Take a look at this list of flip flops

[ExpectAMiracle2]

If the catholic church has the corner on the truth - then why so many changes in doctrine? I’m sure some on this list can be dismissed or there is a good excuse but I am curious about one other thing I surfed across today - is it true that the Catholic church taught all non-Catholic were going to hell prior to the Vatican 2 in 1965? If so, what scripture is that based on and if papal infalibility is true then why the change in thought process after almost 2000 years? It appears to me that if we visited those in the apostolic times the “church” you tout as “universal” would be quite different than the “universal” church today. Thanks in advance for your responses. God Bless, read the Word and Expect A Miracle.

Pre-Roman Catholic False teachings

250 AD
North Africa region is first to practice infant baptism and reduced the age of baptism from minors to all newborns. This is opposed by other regions.

300 AD
Prayers for the dead

325 AD
At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.

325 AD
The date for Easter was set.

379 AD
Praying to Mary & Saints. (prayers of Ephraim Syrus)

389 AD
Mariolatry begins with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.

400 AD
Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved, (Augustine XII.9)

416 AD
Infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants (Council Of Mela, Austin was the principal director)

430 AD
Exhalation of Virgin Mary: “Mother of God” first applied by the Council of Ephesus

519 AD
Lent

526 AD
Extreme Unction

593 AD
The Doctrine of Purgatory popularized from the Apocrypha by Gregory the Great

608 AD
Pope Boniface IV. turns the Pantheon in Rome into a temple of Mary ad martyres: the pagan Olympus into a Christian heaven of gods.

787 AD
Worship of icons and statue approved (2nd council of Nicea)

787 AD
Rome (Latin) and Constantinople (Greek) part ways and begin the drift towards complete split, resulting in two denominations emerging in 1054 AD.

995 AD
Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV

998 AD
Good Friday: fish only and the eating-red meat forbidden

1009 AD
Holy water

1022 AD
Penance

1054 AD
Roman Catholic church breaks away from the Orthodox church

1079 AD
Celibacy enforced for priests, bishops, presbyters (Pope Gregory VII)

1090 AD
Rosary beads: invented by Peter the Hermit

1190 AD
Sale of Indulgences or “tickets to sin” (punishment of sin removed)

1215 AD
Transubstantiation by Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council

1215 AD
Mass a Sacrifice of Christ

1251 AD
The Scapular, the brown cloak worn by monks invented by Simon Stock

1268 AD
Priestly power of absolution

1311 AD
Baptism by sprinkling accepted as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick. (Council of Ravenna)

1414 AD
Laity no longer offered Lord’s cup at communion (Council of Constance)

1439 AD
Purgatory a dogma by the Council of Florence (see 593 AD)

1439 AD
Doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed

1480 AD
The Inquisition (of Spain)

1495 AD
Papal control of marriage rights

1534 AD
Order of Jesuits founded by Loyola

1545 AD
Man-made tradition of church made equal to Bible (Council of Trent)

1545 AD
Apocryphal books added to Bible (Council of Trent)

1546 AD
Justification by human works of merit

1546 AD
Mass universally said in Latin (see 600 AD)

1547 AD
Confirmation

1560 AD
Personal opinions of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed

1864 AD
Syllabus Errorum [Syllabus of Errors] proclaimed that “Catholic countries” could not tolerate other religions, (no freedom of religion), conscience, separation of church and State condemned, asserted the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers (Ratified by Pope Pius IX and Vatican Council) condemned

1870 AD
Infallibility of Pope (Vatican council)

1908 AD
All Catholics should be christened into the church

1930 AD
Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XII (see 1864 AD)

1950 AD
Sinners prayer, invented by Billy Sunday and made popular by Billy Graham. (Some Catholics now use this)

1950 AD
Assumption of the body of the Virgin Mary into heaven shortly after her death. (Pope Pius XII)

1954 AD
Immaculate conception of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII

1995 AD
The use of girls in the traditional alter boy duties

1996 AD
Catholics can believe in Evolution (Pope John Paul II)

 

[Anonymous_1]

I will let someone who knows there stuff better handle this.

But these different milestones and declarations are often just a case of the Church affirming, or officially declaring that which the Church always believed. Not a matter of the Church just “inventing” different Doctrines or Dogma. Also, the Church has been entrusted with a deposit of faith. Like a seed, this deposit has “grown” and leads to a progressive understanding of things. It only makes sense. We have the experience of the lives of faithful members of the Church over the past 2006 years who have went before us, it only makes sense that we would have a deeper understanding of certain things than the Early Church.

 

[Mike_D30]

If you’re just going to plagerize a site at least give credit to the author:

bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm

Seriously who has time to answer all of this, especially since it’s been done 1,000 times before? There’s ton of information on Catholic Answers to answer each of these individually. If you are really looking for an answer and not just a fight, I refer you to Catholic Answers library:

catholic.com/library.asp

God Bless!

 

[MrS]

I too expect a miracle :
You need to do the work… most of your list means nothing… like a year/holy water … year/lent … year/penance etc

And most are disciplines, not doctrinal

And some are times of defining a doctrine, not its beginning, like the Assumption, and Immaculate Conception.

It appears you are not Catholic, but perhaps some one with a lot of questions… so welcome. But how about one question at a time… even though there are posters here who will actually take the time and patience to respond to your list of questions.

 

[MrS]

Mike_D30:

If you’re just going to plagerize a site at least give credit to the author:

bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm

God Bless!

Thanks Mike… it looked familiar to me too… I call it

the Yada, Yada list.

 

[RobNY]

ExpectAMiracle2:

If the catholic church has the corner on the truth - then why so many changes in doctrine? I’m sure some on this list can be dismissed or there is a good excuse but I am curious about one other thing I surfed across today - is it true that the Catholic church taught all non-Catholic were going to hell prior to the Vatican 2 in 1965? If so, what scripture is that based on and if papal infalibility is true then why the change in thought process after almost 2000 years? It appears to me that if we visited those in the apostolic times the “church” you tout as “universal” would be quite different than the “universal” church today. Thanks in advance for your responses. God Bless, read the Word and Expect A Miracle.

It appears to me that you are coming to us with mock interest in truly finding out what we believe. For instance, it is not true that the Church ever taught that all non-Catholics were going to hell. I don’t have time to take apart all of these, and I’m sure someone here has a resource that refutes all of these, but I’ll take a few and let everyone who enters the topic take another.

325 AD
At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.

Just as in the Catholic Church today there is no blanket prohibition of married candidates becoming priests. The Church has never supported marriage after ordination, but has allowed those who are already married to become priests. In the West this is generally prohibited. In the East, married men may still become priests. Celibacy is in accord with Jesus’ command that:

12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it." (Matt 19:12)

And Paul’s belief that

“To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am.” (7:8).

And that he who marries

“does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better” (7:38).

Not to mention the life of the beloved apostle, John, who remained unmarried.

526 AD
Extreme Unction

This goes back to apostolic times, as James shows:

1. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14-15)

Just as the apostles anointed with oil in Mark:

13 They drove out many demons, and they anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them. (Mk 6:13)

1268 AD
Priestly power of absolution

Actually, Jesus invented this one:

21 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20: 21-23)

Etc…

 

[awfulthings9]

Wow guys. He got us. The gig is finally up.

Oh well. It was a nice ride while it lasted.

If somebody wants to call the Vatican, I’ll let Karl and Jimmy know. Oh, and Scott … somebody needs to call Scott Hahn. He’s going to be heart-broken.

 

[RobNY]

awfulthings9:

If somebody wants to call the Vatican, I’ll let Karl and Jimmy know. Oh, and Scott … somebody needs to call Scott Hahn. He’s going to be heart-broken.

Well, I’m not going to be the one to break the news to him.

 

[m134e5]

This has so many things wrong with it I don’t even know where to begin. Whoever wrote it clearly lacks an understanding of the differences between Tradition and tradition, and doesn’t understand that while truth stays the same, our understanding of it can change.

 

[Aaron_I]

This is my favorite one:

1215 AD
Mass a Sacrifice of Christ

What happened, a priest thought for a second and noticed that Christ’s body and blood were seperate during the mass? I don’t think that would take a thousand years to figure out.

 

[MrS]

awfulthings9:

Wow guys. He got us. The gig is finally up.

Oh well. It was a nice ride while it lasted.

If somebody wants to call the Vatican, I’ll let Karl and Jimmy know. Oh, and Scott … somebody needs to call Scott Hahn. He’s going to be heart-broken.

they will never believe you… they are all part of the big conspiracy…http://smileys.smileycentral.com/ca...://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_14_2.gif

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/ca...://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_18_1.gif

 

[ExpectAMiracle2]

MikeD:

Sorry I failed to cite the author. I did comment that I ran acrosss this list while surfing and no the list is not my own but after reading it I just wanted to get some honest opinions on what it meant to a practicing catholic. For those who asked - I am not Catholic - I am a follower of Christ - a christian. Denomination is not as important to me as knowing Him. My love for the Lord is centered on Him and his word only.

I appreciate those of you who took a stab at a few of these. I was shocked at the list in general. I hoped that the church didn’t teach non-catholics were headed to hell. I have seen a few quotes out on the net credited to many of the past leaders of the Catholic church saying just that. Are these false accusations against the catholic church? I hope so.

 

[RobNY]

Aaron I.:

This is my favorite one:

What happened, a priest thought for a second and noticed that Christ’s body and blood were seperate during the mass? I don’t think that would take a thousand years to figure out.

We don’t even have to get that specific about it, after all, the Fathers consistently held it since apostolic times. Witness the Didache and Clement of Rome in particular:

"Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Clement of Rome:

“Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release” (*Letter to the Corinthians *44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).

Not to mention that the Didache and Justin Martyr both connect the Malachi passage with the sacrifice:

"God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).

He ends up being off by nearly the entire time that he puts.

 

[JimG]

Sounds like a list of “Catholic Inventions”

catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp

 

[Church_Militant]

Same old Boettner’s List bunkum…that’s been refuted a zillion times and proved to be a load of misinformation and errors.

The Boettner List: Fact or Fiction

 

[Church_Militant]

ExpectAMiracle2:

MikeD:

Sorry I failed to cite the author. I did comment that I ran acrosss this list while surfing and no the list is not my own but after reading it I just wanted to get some honest opinions on what it meant to a practicing catholic. For those who asked - I am not Catholic - I am a follower of Christ - a christian. Denomination is not as important to me as knowing Him. My love for the Lord is centered on Him and his word only.

I appreciate those of you who took a stab at a few of these. I was shocked at the list in general. I hoped that the church didn’t teach non-catholics were headed to hell. I have seen a few quotes out on the net credited to many of the past leaders of the Catholic church saying just that. Are these false accusations against the catholic church? I hope so.

Yes!

 

[JimG]

More Catholic Inventions
catholic.com/library/more_catholic_inventions.asp

 

[RobNY]

ExpectAMiracle2:

My love for the Lord is centered on Him and his word only.

And if His word says that you must follow the Catholic Church? That’s what we believe. Please investigate, we hope you’ll find the same conclusion.

I appreciate those of you who took a stab at a few of these. I was shocked at the list in general. I hoped that the church didn’t teach non-catholics were headed to hell.

The Church teaches, “no salvation outside of the Catholic Church,” which when reconstituted positively means that all salvation comes through the Church as an instrument of salvation. Therefore, it is possible for those who are not literally in the Church to be, nonetheless, be saved. (For instance, people who are invincibly ignorant of Christ.)

I have seen a few quotes out on the net credited to many of the past leaders of the Catholic church saying just that. Are these false accusations against the catholic church? I hope so.

It is a very complicated issue that can’t be done full justice in this topic. Do a search for salvation outside of the Catholic Church, or start a new topic on it. To say, “possible” is distinct from saying, “probable.” (We can’t know, “probable.”)

From the Catechism:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

**848 **"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

EDIT: Church Militant, that’s the link! Good one!

 

[DeFide]

ExpectAMiracle2:

MikeD:

Sorry I failed to cite the author. I did comment that I ran acrosss this list while surfing and no the list is not my own but after reading it I just wanted to get some honest opinions on what it meant to a practicing catholic. For those who asked - I am not Catholic - I am a follower of Christ - a christian. Denomination is not as important to me as knowing Him. My love for the Lord is centered on Him and his word only.

I appreciate those of you who took a stab at a few of these. I was shocked at the list in general. I hoped that the church didn’t teach non-catholics were headed to hell. I have seen a few quotes out on the net credited to many of the past leaders of the Catholic church saying just that. Are these false accusations against the catholic church? I hope so.

If you’re out to see if the Catholic Church is true, why not pick the one example off that list that you think is the most air-tight case against the Catholic Church being the Church established by Christ to teach infallibly on matters of faith and morals.

I’ll give you a head start: Make sure the one you pick is not merely the opinion of a theologian or any old statement by any Catholic. The “flip flop” must be defined by the magisterium of the Church as a matter of faith or morals to be believed by all Catholics. If you can find a flip-flop on that, bring it on. Non-Catholics have yet to come up with one.

I’ll give you some more help:
catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

And when you pick your best case, please start a new thread.

 

[Wolseley]

Ah, the Boettner List!

Not my place to push my own work, but since I did write a short book refuting this very list of nonsense, I present the link for your reading pleasure:

christianforums.com/t922262-the-boettner-list-fact-or-fiction.html