taking Protestant theology seriously

[jmcrae]

The “60,000” forms of theology is something that you may want to really do some research on…it is claims like this that cause most Protestants to make the stereotypical comments they make about Catholics…if a Catholic makes statements like this…it hurts your cause…

I realize that there are probably not 60,000 distinct Protestant denominations - I was using hyperbole.

However, there are a few dozen main “church families” in Protestantism - and more than one is a sin against John 17.

 

[ctos]

I disagree that it is useless for a Catholic to be knowledgable of Protestant theology too.

Which two or three areas would you suggest I start with?

Actually, if you can answer this I’d be interested: Which two or three areas of Protestant theology do you think have had the most impact on Catholics?

 

[ctos]

When I was a kid, one day I got an access to this room at my parish. It was like a library for priests. A very thick book on a desk having an image of Buddhist on.

So, you know that even priests read about other religions too.

Yes, and Vatican II tells us we must learn about Protestants: “We must get to know the outlook of our separated brethren. To achieve this purpose, study is of necessity required, and this must be pursued with a sense of realism and good will. Catholics, who already have a proper grounding, need to acquire a more adequate understanding of the respective doctrines of our separated brethren, their history, their spiritual and liturgical life, their religious psychology and general background.” (Unitatis Redintegratio #9)

 

[junk]

I don’t mind learning about Protestant beliefs and I think they’re often quite interesting in their variety, from Calvinists to Arminians to OSAS to believer’s baptism to consubstantiation to all sorts of unusual Pentecostal beliefs. It helps in communicating with Protestants because we usually use language differently. In addition, in learning what Protestants believe and how our beliefs mesh and differ, I gain a clearer picture of what we as Catholics believe.

 

[mcs7474]

I disagree that it is useless for a Catholic to be knowledgable of Protestant theology. Know your enemy and know yourself. Not that I consider Protestants my enemies by any stretch of the imagination, but I do consider protestant theology contrary to the directive of Christ. I have used knowledge of Protestant theology to help a couple people flirting with Protestantism to return home to the one Holy and Catholic apostolic church. It led August home to us!

Amen. This is completly true, if you can understand thier point of view and the CORRECT them, then studying thier theology was well worth it.

 

[Catholic_Mike]

Not to be offensive to any protestants, but the way I see it is like this. Imagine you’re watching Swan Lake, and in the fourth act, some guy named Frederick Barnes gets up out the of the audience, stops the show, kicks out all the original actors, and creates an alternate ending involving space monsters and a mechanical Prince Sigfried set to “The Final Countdown” by Europe.

That play sounds incredible!!!

Joking aside, if a person is going to try an engage in a discussion or debate on the subject of religion, they should probably have an acedemic understanding of the other side. How frustrating is it when Protestants break out the “how can you believe the Pope is perfect” sort of things?

 

[jmcrae]

That play sounds incredible!!!

Joking aside, if a person is going to try an engage in a discussion or debate on the subject of religion, they should probably have an acedemic understanding of the other side. How frustrating is it when Protestants break out the “how can you believe the Pope is perfect” sort of things?

Yes, but if you don’t know what someone’s religion teaches, then, rather than engage in stereotypes, instead, focus on what your religion teaches.

Again, I don’t see a whole lot of need to focus on error, unless it presents itself from the outside.

 

[helly]

Yes, but if you don’t know what someone’s religion teaches, then, rather than engage in stereotypes, instead, focus on what your religion teaches.

Again, I don’t see a whole lot of need to focus on error, unless it presents itself from the outside.

But surely it would help to have an understanding of where a person is coming from and what some of their beliefs are if you’re going to have a productive discussion. Otherwise you won’t necessarily know why they’re having issues with a particular doctrine, or why it’s difficult to shed light on something for them. You can end up talking at cross purposes and butting heads and getting frustrated with each other.

For example: if you don’t know that a Protestant has the Sola Scriptura view, then you’re not going to understand why they don’t put any stock in your arguments for the Catholic faith if you’re using tradition or other religious teaching to back up your arguments.

How can it hurt to have an understanding of what someone believes, even if it’s an erroneous view, if it’s going to help both you and them? Besides, if you take their view seriously, they’re more likely to take yours seriously.

 

[jmcrae]

But surely it would help to have an understanding of where a person is coming from and what some of their beliefs are if you’re going to have a productive discussion. Otherwise you won’t necessarily know why they’re having issues with a particular doctrine, or why it’s difficult to shed light on something for them. You can end up talking at cross purposes and butting heads and getting frustrated with each other.

For example: if you don’t know that a Protestant has the Sola Scriptura view, then you’re not going to understand why they don’t put any stock in your arguments for the Catholic faith if you’re using tradition or other religious teaching to back up your arguments.

Yes, but I would let them bring it up, and let them explain it.

If I have 20 people in the group, each from a different background, I don’t have time to research each and every one of those 20 different religions in depth, and then argue from 20 different points of view in my presentation.

It’s better if I simply give the presentation from the Catholic point of view, using Catholic assumptions (rather than try to argue in advance against 20 different non-Catholic assumptions that may or may not even be held by the participants themselves), and then let them use the question period or breaks in the lecture itself for them to bring up any issues that they may have.

Believe me, they are not shy about bringing these things up, but it’s easier to have them bring up their issues in the question period or during the presentation itself, rather than try to anticipate them when I’m preparing the presentation.

I encourage them to ask questions as they think of them, so that we can deal with any problems or misunderstandings as they occur, rather than letting them fester, and rather than have someone be labouring under a misunderstanding for the entire period of the presentation, and end up missing the whole point of it.

This makes for a somewhat more casual atmosphere than the “sit down and keep quiet” mode that most of us are used to, but I find that it keeps them engaged with the process, and more of them seem to come through the process successfully doing it this way, than not letting them ask questions in the middle, or trying to anticipate what they will think or say, since by the time they get to me, they have rejected most of their former religion, anyway, and it’s impossible to know in advance which assumptions they have retained, and which assumptions they have rejected, until they actually tell me what they are having trouble with, and what they are finding attractive about the Church. Each individual is different, and even those coming in from the same religion will often have different issues from each other, as well as the rest of the group.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

To me (a convert), “seriously” means courteously, but nothing more. From Luther’s “snow covered dung hill” to Olsteen et al’s “prosperity gospel,” it’s all error to one degree or another (the elements of truth contained in their theology are already contained in the Church’s fullness of Truth). In our dialogue with Protestants, however, we owe it to them (for their souls’ sake, as well as Holy Mother Church, who we represent in that moment) to be courteous and non-mocking. Dialogue can lead to understanding and conversion. And Catholics need to understand WHY Protestants teach what they teach. For example, “sola fide” (regardless of what Luther may have said) is not taken by any Protestant I’ve ever known as “salvation on the cheap,” but rather as an affirmation of man’s complete helplessness before God and utter need of Christ’s gratuitous sacrifice, upon which ALONE may man depend as a sufficient sacrifice or recompense to God’s offended Honor and Justice. Trent actually AFFIRMED that, that we could add nothing to Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross. So that’s one way we talk past each other. On the other hand, you can’t seem to convince the most attentive Protestant, at least of the fundamentalist or evangelical frame of mind, that Catholics do not now teach nor have we ever taught that man can earn his way into Heaven. So the talking past each other goes both ways.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

I live in an area where Catholics make up just over 2% of the population. Down here you darn well better know what the Protestants, particularly Southern Baptists, believe and why they believe it because 98% of the people that you, and more importantly your children, come into contact with will be Protestants.

How can I tell my 10 year old how he should respond to the question, “Are you saved?” if I don’t know what the person asking my kid means by “saved.” How would I know how to discuss the errors in his friends’ thinking if I don’t know what they are thinking?

It’s better to be educated than ignorant.

 

[BrooklynBoy200]

If you are a Catholic, then how could you take Protestant theology seriously?

Not to be offensive to any protestants, but the way I see it is like this. Imagine you’re watching Swan Lake, and in the fourth act, some guy named Frederick Barnes gets up out the of the audience, stops the show, kicks out all the original actors, and creates an alternate ending involving space monsters and a mechanical Prince Sigfried set to “The Final Countdown” by Europe.

So yeah, that’s how I see it. You’re just thinking- ‘huh?’. I was raised Protestant but then when I started looking at things seriously, I was really confused how they could change the course of something that had been around for quite awhile and turn it into something nearly completely different.

That is a good way of thinking of it.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I am a protestant eek: shock) but I couldn’t vote because out of these three choices:

1. Catholics should take Protestant theology seriously, to help Protestants.
2. Catholics should take Protestant theology seriously, in case we’re missing something.
3. Catholics can safely ignore Protestant theology.

There were none that I completely agreed with.

The first one “Catholics should take Protestant theology seriously, to help Protestants.” To help us? This may not have been intended as an insult but it kind of came out that way. I, in no way, feel as if I need help to understand my own faith or what may be wrong with it in the catholic view. I love God with all of my Heart, Mind, and Soul as He commands and I TRY to love my neighbor which is the second greatest commandment. The way the option was phrased was as if I am an idiot and need to be helped in my relationship with God by someone who is much closer to Him and needs to guide me on my path. I wouldn’t say that about my catholic brothers and sisters as I know that God puts us on the path to find Him and we each do it the best way we know how. I will just have to say that I don’t feel as if I need the help from anyone who may or may not think they are theologically better than me. Sorry for the rant… you probably didn’t mean it this way but this is what came to mind when I read it…

The second choice “Catholics should take Protestant theology seriously, in case we’re missing something.” Why do you have to take anyone else’s beliefs seriously as if one or the other is missing something? I do not believe the catholic faith lacks in anything just as I don’t believe that my faith lacks in anything. Why does one or the other have to lack? God is there with each of us who truly seek Him. If He is there we lack nothing.

The third choice “Catholics can safely ignore Protestant theology.” Yes, you can ignore us. But we will always be there. You can ignore our beliefs but they will always be there. As I have said before if we truly seek God with all of our hearts and minds and souls the He is there with us. Guiding us and helping us. If we find Him in the catholic faith then that is where we should be. If we find Him in a protestant faith then that is where we should be. No more no less… Go where God leads you not where a mere human thinks you should be.

I vote for a 4th choice because just as I respect the catholic faith and have no inclination to change it I expect the same from you… Here is the 4th choice “Catholics and Protestants should take each other’s theology seriously and know that God is working with each of them to draw them closer to Him. As it is important to know your family and where they come from it is important to know where your brothers and sisters are coming from so that you can relate to them through God your Father.”

 

[Singinbeauty]

Did I just make too much sense or has everyone abandoned this thread out of boredom?

 

[jmcrae]

Did I just make too much sense or has everyone abandoned this thread out of boredom?

My own response was that we can safely ignore Protestant theology.

When I was being catechized, I learned a lot more from Catholics who had no idea that Protestantism is even still in existence, than from those who thought they knew what I believed in and tried to respond to what they thought were my beliefs.

 

[aurora77]

I live in an area where Catholics make up just over 2% of the population. Down here you darn well better know what the Protestants, particularly Southern Baptists, believe and why they believe it because 98% of the people that you, and more importantly your children, come into contact with will be Protestants.

How can I tell my 10 year old how he should respond to the question, “Are you saved?” if I don’t know what the person asking my kid means by “saved.” How would I know how to discuss the errors in his friends’ thinking if I don’t know what they are thinking?

It’s better to be educated than ignorant.

Same here–only we’re at 7%. I think it’s vital for Catholics in the area to be familiar with the issues that they will be questioned about. They need to fully understand the Church’s teaching as well as have a basic idea of what they’re up against.

The first one “Catholics should take Protestant theology seriously, to help Protestants.” To help us? This may not have been intended as an insult but it kind of came out that way. I, in no way, feel as if I need help to understand my own faith or what may be wrong with it in the catholic view. I love God with all of my Heart, Mind, and Soul as He commands and I TRY to love my neighbor which is the second greatest commandment. The way the option was phrased was as if I am an idiot and need to be helped in my relationship with God by someone who is much closer to Him and needs to guide me on my path. I wouldn’t say that about my catholic brothers and sisters as I know that God puts us on the path to find Him and we each do it the best way we know how. I will just have to say that I don’t feel as if I need the help from anyone who may or may not think they are theologically better than me. Sorry for the rant… you probably didn’t mean it this way but this is what came to mind when I read it…

It’s not that you are wrong or an idiot or to be looked down upon, but unless you are receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord, then there is something missing in your faith. I know many, many devout protestants. They are wonderful people who love God and their neighbor, but their relationship with Him could be so much more. They miss out on that intimate relationship that He offers and don’t even realize what they’re missing.

 

[Maratom]

What about taking Protestants seriously on the things we agree on?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here’s a related question: How should we feel about Catholics who like to be familiar with Protestant theology? In a way that’s an even more pressing problem. I have to get along well with my fellow Catholics, and I always cringe inwardly when they happily chirp about Calvinist this or Lutheran that…

The value of an idea is more important than its origin.​

If St.Thomas Aquinas is not blamed for drawing upon Muslims such as Avicenna, Jews such as Moses Maimonides, heretics such as Tertullian, or heathens such as Aristotle (& he isn’t, even by very “Traditional” Catholics) - why is it wrong for Catholics to read similar authors now ? If St. Augustine could read Tyconius (who was a Donatist), or if Cyprian could admire Tertullian - what reasoning puts Protestants beyond the pale for us ?

If we have to avoid reading Protestants, how far is this to be taken ? ##

It isn’t that I assume that they agree with the Protestant theology, but they’re so chirpy that I cannot be sure that they really appreciate the need to embrace Catholic theology. I worry that they may be blending theologies simply because they feel that it would be a nifty thing to do. I don’t necessarily trust their ability to tell what is true and what is misleading. I think the best reason not to study Protestant theology, at least at first and for a long time, is that one may not be prepared to spot the problems.

When bank personnel are prepared to spot forgeries, they attend a ten-day course. For the first nine days, they spend all day, each day, counting legitimate notes. On the last day, false notes are slipped into the stacks. Only late in the course, in other words, are problem notes given as examples.

But, as long as one can keep oneself straight, chirpy fellow Catholics aside, it is important to be familiar with where different branches of Protestantism err. Even more than that, however, we must recall that individual Protestants probably don’t know their own theology all that well, and will tend to fall not so much to the peculiar errors of their sect, but to the more general problems of relativism, modernism, not believing in palpable guiding authority, etc.

About this -​

I read Protestant theology - a lot of it; &

• I greatly admire certain Protestant theologians
• I used to be an Anglican, & Anglicanism has a very rich theological tradition (that is an advantage in being comprehensive)
• Theology is endlessly fascinating, because it takes in everything from moral theology, Biblical commentary, philosophy, liturgy, & Church history (to name just a few types)
  As for relativism & the like - it depends what is meant; every confessor who does not treat very different penitents in exactly the same way, is in some sense a “relativist”: & rightly so; a child of ten and a sister aged eighty are unlikely to have exactly the same temptations. Each person has to be taken separately; this is why there is a science of casuistry, & why there has been casuistry not only in Catholicism, but also in Anglicanism & Calvinism. ##

 

[Don_Quixote]

There is no good reason for Catholics to study Protestant theology. Truth explains truth. There is almost never any good reason to make reference to an error, in order to teach the Truth.

My experience is that it just muddies the waters and confuses people even more, since most people only hear about 10% of what you tell them, and they almost always latch on to the error, instead of focusing on the truth.

**Protestants must be evil, if they latch on to errors.

It must be OK to judge Protestants as they are really evil.

They are so evil that they are not interested in the truth. **

 

[jmcrae]

Protestants must be evil, if they latch on to errors.

I was actually referring to my students - it’s a bad idea for me to mention Protestant errors in my classes, because it confuses my students. My students are good Catholics, or at least, they hope to become good Catholics. But they confuse easily.

It must be OK to judge Protestants as they are really evil.

I don’t judge individual Protestants. I assume and hope that they are sincerely doing the very best that they can.

They are so evil that they are not interested in the truth.

They don’t have access to it. Their ancestors cut them off from it, and then lied to them about where it is to be found.