Taking care of Jewish widows

[Dokimas]

Please give links that tell us the Jewish tradition of taking care of their widows, specifically during the time to Jesus.

I’m looking for Jewish historical documentation to back up the reason some on this forum have for saying Mary had NO other children because Jesus told John to take care of her.

I hope my request and the reason for it is clear.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Please give links that tell us the Jewish tradition of taking care of their widows, specifically during the time to Jesus.

I’m looking for Jewish historical documentation to back up the reason some on this forum have for saying Mary had NO other children because Jesus told John to take care of her.

I hope my request and the reason for it is clear.

Not Jewish, but does one have to be to think this through?
The claims of non catholics are that he had brothers.
If Jesus had brothers, what right would he have to delegate to anyone outside of his family to care for their mother? I think it is the non catholic that the burden falls on to show Jewish tradition that is anywhere close to this.
The non catholic is making the claim that it is perfectly reasonable for Jesus to do this. Yet, they never can express WHY.

 

[Nine_Two]

I don’t have a source, but I agree with Strawberry jam. If one of my siblings died and on her death bed told one of their friends to take care of our mother, I’d be quite mad about it.

 

[dianaiad]

Not Jewish, but does one have to be to think this through?
The claims of non catholics are that he had brothers.
If Jesus had brothers, what right would he have to delegate to anyone outside of his family to care for their mother? I think it is the non catholic that the burden falls on to show Jewish tradition that is anywhere close to this.
The non catholic is making the claim that it is perfectly reasonable for Jesus to do this. Yet, they never can express WHY.

Jesus was the eldest son. He could have had authority, even over his brothers. That’s been fairly standard practice among many cultures. It’s called “primogeniture,” and isn’t at all unheard of.

Just because OUR culture doesn’t give the oldest son that sort of power, it doesn’t mean that other cultures do not…especially when many other cultures most certainly did. The question is, did the Jewish culture of the time give Jesus that level of authority over His mother, over and above any claims other children might have?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Jesus was the eldest son. He could have had authority, even over his brothers. That’s been fairly standard practice among many cultures. It’s called “primogeniture,” and isn’t at all unheard of.

Just because OUR culture doesn’t give the oldest son that sort of power, it doesn’t mean that other cultures do not…especially when many other cultures most certainly did. The question is, did the Jewish culture of the time give Jesus that level of authority over His mother, over and above any claims other children might have?

I do not disagree that as the oldest, he would have a position of authority. What makes me question, is that he had time to discuss this with the alleged brothers before the event.
Edit:

Why would his own flesh and blood not be good enough to care for her?
Could it be because, his own flesh and blood could ONLY be good enough for ALL?

 

[dianaiad]

I do not disagree that as the oldest, he would have a position of authority. What makes me question, is that he had time to discuss this with the alleged brothers before the event.
Edit:

Why would his own flesh and blood not be good enough to care for her?
Could it be because, his own flesh and blood could ONLY be good enough for ALL?

HE had 33 years, after all…and definitely the three years of His ministry, when I’m quite certain He know exactly what the results of His efforts were going to be. Come to think of it, wasn’t something like that the whole POINT?

To be a little facetious here, Jesus was, after all, perfect. How perfect would He be if He procrastinated THAT discussion?

 

[StrawberryJam]

HE had 33 years, after all…and definitely the three years of His ministry, when I’m quite certain He know exactly what the results of His efforts were going to be. Come to think of it, wasn’t something like that the whole POINT?

To be a little facetious here, Jesus was, after all, perfect. How perfect would He be if He procrastinated THAT discussion?

I think that is why we are discussing this topic to begin with.

My suggestion is, that if he was in fact perfect- then… we can’t agree that the senario painted by the non catholic is plausible in the least.
You even give the catholic more ammo by limiting his actual ministry to three years (was not every breath his ministry?)
And, he would even be willing to give his mother up to someone he only just met in that course of ministry you say was three years.
Let us compare that to his so called life long relationships with his so called brothers.
Given the information, Why would Jesus feel so confident with someone out of the family? Is the implication that his brothers were worthless do nothings?
Is there scriptural support to believe that his so called brothers were somehow less than normal? Or not responsible?
Or that they were cousins?

 

[Anita_K]

For Christians that hold to the complex trinity, shame on you for even daring to question G-d. G-d knows what you tiny thinking cant comprehend.

 

[StrawberryJam]

For Christians that hold to the complex trinity, shame on you for even daring to question G-d. G-d knows what you tiny thinking cant comprehend.

Theology is a topic you may want to avoid then.

 

[Sam_777]

Jesus was the eldest son. He could have had authority, even over his brothers. That’s been fairly standard practice among many cultures. It’s called “primogeniture,” and isn’t at all unheard of.

Just because OUR culture doesn’t give the oldest son that sort of power, it doesn’t mean that other cultures do not…especially when many other cultures most certainly did. The question is, did the Jewish culture of the time give Jesus that level of authority over His mother, over and above any claims other children might have?

dianaiad,

You are totally wrong on this one, here in our Arabic culture we have 100% the principle of “primogeniture”, we practice it day to day, BUT one of the concepts of it, is NEVER let a stranger take care of your mother or sister EVEN by the power of the eldest son.

Moreover, anther concept is the person marrying his cousin so that he doesn’t allow a stranger into the family line.

So if JESUS had assigned the task of taking care of His mother to His disciple, then that assures that He had no biological brothers and sisters.

 

[Dokimas]

Not Jewish, but does one have to be to think this through?
The claims of non catholics are that he had brothers.
If Jesus had brothers, what right would he have to delegate to anyone outside of his family to care for their mother? I think it is the non catholic that the burden falls on to show Jewish tradition that is anywhere close to this.
The non catholic is making the claim that it is perfectly reasonable for Jesus to do this. Yet, they never can express WHY.

Are you asking me what right Jesus had to do as He knew was correct? Think about it.

 

[Dokimas]

I don’t have a source, but I agree with Strawberry jam. If one of my siblings died and on her death bed told one of their friends to take care of our mother, I’d be quite mad about it.

I guess my comment to you is the same as I made to Strawberry. We’re talking about Jesus and His decision, not the decision of you and me.

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus was the eldest son. He could have had authority, even over his brothers. That’s been fairly standard practice among many cultures. It’s called “primogeniture,” and isn’t at all unheard of.

Just because OUR culture doesn’t give the oldest son that sort of power, it doesn’t mean that other cultures do not…especially when many other cultures most certainly did. The question is, did the Jewish culture of the time give Jesus that level of authority over His mother, over and above any claims other children might have?

Good points.

However, I was looking for historical evidence that Jesus had to leave Mary in the ‘hands’ of the next oldest son, if Jesus had brothers from Mary. That’s what seems to be the reason some on this forum give for why Jesus had no brothers.

 

[Dokimas]

I do not disagree that as the oldest, he would have a position of authority. What makes me question, is that he had time to discuss this with the alleged brothers before the event.
Edit:

Why would his own flesh and blood not be good enough to care for her?
Could it be because, his own flesh and blood could ONLY be good enough for ALL?

The event of His crucifixion did not ‘creep’ up on Jesus. He knew it would happen long before it happened.

Do you understand why God does everything He does, why He does them or are His ways higher than our ways, His thoughts higher than our thoughts?

 

[Dokimas]

I think that is why we are discussing this topic to begin with.

My suggestion is, that if he was in fact perfect- then… we can’t agree that the senario painted by the non catholic is plausible in the least.
You even give the catholic more ammo by limiting his actual ministry to three years (was not every breath his ministry?)
And, he would even be willing to give his mother up to someone he only just met in that course of ministry you say was three years.
Let us compare that to his so called life long relationships with his so called brothers.
Given the information, Why would Jesus feel so confident with someone out of the family? Is the implication that his brothers were worthless do nothings?
Is there scriptural support to believe that his so called brothers were somehow less than normal? Or not responsible?
Or that they were cousins?

Jesus knew the heart of John. Also, Jesus did only what His Father told Him to do.

Using the logic of not knowing John, why did He give Mary to him anyway? Why didn’t He bring her to Heaven with Him in Acts 1? That would solve some of the mysteries.

BTW, would you leave the care of your mother to a brother that was a heathen if you could give her care into the hands of a wonderful catholic friend of yours?

Joh 7:5 For even His brothers did not believe in Him.

Interesting verse:

Joh 2:12 ¶ After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.

 

[Dokimas]

dianaiad,

You are totally wrong on this one, here in our Arabic culture we have 100% the principle of “primogeniture”, we practice it day to day, BUT one of the concepts of it, is NEVER let a stranger take care of your mother or sister EVEN by the power of the eldest son.

Moreover, anther concept is the person marrying his cousin so that he doesn’t allow a stranger into the family line.

So if JESUS had assigned the task of taking care of His mother to His disciple, then that assures that He had no biological brothers and sisters.

John was not a stranger to Jesus or to Mary.

This is not marriage - bringing a strager into the family line.

 

[dianaiad]

dianaiad,

You are totally wrong on this one, here in our Arabic culture we have 100% the principle of “primogeniture”, we practice it day to day, BUT one of the concepts of it, is NEVER let a stranger take care of your mother or sister EVEN by the power of the eldest son.

Moreover, anther concept is the person marrying his cousin so that he doesn’t allow a stranger into the family line.

So if JESUS had assigned the task of taking care of His mother to His disciple, then that assures that He had no biological brothers and sisters.

I’m certain that your culture is as you say it is. It is, however, 2000 years removed from that of Jesus’ Jewish culture. I’m not claiming here that it WAS different, because I honestly do not know. However, you are making the same mistake that the folks over here are making; assuming that Jesus would do something within HIS culture BECAUSE we would do it in ours.

As for your own culture; are there no circumstances whatsoever in which someone might ask a non-family member to care for a female relative, in preference to siblings? None?

For instance…if the siblings lived far away, or were in the military, or in jail…or completely irresponsible, or were, perhaps, missionaries with a very different task to perform, or if there were other factors that made this job impossible for a sibling to undertake?

m’just asking. you see, not making a claim one way or the other.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Jesus knew the heart of John. Also, Jesus did only what His Father told Him to do.

Using the logic of not knowing John, why did He give Mary to him anyway? Why didn’t He bring her to Heaven with Him in Acts 1? That would solve some of the mysteries.

BTW, would you leave the care of your mother to a brother that was a heathen if you could give her care into the hands of a wonderful catholic friend of yours?

Joh 7:5 For even His brothers did not believe in Him.

Interesting verse:

Joh 2:12 ¶ After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.

Look, I realize you want me to believe that Jesus had brothers. I have tried and tried to find anything at all that would be plausible to support your position. I just can not.
This is not to say you are mistaken, I am just telling you that I can not find enough information to support your position.

Help me out with this from the CCC if you are willing to stick this out with me.

Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus”, are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls “the other Mary”.158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159 (CCC 500)

157 Cf. Mk 3:31-35; 6:3; 1 Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19.
158 Mt 13:55; 28:1; cf. Mt 27:56.
159 Cf. Gen 13:8; 14:16; 29:15; etc.

I just think it is a problem in translating the word correctly, or more specifically than the word was used at that time. We could be forcing an interpretation of “brother” in a way we use it today.

 

[Sam_777]

As for your own culture; are there no circumstances whatsoever in which someone might ask a non-family member to care for a female relative, in preference to siblings? None?

For instance…if the siblings lived far away, or were in the military, or in jail…or completely irresponsible, or were, perhaps, missionaries with a very different task to perform, or if there were other factors that made this job impossible for a sibling to undertake?

No way…, that would be considered adultery (even when there is no sex involved), read this story which has happened recently in Saudi Arabia where someone was taking care of a 75 old widow then the authority arrested all of them and lashed her.

 

[Todd520]

No way…, that would be considered adultery (even when there is no sex involved), read this story which has happened recently in Saudi Arabia where someone was taking care of a 75 old widow then the authority arrested all of them and lashed her.

Sam, why do you feel current Saui culture represents Jewish culture 2,000 years ago?

I have no background on the Jewish culture, but also wonder what the Roman influence might have been, at the time.