve it? Did they have a right to demand it from me? No! Because it is a gratuity from me. The other whom I did not treat have no right to complain because thay have to right to it in the first place! It’s the same thing with God. It’s but natural for man to have a difficulty with this doctrine because our nature wants us to be the ones in control. We want to be God just like Adam and Eve. But if we let God be God, then this makes a lot of sense.

Wrong analogy. It does not even come close to describing Calvinistic predestination.
Here is a more accurate depiction.

Say you are a parent and you decided to have 5 children. Now you know that they will all be born with this horrible deformity. The prognosis is not good. The diseases becomes so much worse because in the end they end up with horrible sores inside and outside their body, bleeding in all of their pores and incredible pain and fever rack their body.

You have this drink called Caramel Frapucino. Drinking this will heal them and change them completely so that they are able to live in joy with you.

However, even before they are born you have decided that to two of them you will give this drink but the other three will not get even a tiny sip of it.

THAT is a more applicable analogy of Calvin’s predestination.

Ask yourself if you can do that? If you answer yes you can do that then you are an evil psychopath. If you answer no, then you claim to be more loving and more merciful than your god.

Read Romans 9; Ephesians 1:4-14; and John 6:44 (the Greek word rendered as “draw” here is “elkusa”, which literally means to drag or compel as opposed to a mere wooing) Mediatate on them well.

And so what? If anything that just proves my point that God is passionate about our salvation.

Here’s Romans again for you.

Romans 5:20 But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,. **

If where there is sin, there is also grace then that means that God offers grace to everyone. And if God offers grace to everyone therefore he does not predestine anyone to hell.** **
**

 

[benedictus2]

Not all men have consciences. As the Bible points out, some people’s hearts become callous to sin and are thus given over to their lustful desires by God. They are given over to Satan.

Sorry but you’re wrong there. All men have consciences - that tiny voice of God that tells you to act according to His will. But some have drowned that voice.

It is like this. In the first instance God’s voice tells you to do the right thing. If you do the right thing, then the next time good and bad choice comes up again, choosing rightly will be a little bit easier. And so it goes. However, if in the first instance you chose evil, then sin gets a stronger hold on you such that choosing goodness the second time is harder.

This is how we habituate into either virtue or vice. Big sins start with small ones. And it is the same with virtue.

Please see my previous response to Benedictus2. In addition, let us take election to its most logical conclusion: If God predestines/elects some to salvation and there are only two possible ultimate desitinies for man, which is either heaven or hell, then it follows that those who have not been predestined to salvation/heaven will go to eternal damnation in hell.

No it does not. If God predestines some to salvation it does not mean that He predestines some to damnation because there is also a choice of predestining everyone to salvation. The choice is not mutually exclusive.
To understand predestination of some a little bit better think of spiritual warfare.

God is at war with Satan. God chooses some (the elect) to form the inner core of the military – the generals, lieutenants,etc. We are the foot soldiers. God chooses to give some this super abundance of grace because these will be the men and women who lead the fight and who will guide us foot soldiers in the battle.

He did not elect them so as to damn the rest but rather so that the elect will help us in the fight against Satan. Even from the beginning you see this. You see in the OT and NT God raising men and women who will preach His Word, preach the Gospel so that in turn this men and women will guide us back to Him and away from the snares of Satan.

s I have mentioned earlier, God does not even need to do anything for those He did not elect.

Yes He does because Love is His nature. God cannot do anything other than Love us all because He IS LOVE. This is one major fact, that is always missing from your explanation.

There is no way you can reconcile the kind of god you have have with the Loving God of the Bible. Any which way you present your case, you always end up with an evil psychopath for a god.

 

[paul_c]

Not all men have consciences. As the Bible points out, some people’s hearts become callous to sin and are thus given over to their lustful desires by God. They are given over to Satan.

All men have consciences - some men chose to ignore them. That is a huge difference. Note, your quote says they “BECOME” callous to sin. Just like there is a journey toward God for those that are to be saved, there is also a journey away from God for those who will be damned.

Please see my previous response to Benedictus2. In addition, let us take election to its most logical conclusion: If God predestines/elects some to salvation and there are only two possible ultimate desitinies for man, which is either heaven or hell, then it follows that those who have not been predestined to salvation/heaven will go to eternal damnation in hell. As I have mentioned earlier, God does not even need to do anything for those He did not elect. He just leaves them to be, to excercise their own free will according to their sinful nature. In doing so, God just lets them follow their own course to hell. Now, where is the violation of free will therein? There is none. We are only able to excercise and act on our wills if it is according to our nature. For those who have not been regenerated by God’s effectual grace, their nature is of the flesh (sinful/corrupt). So their ultimate and just end is eternal damnation in hell.

You aren’t considering all the possibilities.

There are a few people who God overtly calls to be Saints - like Mary, mother of God, to whom God sent the Archangel Gabriel.

And then there is everyone else, who are called through the normal means.

You can provide no proof, scriptural or otherwise, that God doesn’t call some men to himself. We are told explicitly in Scripture that Jesus died on the cross to call all men to himself. And as I’ve pointed out, God talks to everyone through their consciences. Sure, some men don’t listen and will be condemned of their own free will but God calls to us all.

Lets get to the practical aspects of all this. What should a man do? Should he lead a moral life, striving to be holy, or should he sit back and wait to see what God has pre-ordained for him?

 

[paul_c]

Yes, man is made in the image an likeness of God. However, when Adam sinned, that image was tainted by original sin. What do you mean with theology of waiting? Calvinist theology teaches that of course we have to do something as proof of our election. The assurance of salvation is also there of course, provided that a person perseveres in the Faith (or is preserved by God in the Faith) until the end.

Okay. So practically you actions don’t support your declared theology. Who do you need to prove your election to?

• To God? That’s would be silly in any theology because God knows men’s hearts and doesn’t need proof, right?.
• To others? Why would that be important? In Calvin’s theology, nothing you do will have an effect on your’s or others salvation because salvation is pre-ordained by God, right? So what is the point of proving your election?
• To yourself? Again, why would that matter? God’s view is the only one who counts in your theology

Its clear to me (if not to you yet) that in your heart of hearts you actually believe that your actions mean something in terms of salvation. This is because the truth can not be denied.

As for the statement about perseverance of the Saints, this only matters if your actions matter. If you are pre-ordained to go to heaven, regardless of your actions, then there is no perseverance required by definition.

Calvin’s theories of salvation are in error. They render all moral law superfluous because nothing you do matters if your salvation was determined prior to your birth. Can’t you see that?

 

[Pete_Holter]

Pete,
you are highlighting only the parts of Augustine and Aquinas which deal with predestination but don’t seem to recognize the companion parts of their arguments that recognize the free will of man.

Hi Paul C!

I am sincerely asking this: Why would I highlight free will? Bengoshi said:

Let me clarify some things. Calvinists do not reject human free will. I explained this in my previous post… Those who reject free will are usually called Hyper Calvinists, which in itself is already a misnomer because Calvin himself did not teach what these hyper-calvinists teach. In a nutshell, because God’s “Effectual Grace” placed that desire of God in the elect, the result is that the elect choose God out their own free will, without any coercion on God’s part. From the viewpoint of the elect, they chose God; from the viewpoint of God, He chose the elect.

It is important that we follow the advice of Augustine, in that if a schismatic or heretic “wish to come over to the Church, he is made sound in those points in which he was unsound and went astray; but where he was sound in union with the Church, he is not cured, but recognized, ─ lest in desiring to cure what is sound we should rather inflict a wound” (, Bk. 1, Ch. 8On Baptism, Against the Donatists).

We must be careful to “become all things to all people, that by all means [we] might save some” (1 Corinthians 9:22). To a Calvinist, become as much like a Calvinist as Catholic dogma allows!

Calvinists like to see things like this:

“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:

“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).

If you want to persuade Bengoshi to Catholicism, help him to embrace the fact that regeneration occurs when we are baptized in water and the Spirit. This is where the real difference lies, and mending this wound will lead to healing everywhere else. As it is, I see you and our sister Benedictus hurling your assaults against a position – as if directed towards Bengoshi – that he doesn’t even hold. My admonition to you both is that you ask more questions and make fewer assertions.

Helloo!! you really are missing the point here big time.

Okay, we are all inclined to sin because of original sin.** But the thing you fail to get is this. Knowing that He will [condemn] us, he still decides to create us. **

This is the one aspect of Calvinistic predestination that you completely fail to apprehend. He is the author of life sure. But knowing that the life that he will create he will condemn to hell why create that life at all? Would it not be merciful to just not create it?

Why not just create those people that he intended to predestine to salvation and leave uncreated those who will be sent to hell? That is the point.

I gave you an analogy above and you have not taken that into consideration. It is like you have these blinders on your eyes and all you see is what Calvin said without even thinking for yourself whether what he wrote is rational.

You’ve got to exercise your thinking capacity somehow and stop parroting Calvin.

True we do not have a right to complain because he is god. But is one **** of an evil god.

Are you a universalist, Benedictus? If not, then your post is just as much directed against yourself with the exception that you have God offering a grace to people that He knows will be ineffective. Also, please don’t use inflammatory language. It hurts our witness.

Peace to you my brother and sister!

Your brother in Christ,
Pete

 

[shaky]

This is the Arminian view. The Reformed view does not base God’s sovereign will on His foreknowledge of whether or not man will choose God. Foreknowledge is taken to mean that God “knows” the person him/herself in the same way that we know our parents, children or friends. The word “know” there indicates a relationship of intimacy, not in terms of knowing their future action or choices. However, this does not mean that God cannot se into our future, for indeed He can. Reformed theology, as taught by the Bible, merely teaches that God’s choice is not dependent on what man will choose in the future.

Hi Bengoshi

The Foreknowledge in the dictionary means Knowing the future. If somebody told me a bomb was going to explode in that building in 2 hours time. And it came to pass. That means i knew before it happened.
Either God knows what happens in the future. Or he has designed it to happen in the future.
Which is it??

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul C!

I am sincerely asking this: Why would I highlight free will? Bengoshi said:

It is important that we follow the advice of Augustine, in that if a schismatic or heretic “wish to come over to the Church, he is made sound in those points in which he was unsound and went astray; but where he was sound in union with the Church, he is not cured, but recognized, ─ lest in desiring to cure what is sound we should rather inflict a wound” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Bk. 1, Ch. 8).

We must be careful to “become all things to all people, that by all means [we] might save some” (1 Corinthians 9:22). To a Calvinist, become as much like a Calvinist as Catholic dogma allows!

Calvinists like to see things like this:

“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:

“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).

If you want to persuade Bengoshi to Catholicism, help him to embrace the fact that regeneration occurs when we are baptized in water and the Spirit. This is where the real difference lies, and mending this wound will lead to healing everywhere else. As it is, I see you and our sister Benedictus hurling your assaults against a position – as if directed towards Bengoshi – that he doesn’t even hold. My admonition to you both is that you ask more questions and make fewer assertions.

Peace to you my brother and sister!

I understand your point. You want to emphasize what is in common and de-emphasize where we disagree. There is some validity in what you say but you need to be careful not to misrepresent the positions of the Catholic saints that you are quoting so as not to make them sound like they were actually Calvinists. They weren’t, you know. Both Aquinas and Augustine recognized that men had free will and that there was indeed merit in Man striving to become holy. And remember, Bengoshi is not the only Calvinist reading this thread.

 

[Matorin]

Let me tell you, you will not convince anyone that their position is false by arguing and insulting them. You will change people’s minds instead through love and through prayer. They will know we are Christian by our deep theological arguments and mental gymnastics?
I encourage you guys to make sure you are speaking in love, not speaking because you want to be right or you want the other person to see things your way. Remember that there are actual people on the other side of the link, not just an abstract entity. Would you speak the same way to a friend who is sitting with you in a coffee shop? If not, please reconsider your tone and words.

 

[shaky]

shaky;6810536:

No. All man needs to be given and gets given is grace to do the will of God. God will not usurp our will because it is precisely by His willing that our will be free.

That is because you probably believe in total depravity. But reality proves that belief false. After the fall, man’s will has been compromised as there is now concupiscence, a strong inclination to sin. But with Christ, the grace to rise above that inclination is given. However that grace does not overpower us. That is why even with Christ, some will still find living a moral life very difficult. However, the more we follow Christ, the more we become transformed into His image, the easier it becomes to follow Him.

In Hebrew, the word hate does not mean hate as we mean it. It means to like less, meaning there is a preference. But God preference for Jacob does not mean that God condemned Esau automatically. God’s preference for Jacob is in accordance with His Divine plan to bring about the salvation of man.

I will reply to the rest of your post as I am very tired and it is very late.

Hi benedictus

So what you are saying once you are given grace you have the ability to will and act.
So at what point are you given this Grace. In other words are you given Grace before you can have faith. Or do you have to have faith first coming from you. Then God gives you the Grace???

As regards total depravity i don’t fully understand the meaning. I would have thought total depravity was committing every Sin in the book and you cant stop yourself doing every sin in the book.
But apparently what i am understanding you can have 1 small sin in you life and it is considered total depravity and we are a slave to that small Sin unrighteousness which every person thought was natural.
But when we are Given Grace it gives us the power to overcome in Time and we become a slave to rightousness.

Gods hate does not mean as we hate. So why did God destroy Esau and his children and all descendants.
I seem to see Gods hate is higher then any man can hate. Especially over a small sin that would not cause any man to hate. And Gods love is higher then any mans Love. Especially over a Big sin that would not cause any man to Love.

 

[shaky]

All men have consciences - some men chose to ignore them. That is a huge difference. Note, your quote says they “BECOME” callous to sin. Just like there is a journey toward God for those that are to be saved, there is also a journey away from God for those who will be damned.

You aren’t considering all the possibilities.

There are a few people who God overtly calls to be Saints - like Mary, mother of God, to whom God sent the Archangel Gabriel.

And then there is everyone else, who are called through the normal means.

You can provide no proof, scriptural or otherwise, that God doesn’t call some men to himself. We are told explicitly in Scripture that Jesus died on the cross to call all men to himself. And as I’ve pointed out, God talks to everyone through their consciences. Sure, some men don’t listen and will be condemned of their own free will but God calls to us all.

Lets get to the practical aspects of all this. What should a man do? Should he lead a moral life, striving to be holy, or should he sit back and wait to see what God has pre-ordained for him?

Hi Paul Predestination+ Foreknowledge

                            Knowing beforehand Beginning and End

With the foreknowledge of God before he created Lucifer God Knew he would rebel.
With the foreknowledge of God before he created Adam and Eve God Knew they would fall.
But still told them not to Eat the fruit or you will Die. The Fruit of Good and Evil. but God Knows Good and Evil.
God created man in his own Image and {LIKENESS}
But there is a difference. Adam and Eve did not Know Good and Evil {LIKE} God did know Good and Evil.
But after the fall. Adam and Eve Knew Good and Evil and became {LIKE} God Knowing Good and Evil
But God Knows Good and Evil and Lives. So why does man Know Good and Evil and Dies
Because God only does Good that is why he lives.So God wants man to do only Good and Live. Now God has fulfilled his purpose.
creating Man in his Own Image and {LIKENESS} Knowing Good and Evil but only doing Good and Lives.

Now you say the scriptures say salvation is for all men. calls all men. talks to all men. its for all men will be saved. What about all the babies that have died they have not been called. talked to. There have been plenty that have not even heard and died. It does not sound like all men to me.
How does God expect mankind to Know Good and Evil unless mankind experiences Good and evil in all its shape and form.
Somebody had to betray {Jesus Christ} Judas. Some people had to crucify {Jesus Christ}
Vessels of dishonor are here for the purpose of God to teach mankind about Evil. They are a advantage to vessels of mercy. by crucifying {Jesus Christ}. To bring salvation to the Gentles and making Good people vessels of honor to teach people all about Good.

With The foreknowledge of God he predestined vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy for his purpose to be fulfilled
With the foreknowledge of God who Predestined {Jesus Christ} who is God paid the penalty for the Sins of the whole world.

We have a SPIRIT. BODY. SOUL. There is a difference between SPIRIT and SOUL
Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so his SPIRIT will be saved on the day of salvation.
The salvation of the SOUL is a different matter altogether. It is to do with Reward.
If any mans works are burnt up he himself will be Saved. But only as if passed through fire
There is the least in the kingdom of God there is the Greatest in the kingdom of God.
If to 2 people served God for 50 years. with the same fitness and time on there hands and one has done twice as much as the other. In fairness they have to be rewarded differently
At what level and privileges do you want to spend in Eternity On the next new Earth.
And in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Dictionary!!

Foreknowledge= Is knowing something i going to happen before it happens.
Predestined = Decide in Advance what is going to happen.

THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH GOD

DECIDING TO CREATE PEOPLE AND KNOWING IN ADVANCE THEY WILL SPEND
FOREVER IN HELL

AND WE CAN’T QUESTION HIS SOVEREIGNTY

THERE IS NO FREE WILL FOR THOSE THAT ARE LOST OR WHO ARE SAVED…
BECAUSE OF FOREKNOWLEDGE AND PREDESTINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD ITS NOT FAIR

THERE IS A SCRIPTURE WHERE GOD DOES NOT CALL ALL MEN!!