"Takeover" by Heterodox Lay Catholics?

[Crusader]

I have long wondered why it seems in so many Catholic parishes that heterodox lay persons hold many or all of the lay “power” positions? They often dominate parish committees and sadly, liturgy committees.

Some of this dominance certainly stems from heterodox pastors who choose people with like minds. It also seems to stem in large part from sexist/feminists who have the time and a common agenda to change the Church at all costs. (No, of course there are others…)

While the support of one’s pastor and bishop is indeed wonderful and welcomed, I’m curious as to why more orthodox Catholics don’t simply fill the lay power positions within their parishes as a means to institute change?

Yes it would be an extremely slow and difficult process, but just look at the possible results. I would love to hear of any parishes that were reformed by the participation of orthodox laity – as we certainly have numerous example of parishes that have been ruined by hetereodox laity.

 

[mfundis]

Crusader:

I have long wondered why it seems in so many Catholic parishes that heterodox lay persons hold many or all of the lay “power” positions? They often dominate parish committees and sadly, liturgy committees.

I think this may be a part of what’s going on in my diocese. I heard mention of a recent convocation of priests from our deanery in which there was apparently talk of different ecclesiology withing the priestly ranks themselves. The explanation for the differences, according to the discussion, was the differences in seminary training. The older priests who went to seminaries who looked at the church as an inverted pyramid (people first, pope at the bottom- God? trampled underneath no doubt) or looked at church as a circle (whatever that means) vs. the newer priest who are coming out of Kenrick seminary in St. Louis (yeah! ) who “think of church as a regular pyramid” with" the pope at the top" (although, I’d bet if you’d ask one of those priest, they would say God’s at the top…). Needless to say, the person telling us this wasn’t really thrilled with the latter model. The group of priest that this priest hangs with are pretty large and in charge in the deanery- at the diocesan paper, the pastoral center, etc. There is one who gives a bible study- who apparently is telling some of the people in our parish council that the church was ever evolving and that some pope along the way stopped this evolution because of some type of power grab. (I’ve been invited to go to the bible study- but I don’t know if I have the emotional fortitude ). These people, who have been indoctrinated into something completely OTHER than the Catholic church I know and love are in leadership roles in my parish our throughout the diocese.

I think a huge part of it is that theses people are so opinionated and loud that persons such as myself feel overwhelmed, and jane and john 6-pack average Catholic doesn’t feel like they know enough and let the “church people” handle this sort of thing… if that makes sense at all

I do hope you get some positive responses and examples on this thread though…I, for one, need some encouragement

 

[mercygate]

Crusader:

I’m curious as to why more orthodox Catholics don’t simply fill the lay power positions within their parishes as a means to institute change?

They don’t want us.

Though I am tame and nonconfrontational, I never yield on a point of orthodoxy. When I volunteered for the women’s Cornerstone retreat team, management was terrified and later told me that I was the best surprise of the weekend (that was a compliment?). As a convert, I volunteered to work with RCIA: “We have to wait and see what is happening this year.” Although I have appeared in national forums, speaking on the spiritual life, my skills have never been requested by the parish. My recent appearance on EWTN was never announced in the parish.

 

[Crusader]

mercygate:

They don’t want us.

Though I am tame and nonconfrontational, I never yield on a point of orthodoxy. When I volunteered for the women’s Cornerstone retreat team, management was terrified and later told me that I was the best surprise of the weekend (that was a compliment?). As a convert, I volunteered to work with RCIA: “We have to wait and see what is happening this year.” Although I have appeared in national forums, speaking on the spiritual life, my skills have never been requested by the parish. My recent appearance on EWTN was never announced in the parish.

It sounds like you bring a great deal to the table…

Take RCIA for instance. If they treat you with indifference, why don’t you esculate your offer to help up the chain to your diocesan director of religious education or your bishop? Once you are part of the RCIA “team”, then you could work to recruit other orthodox Catholics to the team.

I dunno. It is an extremely difficult and slow process, but it seems the heterodox are better are organizing and infiltrating and being patient until they finally take charge. Perhaps the blame lays with satan. I really don’t know.

Then again, perhaps the moral convictions of truly orthodox Catholics simply prevent them from using some of the techniques often employed by the hetereodox set…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

In my limited experience, it depends on the priest. If he’s heterodox, then he* allows *or *encourages *the heterodox to fill those positions of leadership. My parish is a little on the cliquey side in terms of lay leadership, but at least it’s orthodox, because our pastor is orthodox. Here’s another awful situation: I taught for 11 years on the Navajo Reservation (the Eastern Agency, which is in Western New Mexico…the res. is mostly in Arizona). For two years, I was in the village of Tohatchi, where the priest, a left of center Franciscan, was mostly known as a “12 Stepper” (talked more about recovery than Jesus). How can one hope for good catechisis in a situation like that? For nine years, I lived in the village of Crownpoint, where the church had a succession of priests, but two nuns remained throughout (Sister Adorers of the Most Precious Blood). These were modern, feminist nuns, who led the music in Mass, ran the parish (all of it), and were voluteers in the fire department. It barely resembled a Catholic parish. I know they tried to have one priest removed (they tried to do it through a parish council president, who latter told me about it) who wasn’t “progressive” enough. Now, can you imagine the teaching that goes on there? It isn’t always the heterodox laity .

 

[Detroit_Sue]

mercygate:

They don’t want us.

Though I am tame and nonconfrontational, I never yield on a point of orthodoxy. When I volunteered for the women’s Cornerstone retreat team, management was terrified and later told me that I was the best surprise of the weekend (that was a compliment?). As a convert, I volunteered to work with RCIA: “We have to wait and see what is happening this year.” Although I have appeared in national forums, speaking on the spiritual life, my skills have never been requested by the parish. My recent appearance on EWTN was never announced in the parish.

I think you should speak with the pastor on this issue, also. Think of yourself as a candle in a dark room. Continue to be faithful. You can make such a difference with your gifts.

 

[mercygate]

Detroit Sue:

I think you should speak with the pastor on this issue, also. Think of yourself as a candle in a dark room. Continue to be faithful. You can make such a difference with your gifts.

Thanks, Detroit. But who do you think I mean by “management?” The pastor hired the LC, the RCIA director, the DRE . . .

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

In our diocese, in order to be placed in any such positions, one must go through brainwashing -er- “formation” given by the diocese.

I’ve seen very conservative Catholics go in, and when they complete their studies and take their positions, I swear, I wouldn’t know they were the same people. They spew the whole liberal agenda. Some of these people were the very ones who warned me about the liberals’ agenda long ago…

 

[Crusader]

Panis Angelicas:

In our diocese, in order to be placed in any such positions, one must go through brainwashing -er- “formation” given by the diocese.

I’ve seen very conservative Catholics go in, and when they complete their studies and take their positions, I swear, I wouldn’t know they were the same people. They spew the whole liberal agenda. Some of these people were the very ones who warned me about the liberals’ agenda long ago…

I don’t buy this. First it has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal. It has to do with following the Church – or not following the Church.

While I can see men being brainwashed by 5-6 years of seminary, I cannot see where someone would be brainwashed by several hours of “formation” if they were faithful Catholics to begin with.

What I could see unfortunately are good Catholics whould would simply not undergo bad formation. My advice to them however would be to endure the garbage, tell them what they want to hear, and don’t let your orthodoxy be known until one is firmly ensconced in their position of import…

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Crusader:

I don’t buy this. First it has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal. It has to do with following the Church – or not following the Church.

While I can see men being brainwashed by 5-6 years of seminary, I cannot see where someone would be brainwashed by several hours of “formation” if they were faithful Catholics to begin with.

What I could see unfortunately are good Catholics whould would simply not undergo bad formation. My advice to them however would be to endure the garbage, tell them what they want to hear, and don’t let your orthodoxy be known until one is firmly ensconced in their position of import…

I’ve seen it happen, too. Sometimes people just go with the flow & mask their spirituality, but I’ve seen some major changes in people, too. It’s the only way to get a position at some of these parishes.

 

[Crusader]

Detroit Sue:

I’ve seen it happen, too. Sometimes people just go with the flow & mask their spirituality, but I’ve seen some major changes in people, too. It’s the only way to get a position at some of these parishes.

I really can’t believe that such people were faithful and well formed Catholics to begin with…

While I can certainly understand people hiding their orthodoxy before they take-on their position, it would be sad if they remained heterodox. In fact, it would suggest they were seeking the position, and not the responsibility to reform problems in their parishes…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Crusader:

In fact, it would suggest they were seeking the position, and not the responsibility to reform problems in their parishes…

But that’s just it, isn’t it, Crusader? The way the our church is structured, it’s the priest who’s supposed to “reform problems” in the parish. I’m a fairly forthright person, but I’m also a bit awed by priests (we should be at least a bit awed-they have Christ’s priestly nature indelibly stamped on their souls) and would have a hard time going to one about an abuse that he might have sanctioned or one he chooses to remain silent about. Go to the bishop? It would have to be something realllllllly egregious, like the desecration of the Blessed Sacrament. Sometimes I think they don’t want to be bothered.

 

[puzzleannie]

when I first volunteered as a catechist (blackmailed by a neighbor, nicest thing she ever did for me) my parish was on the boundary between the Cleveland and Youngstown diocese. Being over 2 hrs away from classes in Youngstown, I attended the first few catechist training sessions at a Cleveland parish, one of the most highly respected highly touted priests was teaching, pastor of one of the most successful (and affluent) parishes in the diocese. At the very first class we had US Catholic and NCR (the left wing one) presented as good Catholic fare, we had bible interpretation presented by Crossan, Murphy-OConnor and the Jesus Seminar, we had the “no original sin” school of sacramental preparation. Oh, in his parish they confirmed in 4th grade, 1st communion a year later, and never got around to 1st penance until junior high.

I went through the mandatory basic training but the garbage I was taught galvanized something in me and I recognized it for what it was, but did not know enough to combat it, so I started looking for the truth. I have great respect and affection for Fr. John Hardon, who brought a loved one back into the church shortly before his death. In his magazine Catholic Faith (sadly defunct, one of the excellent journals of our time) was an ad for Steubenville summer conferences. I attended for 6 summers, on my own money, using my vacation time.

My home pastor told me he would not recognize catechist certification from there since “they are trying to turn the clock back on Vatican 2”. I was able to inform him that in 40 years as an adult Catholic I had never read a V2 document before Steubie. There I learned from the documents, the encyclicals, the catechism, the bible–when Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins were doing their Federal Express version of salvation history–and the catechetical saints.

I learned enough never again to settle for the lie when the truth could be had for a little more work and investigation. In my book, anyone who propagates the lie especially to the young, innocent, non-catholic, and uninstructed, works with and for the father of lies.

thank you St. John Bosco. The truth will set you free.

 

[Crusader]

puzzleannie:

when I first volunteered as a catechist (blackmailed by a neighbor, nicest thing she ever did for me) my parish was on the boundary between the Cleveland and Youngstown diocese. Being over 2 hrs away from classes in Youngstown, I attended the first few catechist training sessions at a Cleveland parish, one of the most highly respected highly touted priests was teaching, pastor of one of the most successful (and affluent) parishes in the diocese. At the very first class we had US Catholic and NCR (the left wing one) presented as good Catholic fare, we had bible interpretation presented by Crossan, Murphy-OConnor and the Jesus Seminar, we had the “no original sin” school of sacramental preparation. Oh, in his parish they confirmed in 4th grade, 1st communion a year later, and never got around to 1st penance until junior high.

I went through the mandatory basic training but the garbage I was taught galvanized something in me and I recognized it for what it was, but did not know enough to combat it, so I started looking for the truth. I have great respect and affection for Fr. John Hardon, who brought a loved one back into the church shortly before his death. In his magazine Catholic Faith (sadly defunct, one of the excellent journals of our time) was an ad for Steubenville summer conferences. I attended for 6 summers, on my own money, using my vacation time.

My home pastor told me he would not recognize catechist certification from there since “they are trying to turn the clock back on Vatican 2”. I was able to inform him that in 40 years as an adult Catholic I had never read a V2 document before Steubie. There I learned from the documents, the encyclicals, the catechism, the bible–when Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins were doing their Federal Express version of salvation history–and the catechetical saints.

I learned enough never again to settle for the lie when the truth could be had for a little more work and investigation. In my book, anyone who propagates the lie especially to the young, innocent, non-catholic, and uninstructed, works with and for the father of lies.

thank you St. John Bosco. The truth will set you free.

Is that even physically possible?

 

[Crusader]

JKirkLVNV:

But that’s just it, isn’t it, Crusader? The way the our church is structured, it’s the priest who’s supposed to “reform problems” in the parish. I’m a fairly forthright person, but I’m also a bit awed by priests (we should be at least a bit awed-they have Christ’s priestly nature indelibly stamped on their souls) and would have a hard time going to one about an abuse that he might have sanctioned or one he chooses to remain silent about. Go to the bishop? It would have to be something realllllllly egregious, like the desecration of the Blessed Sacrament. Sometimes I think they don’t want to be bothered.

I didn’t suggest going to the priest or bishop. I suggest orthodox Catholics simply fill all the lay power positions at their parishes…

 

[puzzleannie]

Crusader:

Is that even physically possible?

Is what physically possible? I rambled on way too long, sorry I usually am terse to a fault. did you know when you quote you can highlite and delete sections that don’t apply to your reply.