take a step back and have a look

[RobHom]

You are just like the wife of a long time abusive alcoholic. No matter what, you always have an excuse or some kind of justification of the circumstances or behavior of your husband . How sad.

SIA… What is becoming more than “sad” is your pedantic rhetoric that always seems to seek the bottom slime layer of a cesspool.

BEFORE you try to play that “sexual abuse card” one more time… I suggest that you spend a couple of minutes reading the information on this site…

reformation.com/

As Christ Himself said: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[Ronald_E]

In relationship to the opening post I refer to John 17:20-23 “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be grought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”
How can we be one if we are divided? If we are divided the world then will not believe that Jesus was sent by the Father. Look at reality. Being divided diminishes Our Lord in the eyes of the world. If we are united Christ becomes real to the rest of mankind.
We support suffering in the world by being divided because we diminish God’s Word with our egotistic bickering. We debate about theology when we could be one as Christ desires us to be.
In the meantime needless suffering continues.

 

[fbl9]

Ronald_E:
i say this not to diminsh you…how are we to resovle whom is Christ’s witness, who we are to beleive in order to believe in Him…people will say read scripture that is all one needs.how i am to know for sure the words i read belong in scripture.

 

[Swan]

It is Jesus Christ’s promise, and that is the THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT! Amen Amen.

Ufamtobie

How this translates into “I’m founding the RC church and making it infallible” is a mystery to me. And, evidently, several million other people.

 

[goodfriend]

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[SIA]

Peter himself denied Jesus three times, not long after Jesus gave His word to him. Are you saying that by Peter’s denial, Peter refused to become the successor?

RCC has gone off tracks? Before we touch the issue of the dogmas, let me ask you some questions. Do you believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit? Do you believe in the Trinity?

Jesus gave Peter authoirty in the Church because of his understanding of who
Christ is certainly not because of his courage. If we were judged by what we do, none of us would make it. Christ died for Peter as he did for everyone. Trinity and deity of the Spirit; countless Scriptures prove it. I know where this is going.

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus gave Peter authoirty in the Church because of his understanding of who
Christ is certainly not because of his courage. If we were judged by what we do, none of us would make it. Christ died for Peter as he did for everyone. Trinity and deity of the Spirit; countless Scriptures prove it. I know where this is going.

Countless Scriptures prove it, yes - but we didn’t add those particular Scriptures to the Bible until after various Church Councils had defined these doctrines of the Church. It was only then - after the Church had solemnly and infallibly proclaimed these Doctrines - that we were able to recognize that those particular books belonged in the Bible.

The order is like this:

1. Jesus came.
2. Jesus taught the Apostles in oral format.
3. The Apostles taught others in oral format.
4. More than 600 Gospel books, letters, and exhortations were written.
5. The Apostles’ Creed and the Didache were promulgated throughout the Church.
6. St. Clement establishes his pedigree as Successor of Peter and Chief Shepherd of the whole Church. It is established that the Bishop of Rome occupies the Chair of Peter, and thus takes on two roles - that of Bishop of Rome, and that of Chief Shepherd of the whole Church. (This is reaffirmed several times throughout the history of the Church, with each Pope naming his lineage at the time of his Accession to the See of Rome. (That’s where we get that list of all the Popes from.)
7. The role of the laity is defined
8. The formula for the Absolution of Sins is established.
9. The nature and effects of Baptism are discerned.
10. The nature of the Trinity and the character of the Incarnation are discerned.
11. The indissolubility of Marriage becomes required for belief.
12. The celibacy of the clergy is established as being the norm.
13. The relationship between Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation is discerned; the norms for the Sacrament of Confirmation are established.
14. The question of the baptism of heretics is addressed; it is established that if they are baptized with the Trinitarian formula with the intent to do what the Church does, they can be received into the Church with a Profession of Faith and a good Confession, without having to be rebaptized.
15. The Nicene Creed is established, and promulgated to the Church.
16. A canon of Sacred Scripture is proposed.
17. The perpetual virginity of Mary is discerned and becomes required for belief.
18. The process for entering into the life of a monk is regularized.
19. A canon of Sacred Scripture is reviewed and approved in Carthage, for local use only.
20. It is established that, if it is possible, the priest should hear the Confession of the dying and give the Absolution, before giving the Sacrament of Viaticum of the Dying.
21. The Carthaginian Canon of Scripture is approved and promulgated infallibly for the use of the whole world. (We now have the Bible.)
22. The question of who may administer the Sacrament of Confirmation is finalized.

… the Church continues to wrestle with a wide variety of questions; there is no indication of this coming to a stop at the moment that the Bible appeared on the scene. What I mean to say is, they never thought of “Scripture alone” when they gave us the Bible. It was and still is just one of several modes of transmission for the Holy Tradition - the authoritative mode continued on and still remains the Pope and his Councils.

 

[SIA]

Countless Scriptures prove it, yes - but we didn’t add those particular Scriptures to the Bible until after various Church Councils had defined these doctrines of the Church. It was only then - after the Church had solemnly and infallibly proclaimed these Doctrines - that we were able to recognize that those particular books belonged in the Bible.

The order is like this:

1. Jesus came.
2. Jesus taught the Apostles in oral format.
3. The Apostles taught others in oral format.
4. More than 600 Gospel books, letters, and exhortations were written.
5. The Apostles’ Creed and the Didache were promulgated throughout the Church.
6. St. Clement establishes his pedigree as Successor of Peter and Chief Shepherd of the whole Church. It is established that the Bishop of Rome occupies the Chair of Peter, and thus takes on two roles - that of Bishop of Rome, and that of Chief Shepherd of the whole Church. (This is reaffirmed several times throughout the history of the Church, with each Pope naming his lineage at the time of his Accession to the See of Rome. (That’s where we get that list of all the Popes from.)
7. The role of the laity is defined
8. The formula for the Absolution of Sins is established.
9. The nature and effects of Baptism are discerned.
10. The nature of the Trinity and the character of the Incarnation are discerned.
11. The indissolubility of Marriage becomes required for belief.
12. The celibacy of the clergy is established as being the norm.
13. The relationship between Baptism and the Sacrament of Confirmation is discerned; the norms for the Sacrament of Confirmation are established.
14. The question of the baptism of heretics is addressed; it is established that if they are baptized with the Trinitarian formula with the intent to do what the Church does, they can be received into the Church with a Profession of Faith and a good Confession, without having to be rebaptized.
15. The Nicene Creed is established, and promulgated to the Church.
16. A canon of Sacred Scripture is proposed.
17. The perpetual virginity of Mary is discerned and becomes required for belief.
18. The process for entering into the life of a monk is regularized.
19. A canon of Sacred Scripture is reviewed and approved in Carthage, for local use only.
20. It is established that, if it is possible, the priest should hear the Confession of the dying and give the Absolution, before giving the Sacrament of Viaticum of the Dying.
21. The Carthaginian Canon of Scripture is approved and promulgated infallibly for the use of the whole world. (We now have the Bible.)
22. The question of who may administer the Sacrament of Confirmation is finalized.

… the Church continues to wrestle with a wide variety of questions; there is no indication of this coming to a stop at the moment that the Bible appeared on the scene. What I mean to say is, they never thought of “Scripture alone” when they gave us the Bible. It was and still is just one of several modes of transmission for the Holy Tradition - the authoritative mode continued on and still remains the Pope and his Councils.

A very well thought out and written statement here, but we just don’t agree and that’s fine.

 

[jmcrae]

A very well thought out and written statement here, but we just don’t agree and that’s fine.

So, which parts do you disagree with?

In your history book, where does the Bible come, in the list of things that happened in the Early Church?

 

[SIA]

So, which parts do you disagree with?

In your history book, where does the Bible come, in the list of things that happened in the Early Church?

The authors of the New Testament are obvious. The Early Church spent much laborious painstaking time and prayer to be able to discern from God his Holy Word. We know that this is important because of what Christ eluded to many time in the Scriptures by saying, “it is written”.

 

[jmcrae]

The authors of the New Testament are obvious.

That’s great news! Scholars are wondering who is the author of the Letter to the Hebrews - if you know, please tell!

The Early Church spent much laborious painstaking time and prayer to be able to discern from God his Holy Word.

Which they got from the Holy Tradition, by means of the various Councils and Popes who were discerning and writing these things. (See my list, above. Those are all written documents from Councils and from various Popes.)

We know that this is important because of what Christ eluded to many time in the Scriptures by saying, “it is written”.

He was not referring to the New Testament, though. There is nothing in Scripture, not even in the New Testament, that indicates anywhere that God would ever authorize the addition of 27 new books to the Bible. If we go by “Scripture alone” we are in the self-contradictory situation of having to ban the writings of the New Testament (as, in fact, the Jews did, on that very basis), since there is nothing in the Bible anywhere that authorizes their existence - they are purely a product of the Catholic Church and its Holy Tradition.

 

[SIA]

He was not referring to the New Testament, though. There is nothing in Scripture, not even in the New Testament, that indicates anywhere that God would ever authorize the addition of 27 new books to the Bible. If we go by “Scripture alone” we are in the self-contradictory situation of having to ban the writings of the New Testament (as, in fact, the Jews did, on that very basis), since there is nothing in the Bible anywhere that authorizes their existence - they are purely a product of the Catholic Church and its Holy Tradition.

???

 

[SIA]

I never eluded to Scripture alone. I eluded to truth alone.

 

[jmcrae]

I never eluded to Scripture alone. I eluded to truth alone.

Truth alone is good.

Let’s back up a step.

What (in your opinion) was Jesus referring to, when He said, “It is written”?

 

[SIA]

Truth alone is good.

Let’s back up a step.

What (in your opinion) was Jesus referring to, when He said, “It is written”?

Jesus eluded to many things that his people would find truth in. He did this repeatedly. When talking to Satan, he said, “it is written” to disprove Satan and to pronounce truth. Of course Scripture is God’s own Word and Jesus profoundly declared the statement as a mainstay of truth.

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus eluded to many things that his people would find truth in.

Yes …

He did this repeatedly. When talking to Satan, he said, “it is written” to disprove Satan and to pronounce truth.

But the things that Satan was saying were also written down, in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Of course Scripture is God’s own Word and Jesus profoundly declared the statement as a mainstay of truth.

So, what was it, exactly, that made Jesus’ Old Testament quotations to be “more true” than Satan’s? After all, they were both quoting from the Old Testament.