Tackling Predestination

[paul_c]

Hold on a second-if Catholics believe in single predestination, that is, people are predestined to Heaven, but NOT that people are predestined to Hell, then what’s the difference?

If you’re not predestined to Heaven, you might as well be predestined to Hell, whether you say it or not, true?

I don’t get it.

Let me try to explain this.
God predestines a few people to heaven to lead the rest there by example. For instance, Mary was predestined to be the Mother of the Lord. Now Mary of course had free will and she could have chosen not to be the mother of the Lord, but she was also concieved without Original sin so he had no predisposition to chose otherwise. She was predestined to Heaven because she was made in a specific way for that purpose.

Now as for the rest of us, we are given suffiicient grace to be saved but not the superabundance of grace granted to a few like Mary. We therefore need to cooperate with that grace and through our positive thoughts and actions including the partaking of the sacraments, , acquire yet more grace and ultimately die and got o heaven. if however, we do no align our will with that of God and chose instead to turn from him in sin, we will be condemned to hell.

 

[Bengoshi]

How do you distinguish between God’s desire and God’s will? The two can conflict?

It is very much possible. God loves His creation so He desires/wants/wishes all to be saved. However, His justice and glory is still paramount because there is no higher good that God. His decision to pass over some should always be seen for the glory of God for His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Shaky,
I am back at CAF after a brief rest to recover from a divine blow that brought me to my senses. I have testified in the book sent to you, all about my conversion history. In it you can read that “predestination” is specifically and emphatically denied. Now, 7 years later I was decieved to see non-existent truth in “pre-destination” and was brought to my senses by divine intervention. Benedictus was the main instrument of God. The fall however has only made me stronger and humbler and has been a great blessing as the heavy load of pride fell too. Now I am busy getting rid of the left over roots of the chopped down cedar of Lebanon. Interestingly, you can also find in my book that God had warned me of hidden pride and to guard from being blotted out from the book of life. Which clearly suggests that one’s name can enter the book of life and later be deleted because of sin. Therefore the destructive false teaching called “predestination” stands demolished.

This is my true testimony.
Pitcharan

Wow! I am quite touched by that and relate very much to what you have written. I think we all suffer from pride (being children of Adam and Eve) but the first step to humility is to recognize the state we are in. I suffer greatly from this too and it is this knowledge that helped me to understand the great love and mercy that God has for me.

I think so long as we acknowledge our failings, then we remain grounded (humus, humility)

It is when we start thinking we are not proud that we can be sure that we are.

And if God could be so desirous of my salvation (I who am so rotten) how can He not love the rest of humanity in the same way.

Peace and Joy of Christ!

 

[benedictus2]

It is very much possible. God loves His creation so He desires/wants/wishes all to be saved. However, His justice and glory is still paramount because there is no higher good that God.

But the question being posed to you is how can God desire something and not will it?
As another poster asked,** if God desires it must be good. If it is good then why would he not will it? ** The only way He will not will anything is if it is bad. But how can God (who according to you is the highest good) desire something bad such that He is unable to will it?

His decision to pass over some should always be seen for the glory of God for His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

But this is just the whole point. This is a kind of theologizing that is not backed up by scripture or reason.

If His thoughts are higher than our thoughts then that means he is infinitely more loving, more just, more intelligent, more reasonable.

But what you have presented and what Sproul has presented is a god who is less loving, less just, less good, less intelligent and less reasonable than the human beings he has created.

At some point, one must look at scripture and exercise the rational faculty and then and only then can one come up with a good explanation of predestination.

We cannot make “But God’s thoughts are higher than ours’” as an excuse for a failure to explain a theology that beggars belief.

 

[benedictus2]

Hold on a second-if Catholics believe in single predestination, that is, people are predestined to Heaven, but NOT that people are predestined to Hell, then what’s the difference?

If you’re not predestined to Heaven, you might as well be predestined to Hell, whether you say it or not, true?

I don’t get it.

I think I answered that in a previous post which I quote here in part

This is entirely my view.

I think when St Paul speaks of pre-destination, he speaks of those who have been chosen specifically by God for a certain purpose in the over-all economy of salvation. Our Lady comes to mind and the apostles and the outstanding saints that we know of.

I do not think however (and i may be wrong on this one) that the entire saved population are all predestined. Rather God predestined some because He has to start somewhere with regards executing His plan of salvation. We see this in the way he chose Israel. He could have approached it differently (made a general revelation to all) but He did not do that. He picked a nation that will be a light to the world.

** Through those whom he has predestined, he will then bring the rest of the world. **
He gives grace to everyone but not everyone will cooperate with that grace because not all grace are efficacious but grace is always sufficient.

Another way of understanding Predestination is if we go beyond time.

For God who is in the eternity, the race is already finished. He knows who made it to the finish line. So in a sense you could say that He knows the destiny of everyone, not because He rigged the game but because the game has been played out. I think this is what is mean by God’s foreknowledge.

We tend to think in terms of linear time but God is in the Eternal Now.

 

[benedictus2]

Hold on a second-if Catholics believe in single predestination, that is, people are predestined to Heaven, but NOT that people are predestined to Hell, then what’s the difference?

If you’re not predestined to Heaven, you might as well be predestined to Hell, whether you say it or not, true?

I don’t get it.

Second reply.

The way that I would apply this to secular life would be to liken it to instances when there is a certain massive outbreak of an extremely virulent flu (like bird or swine flu).

The first thing the government does is to make sure that health care providers (doctors, nurses, chemists) and others who are involved in the running of a community (peace-keeping officers, etc) are the ones who get the first batches of any medicine or anti-viral injections. You could probably call them “the elect” because even before the outbreak, this is already part of the plan.

But it does not mean that the rest of the population are going to be denied care. It is precisely because these people (“the elect”) are vital to the “salvation” of the population because they will be at the forefront in the battle against the flu that they are “elected”. They are elected not for themselves but for the whole plan of salvation.

As I said before, “predestination” of the elect only makes sense if we posit that those who we say have been “predestined” to salvation are not necessarily the only ones who will be saved.

 

[Pitcharan]

Wow! I am quite touched by that and relate very much to what you have written. I think we all suffer from pride (being children of Adam and Eve) but the first step to humility is to recognize the state we are in. I suffer greatly from this too and it is this knowledge that helped me to understand the great love and mercy that God has for me.

I think so long as we acknowledge our failings, then we remain grounded (humus, humility)

It is when we start thinking we are not proud that we can be sure that we are.

And if God could be so desirous of my salvation (I who am so rotten) how can He not love the rest of humanity in the same way.

Peace and Joy of Christ!

Hi Benedictus! My reply is the verbatim repeat of what you wrote.
May God bless us all and keep us safe in the holy cup of His hands!

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi pitcharan

What i tend to find what happens to me: When i start thinking I Know everything about something: I usually end up knowing nothing.Sometimes It can be very hard to understand the truth about somethings.

Imagine the plight of all of us, if the letters of St. Paul had not been treated as canonical texts and made part of the Holy Bible.
Best regards
Pitcharan

 

[diggerdomer]

It is very much possible. God loves His creation so He desires/wants/wishes all to be saved. However, His justice and glory is still paramount because there is no higher good that God. His decision to pass over some should always be seen for the glory of God for His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

So…God’s will, or desire, may NOT be done, in the end?

 

[Pitcharan]

Second reply.

The way that I would apply this to secular life would be to liken it to instances when there is a certain massive outbreak of an extremely virulent flu (like bird or swine flu).

The first thing the government does is to make sure that health care providers (doctors, nurses, chemists) and others who are involved in the running of a community (peace-keeping officers, etc) are the ones who get the first batches of any medicine or anti-viral injections. You could probably call them “the elect” because even before the outbreak, this is already part of the plan.

But it does not mean that the rest of the population are going to be denied care. It is precisely because these people (“the elect”) are vital to the “salvation” of the population because they will be at the forefront in the battle against the flu that they are “elected”. They are elected not for themselves but for the whole plan of salvation.

As I said before, “predestination” of the elect only makes sense if we posit that those who we say have been “predestined” to salvation are not necessarily the only ones who will be saved.

I think we will find an answer if we look at the subject sans preconceived ideas. My thought is based on the fact that the tallest of humans like St. Paul and St. Louis of Granada, say things in a manner that on the one hand suggests something like pre-destination and on the other hand emphatically denies it in many words. Are we then, mis-reading their words? Or, is there a confusion from translation? Can we not then, arrive at the truth starting from scratch, after temporarily setting aside all that has been said about this. My ponderings led to these ideas:

• Destination means the final goal of the soul
• Pre-destination means, God made humans in His own image and likeness with this purpose: that they may finally share in His kingdom of eternal joy and glory.* Therefore, all humans are created for this final destination: to live with God eternally* Salvation is the process by which we are prepared to realise God’s plan for us. .
• Or more simply put, we are divinised in stages till we are fit for our destination* We can realise God’s plan for us only when we clearly choose to do so. It cannot be imposed.
• Even the most elect like Mary did exactly this. Chose freely between Good and Evil
• In my opinion, Mary being free from the effects of original sin is also by her free choice.
  In support of this view I offer the below quoted explanation of mine which was also posted earlier. Howvever, I emphasize that it is merely my view and No doctrine
• Let us take a look at the creatures other than humans, ie. Angels.They were not given a perishable body or subject to the kind of test that humans need to endure
• But their co-existence with God was purely on the basis of freely choosing Good over Evil. That is why Lucifer and his followers fell while Michael and Co. remained steadfast.
• If God has one plan for humans and another for angels, we simply have to accept it as perfect.
• To delve deep and imagine that God’s actions are contracdictory is the effect of dangerous deception that works in us in order to destroy us.
• We should decisively reject anything that tries to separate us from God’s love. If we don’t do it, then we will be choosing Evil over Good and will only have ourselves to blame in the end.

MY OWN VIEW ON HOW MARY IS IMMACULATE
God is infinitely just and fair and allows each one of us to choose freely between Good and Evil. This process of making the right choice is equally influenced by two opposites, viz., the flesh and the spirit. The ones who get it right the first time will get it right always. Though everyone is born with the stain of original sin, it can affect a person only after he or she makes the first choice wrongly, after being prompted by the flesh. Mother Mary got it right the first time and hence every time.

 

[Bengoshi]

So…God’s will, or desire, may NOT be done, in the end?

Imagine this:

(GOD) “I want to save everyone because I love them, but because I have a higher purpose to serve, which is my justice and glory, then I will pass over them and leave them to their own evil ways.”

 

[cynic]

The reductivist/Calvinist theory that God creates some (most?) people for hell, so that one side of his nature can be manifested is pretty brutal.

Think for a moment… close non-christian relatives in hell according to scripture… you have to be happy about that, or at least comfortable with it, because ultimately God is glorified in the process, which was the point all along. It’s just so hard to think that way.

 

[benedictus2]

Imagine this:

(GOD) “I want to save everyone because I love them, but because I have a higher purpose to serve, which is my justice and glory, then I will pass over them and leave them to their own evil ways.”

Once again, you have portrayed an evil, psychopathic God in that one simple sentence. And you do this all the time with your every post because the simple truth is this kind of theology is predestined to this kind of damnation.

How would passing over some serve God’s justice and glory?

Until you can make a good case for that then you have absolutely no leg to stand on.

As we have been saying over and over again and you keep failing to get, God is the one who made this people? What is just about punishing people who according to you " were born that way".

That would be like asking someone who was born blind to perform seeing tasks as adroitly as people with 20/20 vission.

This is the one absurd and totally insupportable assumption that you are making; that somehow an “unjust” predestination to hell serves justice.

You are putting this forth as if it is the truth but it is only an assumption that you make. You make this claim over and over again and have not been able to provide one iota of support.

What can be a more higher purpose than love which is the very nature of God Himself?

 

[benedictus2]

• Destination means the final goal of the soul
• Pre-destination means, God made humans in His own image and likeness with this purpose: that they may finally share in His kingdom of eternal joy and glory.
• Therefore, all humans are created for this final destination: to live with God eternally
• Salvation is the process by which we are prepared to realise God’s plan for us. .
• Or more simply put, we are divinised in stages till we are fit for our destination
• We can realise God’s plan for us only when we clearly choose to do so. It cannot be imposed.
• Even the most elect like Mary did exactly this. Chose freely between Good and Evil
• In my opinion, Mary being free from the effects of original sin is also by her free choice.
• We should decisively reject anything that tries to separate us from God’s love. If we don’t do it, then we will be choosing Evil over Good and will only have ourselves to blame in the end.

Very well put

We say that Mary is predestined because God has chosen her from all eternity to be the vessel by which the Son will become Incarnate. She is God’s masterpiece

And as St Paul said, nothing can separate us from God’s love. He loves us all with a passion, even to death. This is a love that does not make distinctions because true Love does not make distinctions.

However, we, by our own willing, can turn away from God’s love. But like the Hound of Heaven that He is, the faster we run away from Him the faster He runs after us.

I can’t remember who exactly said this but Fr Barron mentioned it in his book - ** In running away from the arms of the Father, we run right smack into the arms of the Son**.

 

[benedictus2]

I looked up the word predestination in a dictionary and understood the word. Since studying the doctrine of predestination over the Last 3 months, at times i have been feeling a bit disturbed by it. Some things i can get my head round it quickly and understand. But i must admit this is a proper head banger.

I think this whole problem of predestination started because some men took bits and pieces of scriptures and came up with conclusions that do not necessarily jive with the rest of scripture.

It is important that when we come up with explanations about scriptural passages that it makes sense of the whole of scripture.

I would say that the one doctrine that did the most damage is Sola Fide for it fits perfectly well with predestination.

If we are saved by faith and faith can only come from God then it stands to reason that since He allowed only some to have faith, that God has rejected the rest of humanity. Couple that with the doctrine that all grace is efficacious and the last nail is hammered on the coffin of common sense.

Once we put on reformed glasses then predestination makes sense.

But as we have shown, reformed theology is in dire need of reformation.

 

[paul_c]

Imagine this:

(GOD) “I want to save everyone because I love them, but because I have a higher purpose to serve, which is my justice and glory, then I will pass over them and leave them to their own evil ways.”

Imagine this:
(God). I want everyone to join me in heaven, but I will not force it on them because that is not love but coercion. Instead, I will give everyone a set of gifts: life, an innate desire to search for me, an internal conscience which will continually motivate people to do my will, the ability to reason and to choose, the teaching and examples of Jesus and the Saints and most importantly, the power of the Cross to open heaven. Then they can each decide for themselves whether they want to join me in heaven, their decision being manifested by their actions to either love me (God) and neighbor or not.

 

[dcastlen50]

Hi Shaky,
I am back at CAF after a brief rest to recover from a divine blow that brought me to my senses. I have testified in the book sent to you, all about my conversion history. In it you can read that “predestination” is specifically and emphatically denied. Now, 7 years later I was decieved to see non-existent truth in “pre-destination” and was brought to my senses by divine intervention. Benedictus was the main instrument of God. The fall however has only made me stronger and humbler and has been a great blessing as the heavy load of pride fell too. Now I am busy getting rid of the left over roots of the chopped down cedar of Lebanon. Interestingly, you can also find in my book that God had warned me of hidden pride and to guard from being blotted out from the book of life. Which clearly suggests that one’s name can enter the book of life and later be deleted because of sin. Therefore the destructive false teaching called “predestination” stands demolished.

This is my true testimony.
Pitcharan

Pitcharan, what is the name of your book? Or are you being metaphorical?
I really enjoy reading Benedictus’ response as well; God bless the both of you.

 

[Bengoshi]

Imagine this:
(God). I want everyone to join me in heaven, but I will not force it on them because that is not love but coercion. Instead, I will give everyone a set of gifts: life, an innate desire to search for me, an internal conscience which will continually motivate people to do my will, the ability to reason and to choose, the teaching and examples of Jesus and the Saints and most importantly, the power of the Cross to open heaven. Then they can each decide for themselves whether they want to join me in heaven, their decision being manifested by their actions to either love me (God) and neighbor or not.

There’s a certain problem with the absolute free will position.

Consider this:

If man has the absolute free will, apart from the influence of God’s effectual grace, to choose whatever his inclinations are, then it would follow that man ahs the power to frustrate God’s will. If that is the case, then God would no longer be sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then our prayers are for nought because we cannot be sure if God can really fulfil His will due to man’s disobedience.

To illustrate:

God wills that Israel be conquered by Babylon. However, because of absolute free will, the Babylonians choose to let Israel beand instead worship the One True God of Israel. Obviously, that is not God’s will. In that case, God’s will was frustrated by man’s will. Therefore, God’s isn’t sovereign after all, and that’s ascary thought indeed!

 

[paul_c]

There’s a certain problem with the absolute free will position.

Consider this:

If man has the absolute free will, apart from the influence of God’s effectual grace, to choose whatever his inclinations are, then it would follow that man ahs the power to frustrate God’s will. If that is the case, then God would no longer be sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then our prayers are for nought because we cannot be sure if God can really fulfil His will due to man’s disobedience.

To illustrate:

God wills that Israel be conquered by Babylon. However, because of absolute free will, the Babylonians choose to let Israel beand instead worship the One True God of Israel. Obviously, that is not God’s will. In that case, God’s will was frustrated by man’s will. Therefore, God’s isn’t sovereign after all, and that’s ascary thought indeed!

Man does not have absolute free will. He can’t will himself to be something he is not. He always has limitations. You can’t will yourself to fly, for instance. But man has the choice within those constraints to do good or evil.

Now as for you assertion that if man has free will, he could frustrate God, this is a huge underestimation of God. How could any man with a reach as limited as we have, frustrate the ominipotent, infinite God. Catholics believe that God knew what we would do before we do it and has plannned accordingly. We still have freedom of action, but what we do does not surpirse an omniscient God, who incidently lives outside of time.

Oh, and by the way, God’s will is for all to come to him, including the Babylonians and undoubtedly some of them did worship the one True God of Israel.

 

[benedictus2]

There’s a certain problem with the absolute free will position.

Consider this:

If man has the absolute free will, apart from the influence of God’s effectual grace, to choose whatever his inclinations are, then it would follow that man ahs the power to frustrate God’s will.

This is only a problem if you posit that somehow free will is of man’s own willing.

But that is not what it is, man’s free will is itself God’s will.

If God wills that there be no resistance to His will, then He would not have created man with free will.

God WILLED to give us the free exercise of our wills.

Analogy : Imagine an all powerful CEO who told said to his workers “decide how, when and where you want to work whatever you decide is fine with me”.

To have the freedom to decide what to do, when and where with their work time was the CEO’s own will. This “free choice” was given to them by the CEO.

God in His Wisdom knows that only free will can respond in love freely. Anything else is coercion - like the man who cries fowl and says he has been shotgunned into a marriage.

If that is the case, then God would no longer be sovereign.

Well no. God is still sovereign because in His sovereignty He allowed man sovereignty of their own will. If God had not given us free will we will not have free will.

One major impediment to an absolutely free exercise of our will is a lack of truth. This is why Christ came, to show us the Truth and the Truthful Way, that we may truly freely choose the Good.

Deep inside we are wired for the good, the true and the beautiful because we are all made in the image of God and thus wired for God.

If God is not sovereign, then our prayers are for nought because we cannot be sure if God can really fulfil His will due to man’s disobedience.

Actually, it is your reasoning that makes our prayer pointless. According to you God has already pre-ordained everything irrespective of our wills. If this is so then our prayers are indeed for nought because there is no point in asking him for anything because everything has already been decided, the game has been rigged from the start.

As I said to you before, according to your own reasoning, then god can very well give you a child that from the very beginning he has already determined will go to hell. So no matter how much you pray for this child, he will go to hell because that is already set in concrete even before he was born.

Predestination therefore makes prayer completely useless and no more than the cruel joke of a sick diety toying with his creation.

To illustrate:

God wills that Israel be conquered by Babylon. However, because of absolute free will, the Babylonians choose to let Israel beand instead worship the One True God of Israel. Obviously, that is not God’s will. In that case, God’s will was frustrated by man’s will. Therefore, God’s isn’t sovereign after all, and that’s ascary thought indeed!

This analogy is way off track and does not even address the question.

God wills Israel to be conquered by Babylon and how he knows this is because of His omniscience. He knows that the Babylonians are the kind of people that will want to conquer Israel.

Your kind of reasoning makes it look like god moved Judas to betray Jesus. If so then Judas could hardly be blamed for betraying Jesus since it was god who told him to betray Christ by over powering his will.