Tackling Predestination

[Bengoshi]

You are saying this as if your point of view is somehow true. You have shown no evidence that there is a reprobate class that some are some how deprived of the chance to be saved by God. The scripture passage above that you say you have no problem with says clearly that " there is no partiality with God.

That part refers to God being impartial between Jews and Gentiles unlike in the OT. It just says that it doesn’t matter to Him now that Jesus has come. It doesn’t talk about God’s choice to save and reprobate some.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Greetings in the LORD, Benedictus and Shaky!

I have time to post a couple of quick responses…

I would like to ask you and every one else a question here.

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were in a state of grace, right? The fall is what caused man to be out of that state of grace.

Then how come they still disobeyed God when we say that the reason we are unable to obey God is because we are children of the fall?

If you’d like to read Augustine’s discussion on this, you can check out Chapters 26-38 of On Rebuke and Grace.

Hi pete holter

If we focus on Infants what this is saying here: God with his infallible foreknowledge predestines which infant to save and which infant to Condemn. Because if they would have lived a full life. One would have responded by free will to the grace of God. The other would Not have responded by free will to the grace of God for reasons only Known to God.

As for people being judged based on what they would have done, Augustine rejects this idea as so “abhorrent to the feelings of Christians, or even of human beings, that one is even ashamed to rebut it” (, Ch. 22; see also Ch. 31On the Gift of Perseverance). He argues against this idea in , Chapters 23 through 29On the Predestination of the Saints.

To both of you: Have a blessed day!

Your brother in the Lord,
Pete

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Question: I am somewhat overwhelmed by all of this, but here’s a question addressed to the Catholics psting here.

You mention that you guys believe in a single predestination…that is, people are predestined to Heaven, but not to Hell.

However, if you are not part of those predestined to Heaven, isn’t that tantamount to being predestined to Hell? If one is not in Heaven (I’m lumping Purgatory with Heaven because you’ll get to Heaven fom Purgatory), then where are they but Hell?

How is this different from people being predestined to Heaven or Hell?

 

[shaky]

Greetings in the LORD, Benedictus and Shaky!

I have time to post a couple of quick responses…

If you’d like to read Augustine’s discussion on this, you can check out Chapters 26-38 of On Rebuke and Grace.

As for people being judged based on what they would have done, Augustine rejects this idea as so “abhorrent to the feelings of Christians, or even of human beings, that one is even ashamed to rebut it” (On the Gift of Perseverance, Ch. 22; see also Ch. 31). He argues against this idea in On the Predestination of the Saints, Chapters 23 through 29.

To both of you: Have a blessed day!

Your brother in the Lord,
Pete

Hi pete holter.

Yes Augustine does say that Gods choice in not dependent on his Foreknowledge Knowing who would have Responded to his Grace. because this still gives sovereignty
to man over his salvation.
It seems it is purely down to God who he chooses. which seems beyond our ability to understand why.
Augustine is saying everything is a free gift from God. Grace, faith, will, works. sanctification and perseverance.
I have looked and Just found out that the Eastern Orthodox do not agree with Augustine on predestination.
So i will study for a while to see what they think about predestination.

 

[benedictus2]

Greetings in the LORD, Benedictus and Shaky!

I have time to post a couple of quick responses…

If you’d like to read Augustine’s discussion on this, you can check out Chapters 26-38 of On Rebuke and Grace.

St Augustine’s answer seems to be that Adam fell because they were not given the gift of perseverance.

The question then is why would God, who knew that this gift is needed for Adam not to fall withhold this grace? Without this grace Adam was sure to fall.

So we have his scenario. Adam had grace but not the grace of perseverance. By not having this there is already the preponderance t sin. Then on top of that God puts the serpent there to tempt them.

This explanation of Augustine’s means that God not only allowed the fall, he actually willed the fall by making the environment conducive to the fall.

So where is the justice then?

I suppose the standard answer here again is we cannot question God. But if we put on the table all the good attributes of God then we can indeed question this theory because this makes God an arbitrary and evil tyrant.

What happens with the solutions that have been put forward is that in trying to plug a leak they unplug another.

The way you illustrate it is like a father who sits there waiting to trip his children. As they stumble and fall, he says to some there, there and soothes their bruises. Then to the others he cracks the whip for stumbling.

How do we reconcile this theory with the God who died for us while we were sinners?

 

[benedictus2]

That part refers to God being impartial between Jews and Gentiles unlike in the OT. It just says that it doesn’t matter to Him now that Jesus has come. It doesn’t talk about God’s choice to save and reprobate some.

Impartial means impartial. If God does not make distinctions between Jews and Gentiles then God does not make distinctions full stop, because Jew and Gentle cover the entire human race. You are either a Jew or you are a Gentile.

 

[benedictus2]

Question: I am somewhat overwhelmed by all of this, but here’s a question addressed to the Catholics psting here.

You mention that you guys believe in a single predestination…that is, people are predestined to Heaven, but not to Hell.

However, if you are not part of those predestined to Heaven, isn’t that tantamount to being predestined to Hell? If one is not in Heaven (I’m lumping Purgatory with Heaven because you’ll get to Heaven fom Purgatory), then where are they but Hell?

How is this different from people being predestined to Heaven or Hell?

This is entirely my view.

I think when St Paul speaks of pre-destination, he speaks of those who have been chosen specifically by God for a certain purpose in the over-all economy of salvtion. Our Lady comes to mind and the apostles and the outstanding saints that we know of. I do not think however (and i may be wrong on this one) that the entire saved population are all predestined. Rather God predestined some because He has to start somewhere with regards executing His plan of salvation. We see this in the way he chose Israel. He could have approached it differently (made a general revelation to all) but He did not do that. He picked a nation that will be a light to the world.

Through those whom he has predestined, he will then bring the rest of the world.

He gives grace to everyone but not everyone will cooperate with that grace because not all grace are efficacious but grace is always sufficient.

Another way of understanding Predestination is if we go beyond time.

For God who is in the eternity, the race is already finished. He knows who made it to the finish line. So in a sense you could say that He knows the destinity of everyone, not because He rigged the game but because the game has been played out. I think this is what is mean by God’s foreknowledge.

We tend to think in terms of linear time but God is in the Eternal Now.

Another reason why I don’t think God predestines to damnation is precisely because of the text that most use to defend predestination.

Romans 8: 28-31

We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
**For those he foreknew **he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.
What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?If those God foreknew he also predestined, well did God not foreknow every single one of us because He made us all?

If God is the source of our very being, and if God is love and the reason for our creation is love, then does it not mean that God is for all of us?

 

[benedictus2]

Hi pete holter

If we focus on Infants what this is saying here: God with his infallible foreknowledge predestines which infant to save and which infant to Condemn. Because if they would have lived a full life. One would have responded by free will to the grace of God. The other would Not have responded by free will to the grace of God for reasons only Known to God.

The Ones that have Lived a full Life or even 1/2 a Life would have to accept things at Judgment being Judged According to there works.

But Infants that have had no concept of life or doing any works. How can this Go with the teachings of Judgement. Judged According to your works?

That is a very good point.

 

[Pete_Holter]

St Augustine’s answer seems to be that Adam fell because they were not given the gift of perseverance.

The question then is why would God, who knew that this gift is needed for Adam not to fall withhold this grace? Without this grace Adam was sure to fall.

So we have his scenario. Adam had grace but not the grace of perseverance. By not having this there is already the preponderance t sin. Then on top of that God puts the serpent there to tempt them.

This explanation of Augustine’s means that God not only allowed the fall, he actually willed the fall by making the environment conducive to the fall.

So where is the justice then?

I suppose the standard answer here again is we cannot question God. But if we put on the table all the good attributes of God then we can indeed question this theory because this makes God an arbitrary and evil tyrant.

What happens with the solutions that have been put forward is that in trying to plug a leak they unplug another.

The way you illustrate it is like a father who sits there waiting to trip his children. As they stumble and fall, he says to some there, there and soothes their bruises. Then to the others he cracks the whip for stumbling.

How do we reconcile this theory with the God who died for us while we were sinners?

Hello Benedictus!

“[Adam] did not need grace to receive good, because he had not yet lost it; but he needed the aid of grace to continue in it, and without this aid he could not do this at all; and he had received the ability if he would, but he had not the will for what he could; for if he had possessed it, he would have persevered. For he could persevere if he would; but that he would not was the result of free will, which at that time was in such wise free that he was capable of willing well and ill” ( Ch. 32On Rebuke and Grace).

In Christ,
Pete

 

[benedictus2]

As for people being judged based on what they would have done, Augustine rejects this idea as so “abhorrent to the feelings of Christians, or even of human beings, that one is even ashamed to rebut it” (On the Gift of Perseverance, Ch. 22; see also Ch. 31). He argues against this idea in On the Predestination of the Saints, Chapters 23 through 29.

To both of you: Have a blessed day!

Your brother in the Lord,
Pete

I think Shaky’s main point is this:

Shaky:

But Infants that have had no concept of life or doing any works. How can this Go with the teachings of Judgement. Judged According to your works?

If I get it correctly, I would put it another way. If you say that if we perservere in good works we are chosen then what about the infants who have nothing to show for in terms of works? How are they judged? What is the basis for their reprobation and election?

 

[Pete_Holter]

Hi pete holter.

Yes Augustine does say that Gods choice in not dependent on his Foreknowledge Knowing who would have Responded to his Grace. because this still gives sovereignty
to man over his salvation.
It seems it is purely down to God who he chooses. which seems beyond our ability to understand why.
Augustine is saying everything is a free gift from God. Grace, faith, will, works. sanctification and perseverance.
I have looked and Just found out that the Eastern Orthodox do not agree with Augustine on predestination.
So i will study for a while to see what they think about predestination.

Hi Shaky!

A good place to start for this would be John of Damascus, , Bk. 2, Chs. 29 & 30An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. Although, you might want to back up to Chapter 25 and begin from there.

In Christ,
Pete

 

[benedictus2]

Hello Benedictus!
“[Adam] did not need grace to receive good, because he had not yet lost it; but he needed the aid of grace to continue in it, and without this aid he could not do this at all; and he had received the ability if he would, but he had not the will for what he could; for if he had possessed it, he would have persevered. For he could persevere if he would; but that he would not was the result of free will, which at that time was in such wise free that he was capable of willing well and ill” (On Rebuke and Grace Ch. 32).In Christ,
Pete

But that is exactly what I meant when I said that he needed the gift/grace of perserverance to continue in this state of grace (pink highlight), then St Augustine says if Adam had willed it, he could have persevered (blue highlight).

How could have Adam willed it if the grace to will it was not given to him?

Don’t you think that Augustine seems to be contradicting himself here. First he says that grace is needed to persevere then he says Adam could have willed it.

Chapter 26 “that he had not perseverance, because he did not persevere in that goodness in which he was without sin;”

I would have thought that was stating the obvious unless perseverance in the blue highlight meant the “grace of perseverance”.

So my question remains unanswered.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi pete holter.

Yes Augustine does say that Gods choice in not dependent on his Foreknowledge Knowing who would have Responded to his Grace. because this still gives sovereignty
to man over his salvation.
It seems it is purely down to God who he chooses. which seems beyond our ability to understand why.
Augustine is saying everything is a free gift from God. Grace, faith, will, works. sanctification and perseverance.
I have looked and Just found out that the Eastern Orthodox do not agree with Augustine on predestination.
So i will study for a while to see what they think about predestination.

You might find this link helpful. Not necessarily as regards Eastern Orthodox teaching on predestination but it gives a fairly good overview on predestination both from the Calvinist and the Catholic position.

pontifications.wordpress.com/predestination/

I converted it to a word file so I can pint it and I ended up with 22 pages (12 point font). If you’d like to read this in this fomat, let me know and I will email it to you.

 

[dcastlen50]

You might find this link helpful. Not necessarily as regards Eastern Orthodox teaching on predestination but it gives a fairly good overview on predestination both from the Calvinist and the Catholic position.

pontifications.wordpress.com/predestination/

I converted it to a word file so I can pint it and I ended up with 22 pages (12 point font). If you’d like to read this in this fomat, let me know and I will email it to you.

**Benedictus2 Forgive me if I go off message, but here from the sight you just suggested is the last paragraph. It should be required that all memorize:

I do not fear the God who is Holy Trinity. I fear my own freedom to turn from this God, to hide myself in an impenetrable egotism and despair which will forever close me to the roar of his love. I fear that my self-will will ultimately triumph over my desire for the supreme and ultimate Good. I fear that I am becoming, have become, a person who declares to infinite Love, “My will, not thine, be done.” I fear also the purifying suffering that I must endure, both in this life and beyond, to free me from my bondage to self and the goods of this world. But I do not fear the God of Jesus Christ. I know that if God does truly exist, then at the moment of my death he will meet me as the Crucified, still bearing the marks of his sacrifice on his hands. Judge and Judged, Priest and Victim, absolver of sins and victor over death—to this Jesus I entrust my future; to his Father I commend my spirit. Amen
**

 

[Pete_Holter]

I think Shaky’s main point is this:

If I get it correctly, I would put it another way. If you say that if we perservere in good works we are chosen then what about the infants who have nothing to show for in terms of works? How are they judged? What is the basis for their reprobation and election?

I would not say that “if we persevere in good works we are chosen.” I would say that the elect are chosen in order to persevere in good works. Although all will be judged, the judgment of works will only take place for those who have had the opportunity for works.

Augustine answers this in the sections I provided. See also, , Bk. 2, Chs. 14-16Against Two Letters of the Pelagians.

Whether infant or adult, “what distinguishes a man from that clay of perdition which originated in Adam, so as to make of him a vessel unto honor not unto dishonor, is God alone” (Letter 214).

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete

 

[benedictus2]

**Benedictus2 Forgive me if I go off message, but here from the sight you just suggested is the last paragraph. It should be required that all memorize:

I do not fear the God who is Holy Trinity. I fear my own freedom to turn from this God, to hide myself in an impenetrable egotism and despair which will forever close me to the roar of his love. I fear that my self-will will ultimately triumph over my desire for the supreme and ultimate Good. I fear that I am becoming, have become, a person who declares to infinite Love, “My will, not thine, be done.” I fear also the purifying suffering that I must endure, both in this life and beyond, to free me from my bondage to self and the goods of this world. But I do not fear the God of Jesus Christ. I know that if God does truly exist, then at the moment of my death he will meet me as the Crucified, still bearing the marks of his sacrifice on his hands. Judge and Judged, Priest and Victim, absolver of sins and victor over death—to this Jesus I entrust my future; to his Father I commend my spirit. Amen
**

Yes! Isn’t that truly beautiful?:heaven:

And this one from the Council of Orange which I think says perfectly what I have been saying over and over again (and I feel I am almost blue in the face ) that God loves us into goodness.
**Canon 25**. Concerning the love with which we love God. It is wholly a gift of God to love God. He who loves, even though he is not loved, allowed himself to be loved. **We are loved, even when we displease him, so that we might have means to please him.** **For the Spirit, whom we love with the Father and the Son, has poured into our hearts the love of the Father and the Son** (Rom. 5:5).

 

[benedictus2]

I would not say that “if we persevere in good works we are chosen.” I would say that the elect are chosen in order to persevere in good works. Although all will be judged, the judgment of works will only take place for those who have had the opportunity for works.

But that does not make sense for it seems you are saying that we are created for works. Therefore the reason for our being is to persevere in good works?

If we are judged according to our works and perseverance in good works is only possible because of the grace of perseverance which alone God can give, then God has willed from the beginning the damnation of some.

That is not Catholic teaching.

Augustine answers this in the sections I provided. See also, Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, Bk. 2, Chs. 14-16.

Whether infant or adult, “what distinguishes a man from that clay of perdition which originated in Adam, so as to make of him a vessel unto honor not unto dishonor, is God alone” (Letter 214).

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete

But again, that does not answer Shaky’s question. If we are judged according to works and infants have no works to speak of how are they judged? As infants, have they been made a vessel unto honour or have they been made into vessels of dishonour?

 

[benedictus2]

**Benedictus2 Forgive me if I go off message, but here from the sight you just suggested is the last paragraph. It should be required that all memorize:

I do not fear the God who is Holy Trinity. I fear my own freedom to turn from this God, to hide myself in an impenetrable egotism and despair which will forever close me to the roar of his love. I fear that my self-will will ultimately triumph over my desire for the supreme and ultimate Good. I fear that I am becoming, have become, a person who declares to infinite Love, “My will, not thine, be done.” I** fear also the purifying suffering that I must endure, both in this life and beyond, to free me from my bondage to self and the goods of this world. But I do not fear the God of Jesus Christ. I know that if God does truly exist, then at the moment of my death he will meet me as the Crucified, still bearing the marks of his sacrifice on his hands. Judge and Judged, Priest and Victim, absolver of sins and victor over death—to this Jesus I entrust my future; to his Father I commend my spirit. Amen

I think too what this highlights is that surrender is what is being asked of us. And the grace to surrender is always given. Just enough (not overpowering) so that we can say Thy Will be done. And the more we say thy will be done, the more this desire in us grows to truly will the will of the Father.

The way God works with us was brought home to me when I went to the Osteopath.

I have a very stiff shoulder and the way the Osteopath healed me was like this.

He stretched my arms at a certain angle putting pressure to pull it back. Then he told me to push my arm against his. At first this was a little painful. And he held it that way for a while. After a few minutes, he relaxed his hold and then he stretched my arm a little bit furhter and told me again to push back against his hand. This continued on for quite a while with end result being the easing of the tension in my shoulder and neck.

I think God works with us in this manner as well. He stretches us then asks us to exert some muscle to aid what He is doing to us. Then he stretches us further and further until the stiffness in our wills are gone and we are completely pliant in His arms.

If we do not know what we are created for then this talk of predestination is really pointless.

We were created for love, for union with God, to be swallowed up in that love between the Father and the Son. This is what God had in mind when He created all us. Not damnation for some and election for others.

 

[Pete_Holter]

But that does not make sense for it seems you are saying that we are created for works. Therefore the reason for our being is to persevere in good works?

If we are judged according to our works and perseverance in good works is only possible because of the grace of perseverance which alone God can give, then God has willed from the beginning the damnation of some.

That is not Catholic teaching.

But again, that does not answer Shaky’s question. If we are judged according to works and infants have no works to speak of how are they judged? As infants, have they been made a vessel unto honour or have they been made into vessels of dishonour?

Hi Benedictus.

I am sorry, but you seem to constantly misunderstand and misrepresent what I and others say. I am sorry that I do not have the time to interact with you more. I encourage you to read The Predestination of the Saints and The Gift of Perseverance.

With the love of Christ,
Pete

 

[paul_c]

Pete,
You have obviously spent a lot of time and energy studying the great Saint Augustine. That is very laudable. Yet, in the end, I can’t help but think you misunderstand the subtlety of his teaching on predestination because you still seem to think that he supports double predestination (the pre-destination of some to hell). But you also acknowledge that the Catholic position is that all men have the opportunity to be saved. Now this would either mean that Augustine took a position contrary to Church teaching or that you misunderstand what Augustine really taught. Or perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying… Please clarify