Take communion only if

[Anneymay]

You have all done a wonderful job of talking around my question. You have pointed out the laws of the church, different scriptures and so on. However, not a single one of you have answered where, in scripture, did Jesus say “Do this only if…” I was raised Catholic, have talked with priest after priest regarding my questions to which they were also unable to answer without referring to man’s opinion and therefore became the law of the church. It is so very sad.

 

[Victorious]

You have all done a wonderful job of talking around my question. You have pointed out the laws of the church, different scriptures and so on. However, not a single one of you have answered where, in scripture, did Jesus say “Do this only if…” I was raised Catholic, have talked with priest after priest regarding my questions to which they were also unable to answer without referring to man’s opinion and therefore became the law of the church. It is so very sad.

There’s the problem right there. You don’t believe that the Church is what she claims to be, namely, the True Church founded by Jesus Christ and speaking with His authority. That allows you to ask questions of priests, get an answer other than the one you want to hear, and then dismiss the answer as “man’s opinion.”

 

[tweetymom]

You have all done a wonderful job of talking around my question. You have pointed out the laws of the church, different scriptures and so on. However, not a single one of you have answered where, in scripture, did Jesus say “Do this only if…” I was raised Catholic, have talked with priest after priest regarding my questions to which they were also unable to answer without referring to man’s opinion and therefore became the law of the church. It is so very sad.

Anneymay. I have asked the same question at least a dozen times and never have gotten the answer. Hope you do without being bashed or put on ignore cause you don’t agree with some and try to state your beliefs. A sincere God Bless.

 

[crazzeto]

@Annymay & Tweetmom,

I beleive I answered your question quite directly if you find my posting in this thread. If you have any further questions please let me know. God bless you both.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

You have all done a wonderful job of talking around my question. You have pointed out the laws of the church, different scriptures and so on. ***However, not a single one of you have answered where, in scripture, did Jesus say “Do this only if…” *** I was raised Catholic, have talked with priest after priest regarding my questions to which they were also unable to answer without referring to man’s opinion and therefore became the law of the church. It is so very sad.

It doesn’t and it should not have too!

The Catholic Church does not believe in the idea of “sola scriptura” (by scripture alone), this rule is based on tradition.

 

[crazzeto]

It doesn’t and it should not have too!

The Catholic Church does not believe in the idea of “sola scriptura” (by scripture alone), this rule is based on tradition.

St Paul says exactly this in his Epistle, though yes Christ never got around to mentioning it him self… And as we all know:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

Just because it was Paul’s Epistle and not Christs teaching durring his earthly ministry doesn’t make it any less valid.

1Co 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
1Co 11:30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep.

That’s some pretty serious consequence for not properly discerning your worth of the body and blood of Christ.

 

[CMatt25]

No, they don’t. That is a deceit that comes straight out of hell. God, on the other hand, can neither deceive nor be deceived, so when we are presented with a truth revealed by God through the Church, that truth requires not our approval, but our assent. No one has the right to dissent from the truth. When you dissent from the truth, you are by definition not acting in good conscience.

Here is a classic example of the extent to which the heresy of modernism has permeated the Church.

You apparently then have the power to judge one’s heart and conscience. God bless you.

 

[tweetymom]

You apparently then have the power to judge one’s heart and conscience. God bless you.

Ufortunally there are a lot of people around that seem to think they know ones heart. A sincere God Bless to you Matt

 

[ProVobis]

@Annymay & Tweetmom,

Sounds like a cartoon.

 

[crazzeto]

Ufortunally there are a lot of people around that seem to think they know ones heart. A sincere God Bless to you Matt

I’m not sure where this talk of knowing “ones heart” started, but you don’t need to be God to make a very good educated guess as to whether or not you should be partaking of the blood and body of our Lord and Saviour. You need not pretend you are the perfect Judge of heart, rather you need only put some effort into attempting to discern whether or not you should be receiving.

You aren’t necessarly condemed for falsely discerning your self, as long as you actually made a legitimate and honest attempt to make such a discernment. As always, the gravity of your guilt in this sin, increases with your level of knowlege of it and your level of knowlege of the disposition of your own heart.

God bless tweetymom and sorry for getting your UN wrong in an earlier post.

 

[CMatt25]

You have all done a wonderful job of talking around my question. You have pointed out the laws of the church, different scriptures and so on. However, not a single one of you have answered where, in scripture, did Jesus say “Do this only if…” I was raised Catholic, have talked with priest after priest regarding my questions to which they were also unable to answer without referring to man’s opinion and therefore became the law of the church. It is so very sad.

I did quote only Whose “opinion” that matters in an attempt to answer your question. His “opinion” was very clear. I don’t see this having anything to do with sola scriptura either. How much simpler could Jesus have put it. A man of authority is not needed to interpret this one.

Jn 6:37 Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me.** I will never turn away anyone who comes to me. **

One can not show you where Jesus says to do this only if you are Catholic when Jesus didn’t say that. He said He will never turn away anyone whom our Heavenly Father gives Him and comes to Him.

I in a way find it kinda strange. We say the Lord I am not worthy to receive You prayer, but only say the word and I shall be healed just prior to Communion. People receive His calling and healing. Yet are told they shouldn’t receive. Peace and God bless.

 

[CMatt25]

I’m not sure where this talk of knowing “ones heart” started, but you don’t need to be God to make a very good educated guess as to whether or not you should be partaking of the blood and body of our Lord and Saviour. You need not pretend you are the perfect Judge of heart, rather you need only put some effort into attempting to discern whether or not you should be receiving.

You aren’t necessarly condemed for falsely discerning your self, as long as you actually made a legitimate and honest attempt to make such a discernment. As always, the gravity of your guilt in this sin, increases with your level of knowlege of it and your level of knowlege of the disposition of your own heart.

God bless tweetymom and sorry for getting your UN wrong in an earlier post.

Well most recently on this thread it began when Victorious said the many Catholics who dissent in good conscience from whatever they dissent from, do not have informed consciences. How does Victorious know another’s conscience or heart?

 

[CMatt25]

Ufortunally there are a lot of people around that seem to think they know ones heart. A sincere God Bless to you Matt

:sad_yes: or so it seems. God bless you too Tweetymom.

 

[CDNowak]

Well most recently on this thread it began when Victorious said the many Catholics who dissent in good conscience from whatever they dissent from, do not have informed consciences. How does Victorious know another’s conscience or heart?

CCC 1785:

In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path, we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.

A dissenting, informed conscience is, from the Church’s POV an oxymoron, FWIW.

 

[adrift]

You have all done a wonderful job of talking around my question. You have pointed out the laws of the church, different scriptures and so on. However, not a single one of you have answered where, in scripture, did Jesus say “Do this only if…” I was raised Catholic, have talked with priest after priest regarding my questions to which they were also unable to answer without referring to man’s opinion and therefore became the law of the church. It is so very sad.

It isn’t that your question isn’t answered. You don’t like the answer. Jesus gave the Keys to heaven to Peter and his successors. Jesus gave this power because there wouldn’t be a book big enough to cover all the a human can think of doing or not doing. That is what there needs to be an infallible source. That source that Jesus established was the Church. It is the authority of the Church granted by Jesus that allows the Church to say who is to receive the Eucharist. The Church basis it on scripture.

“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup” (1 Cor. 11:27–28)

The Church gives us guidelines that help us know who is worthy.
You must be in the state of grace
You must be in union with the Church hence the name “Communion”.
Sad is rejecting the authority that Jesus gave the Church.

 

[adrift]

Well most recently on this thread it began when Victorious said the many Catholics who dissent in good conscience from whatever they dissent from, do not have informed consciences. How does Victorious know another’s conscience or heart?

Just like when you see a person covered with snow, you know it is snowing.

 

[Victorious]

Well most recently on this thread it began when Victorious said the many Catholics who dissent in good conscience from whatever they dissent from, do not have informed consciences. How does Victorious know another’s conscience or heart?

1. I know that the fact that a doctrine comes from God makes it per se worthy of belief. Since God is not a liar, no further prooof is required.
2. I know that the doctrines of the Church are revealed by God, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived, Who gave His Church His own authority, and Who protects His Church from erring in matters of faith and morals, and that therefore, these doctrines are true.
3. Since an informed conscience would never direct a person to reject truth (which, by the way, is the same as rejecting God, Who is Truth Itself), a person who rejects that which is unquestionably true is acting on the dictates of an informed conscience. Such a person is either acting on an uninformed conscience, and giving his whims the imprimatur of “conscience”; or else he is simply going against his conscience. Both of these options are blameworthy: the former, because we all have a duty to inform our consciences, and are therefore responsible for that which we do not know through our own negligence; and the latter, because of the malice of deliberately doing what you know is wrong.

 

[Lycorth]

It doesn’t and it should not have too!

The Catholic Church does not believe in the idea of “sola scriptura” (by scripture alone), this rule is based on tradition.

Amen. Sola Scriptura is a Lutheran heresy which was refuted by Pope Leo X in Exsurge Domine and has no Scriptural basis; Scripture alone disproves “Scripture Alone” nowhere in the Bible does it say that we only rely on the Bible for truth or doctrine or that we should.

 

[CMatt25]

CDNowak; Victorious, Adrift,

So even if after informing oneself thru Scripture, the guidance of Church authorities, and prayerful reflection on one’s experience, someone 's conscience is still led to dissent on something, you appear to be saying one is forced to think and do things not in accordance with their conscience in order to be considered to have an informed good conscience.

That is a scary proposition if you ask me. Forcing someone to think contrary to their sincere conscience. I leave you with these quotes I came across. They at least appear to conflict with your evaluation of conscience. God bless and peace.

“A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

“He who acts against his conscience loses his soul.” (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)

“It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate one’s conscience.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

“Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed above all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. This emphasis on the individual, whose conscience confronts him with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which in the last resort is beyond the claim of external social groups, even of the official church, also establishes a principle in opposition to increasing totalitarianism.” (Joseph Ratzinger, Chair of Dogmatic Theology at the University of Tübingen. 1968.

“I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

“If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church.” (Pope John Paul II)

“In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests.” (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

ascensioncatholic.net/TOPICS/morality/ConscienceAndMoralDecisions.html

 

[Victorious]

So even if after informing oneself thru Scripture, the guidance of Church authorities, and prayerful reflection on one’s experience, someone 's conscience is still led to dissent on something, you appear to be saying one is forced to think and do things not in accordance with their conscience in order to be considered to have an informed good conscience.

Any time you think you know better than the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, founded by Jesus Christ, which has survived for two thousand years, then yes: no matter how much praying or “discerning” you think you have done, you are obliged to assume that the problem lies with you, and that you need to fix it. That is precisely why Jesus gave the Church His own authority: so that we may clearly identify the truth, and so that we need not be in the untenable position of relying on our own wisdom (or lack thereof) in the all-important matter of our salvation.