Tai Chi?

[Dori1]

I lstudied the art of Kosho Ryu for years. I began studying it as recommended therapy after I was raped. I will never forget the first thing my instructor (a 6th degree black belt master) said to me when I walked in to the dojo. “I will teach you a lot of movement and theory. The first thing, though is how to take a punch. The second is that, if you are smart, you’ll never have to throw one.” Those words and the philosophy of non-violence he enforced made it clear that martial arts are not synonomous with violence. However, there are, interwined with nearly all martial arts, many, sometimes hidden, spiritual traps that must be avoided. If these can be recognized and avoided, I don’t believe there is any intrinsic evil in learning the arts.

 

[chansomvia]

Dear Dori,

It is hearing from people like you that makes this forum a forum to exchange ideas and experiences. I thank you for sharing your personal experience. It is however worthwhile going into the comments column to hear views of people who learnt of the Baptist church closing down the tai chi exercises in their yard.

Some of the people practising tai chi are nearly crippled with athritis, some are recovering from strokes which have paralysed one side of their body, at no time did the thought of learning violent martial arts by the gentle swinging of their limbs enter their minds. Tai chi is not a religion nor does it try to entice people of other religions to be Buddhist or Taoists.

I will not enter a debate what is evil, this is asking how long a string is, but tai chi as practised by me and our fellow human beings of all faiths will not drive us into or out of our existing religion. The action taken by the Australian Baptist minister has driven more people away from “Christianity” than it will ever “save”.

Joe

 

[GottaKnow]

It is absolutely amazing to me how many Catholics are so full of fear when it comes to things that are slightly different".Wrong spiritual practices?"
The irony is that the church has openly admitted to adopting the spiritual practices of the pagans it converted as a means of easing their conversion. The very word “Catholic” means universal. Are not the spiritual exercises of Ignatius of Loyola an asceticism? How can one fall into “wrong spiritual practices”?The Church is rife with magic. You just don’t like the word because the Pagans use it, too. It is so full of mysticism and miracles that even other sects of Christianity call Catholics Pagans. (and not just followers of J.T.Chick!) The lines between Protestant Fundamentalism and Catholicism seem to be growing thinner and thinner. The Church used to be considered very liberal to many people with its support of human rights and compassion for others. Now it merely cloaks the fear it has inherited from the apostasy in piety.
Apparently, Padre Pio and some others have been forgotten. They may not have called it ‘chi’, but it is the same force. It translates as “pneuma” or “Spirit”. It is the breath of God which flows through every living creature. It is passed on through the breath and through the Laying on of Hands.
In Tia Chi one is merely utilizing this “Spirit” as a means of healing and certain exercises are for building it stronger. Like Prayer and fasting. (and self flagellation and sleep deprivation and the holding of certain positions for long periods of time- why,… that would be YOGA!:bigyikes: This means that many of our beloved Saints have fallen into “wrong spiritual practices”(oh, they might have even been,…dare I say it… VEGANS!:bigyikes:

You know… I don’t know why I expected this forum to be enlightening. Well, I guess it is.
I mean, I had no idea how many of my fellow Catholics were boorish, stuffy, fear-mongering hypocrites.(yes, I said that. Somebody had to.)

'Wrong spiritual practices".
ooh, boy. and “sheesh”

 

[YipYupYep]

You know… I don’t know why I expected this forum to be enlightening. Well, I guess it is.
I mean, I had no idea how many of my fellow Catholics were boorish, stuffy, fear-mongering hypocrites.(yes, I said that. Somebody had to

After a whole 15 posts you a real expert around here. Your insults are an indication of where your spirituality has taken you.

 

[GottaKnow]

After a whole 15 posts you a real expert around here. Your insults are an indication of where your spirituality has taken you.

Touche’!:blackeye:
I have been a little grumpy lately. I apologize.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Tai Chi= useless for self defence and insufficient for spiritual development.

Old people or those with limited mobility, sure, might be good to get them moving. So could Pilates.

But if you are practicing Tai Chi for spiritual gain you’re barking up the wrong tree. If you are practicing it for self defence then you are badly misled.

 

[GottaKnow]

Tai Chi= useless for self defence and insufficient for spiritual development.

Old people or those with limited mobility, sure, might be good to get them moving. So could Pilates.

But if you are practicing Tai Chi for spiritual gain you’re barking up the wrong tree. If you are practicing it for self defence then you are badly misled.

Each movement in Tai Chi has a logical combat application. If a correct posture cannot be used, the form is clearly incorrect.

Self-defense requires you to develop skills that are firm, persistent and are recalled as second nature or instinct. Raw talent and physical strength are less important in Tai Chi as this form of martial art requires yours entire mind/body to move simultaneously to achieve results. The movements should be effortlessness and tremendous.
If you are just interested in kicking butt then you would, of course, be interested in Tae Kwon Do or Karate or one of the more aggressive forms of Martial Arts.

Tai Chi/Kung Fu/Wushu are arts of self discipline designed to direct the aggressors force in such a way that that they essentially defeat themselves.

As for the Qi Gong aspect of Tai Chi, it is the gathering and manipulation of the God-given spark,… the pnuema,… the ruach,… the spirit,… all mystical saints with reports of healing and other certain miracles associated with them are /have utilized this same energy. It is the same energy passed through the laying on of hands and in some instances some authors have eluded to it as being the pearl of great price spoken of in the parable. I don’t necessarily think that is a good analogy myself. I think they get this because on of the metods of circulating the chi is called the dragons pearl.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Each movement in Tai Chi has a logical combat application. If a correct posture cannot be used, the form is clearly incorrect.

Self-defense requires you to develop skills that are firm, persistent and are recalled as second nature or instinct. Raw talent and physical strength are less important in Tai Chi as this form of martial art requires yours entire mind/body to move simultaneously to achieve results. The movements should be effortlessness and tremendous.
If you are just interested in kicking butt then you would, of course, be interested in Tae Kwon Do or Karate or one of the more aggressive forms of Martial Arts.

Tai Chi/Kung Fu/Wushu are arts of self discipline designed to direct the aggressors force in such a way that that they essentially defeat themselves.

As for the Qi Gong aspect of Tai Chi, it is the gathering and manipulation of the God-given spark,… the pnuema,… the ruach,… the spirit,… all mystical saints with reports of healing and other certain miracles associated with them are /have utilized this same energy. It is the same energy passed through the laying on of hands and in some instances some authors have eluded to it as being the pearl of great price spoken of in the parable. I don’t necessarily think that is a good analogy myself. I think they get this because on of the metods of circulating the chi is called the dragons pearl.

Please mate, not to sound egotistical but I am a martial arts instructor. I am well aware of the theory behind Tai Chi combat applications, however I am also all too aware of the reality, which is that Tai Chi, however much it might look like it has a practical combat application, does not, due to the fantasy nature of the training.

In the, as you call them, ‘‘more aggressive’’ forms of martial arts you have to use your mind too. It is not just about ‘‘kicking butt’’, incidentally in some schools of Karate and TKD there is little training in actual fighting either, making them as ineffective as Tai Chi.

Kung Fu is not a martial art, it translates loosely as ‘‘skill won by effort’’, and Wushu is not a martial art it is a Chinese term that means martial art. Both include a plethora of arts from Wing Chun to Hsing yi, Lau Gar to Tai jing pek war. So to try to lump them all together in an attempt to prove their superiority the way you have is not very conductive to the debate.

EDIT: Unless you mean contemporary Wushu, which as I’m sure you’re aware is nothing more than stage performance and is about as ‘‘martial’’ as the on stage fencing practiced by Shakespearean actors.

‘‘Gathering of God given energy’’, I have already discussed this in numerous Yoga, Tai Chi, Aikido, Reiki etc threads but would be glad to give it another go if you want to hear it.

 

[GottaKnow]

Please mate, not to sound egotistical but I am a martial arts instructor. I am well aware of the theory behind Tai Chi combat applications, however I am also all too aware of the reality, which is that Tai Chi, however much it might look like it has a practical combat application, does not, due to the fantasy nature of the training.

yes, I know. I looked at your profile before I posted this. So, I expected such a response.I am no instructor. But, I have been studying since I was 8 yrs old. My Dad forced me to go because I was (as Sifu called me) "Little Armadillo.I am 46, now.

In the, as you call them, ‘‘more aggressive’’ forms of martial arts you have to use your mind too. It is not just about ‘‘kicking butt’’, incidentally in some schools of Karate and TKD there is little training in actual fighting either, making them as ineffective as Tai Chi.

I haven’t been to a dojou (I was told that meant “temple”) in about 20 yrs. So, I don’t know what’s going on nowadays. But, when I was growing up you had to fight if you wanted to advance and get belted. And I merely called them ‘aggressive’ because there are first strike moves. There are a few in kung fu (which I was taught meant ‘working’ or ‘mastering’ the body)but, mainly it is a defensive fighting form.I in no way was trying to imply that one was superior to the other.

Kung Fu is not a martial art, it translates loosely as ‘‘skill won by effort’’, and Wushu is not a martial art it is a Chinese term that means martial art. Both include a plethora of arts from Wing Chun to Hsing yi, Lau Gar to Tai jing pek war. So to try to lump them all together in an attempt to prove their superiority the way you have is not very conductive to the debate.

I was taught that all forms of oriental martial arts evolved from yoga exercises used by the Buddhist Shaolin monks which evolved into fighting techniques to defend themselves from bandits,and eventually spread all over china and eventually to the outerlying areas of Asia

EDIT: Unless you mean contemporary Wushu, which as I’m sure you’re aware is nothing more than stage performance and is about as ‘‘martial’’ as the on stage fencing practiced by Shakespearean actors.

Yeah. I know. But, thanks to Jet Li and Jackie Chan(of whom I am a big fan of both), the terms “Kung Fu” and “Wushu” (which I was taught was the chinese word for “boxing” or fighting)are pretty much interchangeable on the street when I hear the kids talking…

‘‘Gathering of God given energy’’, I have already discussed this in numerous Yoga, Tai Chi, Aikido, Reiki etc threads but would be glad to give it another go if you want to hear it.

I suppose I could hear you out. Or you could just link me to the significant posts if you like. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it. When I mention it at confession I don’t get any negative feedback.Actually, I get encouragement.He has even asked me what it is like!

 

[diggerdomer]

Are Tai Chi and Roman Catholicism compatible?

Yes.

Anything else?

 

[LDNCatholic]

yes, I know. I looked at your profile before I posted this. So, I expected such a response.I am no instructor. But, I have been studying since I was 8 yrs old. My Dad forced me to go because I was (as Sifu called me) "Little Armadillo.I am 46, now.

Fair enough. Which styles have you practiced?

I haven’t been to a dojou (I was told that meant “temple”) in about 20 yrs. So, I don’t know what’s going on nowadays. But, when I was growing up you had to fight if you wanted to advance and get belted. And I merely called them ‘aggressive’ because there are first strike moves. There are a few in kung fu (which I was taught meant ‘working’ or ‘mastering’ the body)but, mainly it is a defensive fighting form.I in no way was trying to imply that one was superior to the other.

Dojo means ‘‘house of discipline’’ or ‘‘place of [practicing] the way’’ I am not overly familiar with the Japanese language so I do not know if that can be applied to a temple.

Most martial arts schools today teach very little about self defence and are more about ‘‘customer satistfaction’’, i.e they treat their students as consumers teaching them only what will keep them coming back and paying up, leaving out any of the useful stuff because of the hard work and possible pain it would take to acquire such skills.

I was taught that all forms of oriental martial arts evolved from yoga exercises used by the Buddhist Shaolin monks which evolved into fighting techniques to defend themselves from bandits,and eventually spread all over china and eventually to the outerlying areas of Asia

Ah yes, the Bodhidharma/Damo myth. Martial arts were practiced in China over 1000 years before the founding of the Shaolin monastery. All countries had rudimentary forms of fist fighting, wrestling and stick fighting which would eventually evolve into martial arts. I do not like the way the word martial arts is usually applied only to the fighting arts of East Asia, as if the rest of the world was just blindly swinging clubs until martial arts was founded in one location. I think it is much more likely that as fighting is pretty much a universal phenomena, the development of combat tactics, personal or grouped, was also a universal phenomena.

Yeah. I know. But, thanks to Jet Li and Jackie Chan(of whom I am a big fan of both), the terms “Kung Fu” and “Wushu” (which I was taught was the chinese word for “boxing” or fighting)are pretty much interchangeable on the street when I hear the kids talking…

Again, I am no linguist but I think the most appropriate word for ‘‘boxing’’ would be ‘‘Chuan fa’’-’‘Fist Law’’*, as when a martial art has the name ‘’… boxing’’ they finish the name with chuan (fist) (for example Tai Chi Chuan=Grand Ultimate Fist/Grand Ultimate Boxing).

*You can find examples of this word in Japanese (Kenpo=Fist Law) and in Korean (Gwonbeop), it would seem to me that chuan fa is the most appropriate term for the various Chinese martial arts.

I suppose I could hear you out. Or you could just link me to the significant posts if you like. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it. When I mention it at confession I don’t get any negative feedback.Actually, I get encouragement.He has even asked me what it is like!

Great, I will dig out the previous responses and post them here.

God bless

Peter

 

[LDNCatholic]

This thread is not mine but does contain a statement from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on Reiki.

The ‘‘Ki’’ in Reiki, is the same as the Ki/Chi/Qi/Prana/Kundalini used in some forms of martial arts and yogic exercise.

 

[GottaKnow]

This thread is not mine but does contain a statement from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on Reiki.

The ‘‘Ki’’ in Reiki, is the same as the Ki/Chi/Qi/Prana/Kundalini used in some forms of martial arts and yogic exercise.

Yes it is. And this makes it bad because…?
From the link you sent me to…

1. The Church recognizes two kinds of healing: healing by divine grace and healing that utilizes the powers of nature… the Church has never considered a plea for divine healing, which comes as a gift from God, to exclude recourse to natural means of healing through the practice of medicine… Recourse to natural means of healing therefore remains entirely appropriate, as these are at human disposal. In fact, Christian charity demands that we not neglect natural means of healing people who are ill.

Then in the second post continued it goes on to say that this is not reconcilable because you are not asking God to do the healing.

This is just retarded doublespeak.
Does the doctor ask God for permission to give a shot or prescribe therapy or medicine?
I think that somehow the clowns that wrote this drivel were just jealous because it was a Buddhist text and they were afraid it would cause people to leave the faith. That makes it a political move. How boorish. Definitely an abuse of office. Then again, it took a long time to accept that the earth was not flat and rotated around the sun, too. And that evolution is real. And some folks are having a hard time accepting global warming.(which the Vatican does recognize).
They offer no proof. Just polemics and conjecture. I know they are more learned than me. But, I see something that should be embarrassing to Catholics in this. Again, I say that the lines between protestant fundamentalism and Catholicism are growing thinner everyday.I reject this outright.

 

[GottaKnow]

Fair enough. Which styles have you practiced?

San soo, wing chun,All 5 animals(mantis,crane,tiger,dragon, snake) and the ever popular and fun workout,…"Drunken monkey Also Tai Chi Chuan and Chi Kung ( it uses the natural force which those bishops deny)I also subscribe to the JKD theory of take what is good and disregard the useless. But, I like to practice my forms and stuff, as it just keeps me feeling young.At the risk of sounding arrogant or concieted, I am much better shape physically than most men my age. But, I am also a strict vegetarian.(i.e. Vegan).

Dojo means ‘‘house of discipline’’ or ‘‘place of [practicing] the way’’ I am not overly familiar with the Japanese language so I do not know if that can be applied to a temple

I am pretty sure it can. Then again I subscribe to the Bodhidharma/Damo myth, as you call it.By this definition, aescetics is a form of discipline, and early Christianity was simply known as “The Way”.

Most martial arts schools today teach very little about self defence and are more about ‘‘customer satistfaction’’, i.e they treat their students as consumers teaching them only what will keep them coming back and paying up, leaving out any of the useful stuff because of the hard work and possible pain it would take to acquire such skills.

That is the American way. Everybody would rather play Yu-Gi-O and watch Jet Li, anyway.

Ah yes, the Bodhidharma/Damo myth. Martial arts were practiced in China over 1000 years before the founding of the Shaolin monastery. All countries had rudimentary forms of fist fighting, wrestling and stick fighting which would eventually evolve into martial arts. I do not like the way the word martial arts is usually applied only to the fighting arts of East Asia, as if the rest of the world was just blindly swinging clubs until martial arts was founded in one location. I think it is much more likely that as fighting is pretty much a universal phenomena, the development of combat tactics, personal or grouped, was also a universal phenomena.

I agree with this statement to a degree. I don’t think that the Shaolin styles were ever considered to be the exclusive martial arts. Just the ones that all the others adapted and evolved from.

Again, I am no linguist but I think the most appropriate word for ‘‘boxing’’ would be ‘‘Chuan fa’’-’‘Fist Law’’*, as when a martial art has the name ‘’… boxing’’ they finish the name with chuan (fist) (for example Tai Chi Chuan=Grand Ultimate Fist/Grand Ultimate Boxing).

*You can find examples of this word in Japanese (Kenpo=Fist Law) and in Korean (Gwonbeop), it would seem to me that chuan fa is the most appropriate term for the various Chinese martial arts.

Peter

Well, potayto-potahto.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Yes it is. And this makes it bad because…?
From the link you sent me to…
Then in the second post continued it goes on to say that this is not reconcilable because you are not asking God to do the healing.

This is just retarded doublespeak.
Does the doctor ask God for permission to give a shot or prescribe therapy or medicine?
I think that somehow the clowns that wrote this drivel were just jealous because it was a Buddhist text and they were afraid it would cause people to leave the faith. That makes it a political move. How boorish. Definitely an abuse of office. Then again, it took a long time to accept that the earth was not flat and rotated around the sun, too. And that evolution is real. And some folks are having a hard time accepting global warming.(which the Vatican does recognize).
They offer no proof. Just polemics and conjecture. I know they are more learned than me. But, I see something that should be embarrassing to Catholics in this. Again, I say that the lines between protestant fundamentalism and Catholicism are growing thinner everyday.I reject this outright.

Actually very few people ascribed to the ‘‘flat Earth’’ theory. They thought it was ‘‘pear shaped’’

You admit they are more learned than you but you call their decision ‘‘retarded’’ (horrible, disrespectful use of the word by the way, in regard to both the bishops and the mentally disabled)

The Church itself tells us to avoid supernatural means of bending the universe to our will. It is as simple as that.

You either believe what the Church teaches or you do not.

I will bring my own points to this thread at a later time but you seem far too hostile to accept them on their own merit at the present time.

 

[LDNCatholic]

That is the American way. Everybody would rather play Yu-Gi-O and watch Jet Li, anyway.

Sadly this ‘‘way’’ has spread outside the US borders.

I agree with this statement to a degree. I don’t think that the Shaolin styles were ever considered to be the exclusive martial arts. Just the ones that all the others adapted and evolved from.

Fair enough, but even that is not true. Martial arts were present in every culture long before Shaolin was even thought up.

 

[LionTamer]

Just for a different point of view, there is nothing at all supernatural about the “power” of aikido or any other martial art. It’s all a matter of raw mechanics. What is described as one’s “center,” through which this “force” flows is, in fact, the center of mass of the human body. When the full mass of a body is involved (i.e. translational or rotational motion through or about the center of mass), rather than only the mass of one’s arm or leg, one finds larger (and thus more effective) physical consequences.

Any spiritual aspect of any martial art is a state of mind of the person involved. The actual physical practice of any martial art is reducible to fundamental physics.

 

[YipYupYep]

Back to Tai Chi. The Chi is the problem, maybe. There are different types of Chi, all of an invisible, if you will, of a spiritual make up.

Tai Chi forms the human body like an antenna channeling the Chi inside. If you don’t attract the Chi, your just wasting your time. Your better off at the gym doing cardio and lifting weights.

I don’t have a problem with it.