Taking questions from Sabbatarians...

[Shibolet]

You don’t know that, Shibolet. You are only taking the word of a fallible pastor who proclaimed this.

But you never read in a single page of Scripture that Peter “never had anything to do with the changing of the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday.”

That is a man-made tradition that you’ve succumbed to.

All right PRmerger, I am all ears to the enlightenment you can share with me. Please, go right ahead and show me in your NT where Peter had anything whatsoever to do with the change of the Sabbath to Sunday as a day to keep it holy. Paul gives more for an evidence
but more in terms that it meant nothing to him to keep any day one pleased or even not any day at all. I guess, to him, it was all nonsense. (Rom. 14:5,6) Probably, it was on this lack of a Pauline opinion, that the Church felt free to make the change.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shibolet,

I know you know better then this - and you are exptected to do your best when on CAF - just like everyone else.

A reference is not the same as a supposition or assumption or any other item that does not really address the issue. You know this.

The idea you are bring out about Constintine is totally gratitutious. Yes, he did stop the persecutions that were going on from the 1st Century.- but, calling this a ‘payback’ should just call out to you as demanding a reference to support such an outrageous statement.

The truth of the matter is that your statement, "…the change “must have been effected in the 4th Century” is totally defenseless. Now, since you have empoverished your argument - let me provide you with a reference from St. Justin Martyr in about 160AD that idenfies Sunday as the day of worship: earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html Take the time to read the entire reference on this very Early Church Father - it may clear up some other apparent misunderstandings.

God bless

tqualey;10099314:

Hi, Shibolet,

I really would like your reference for the Sabbath being changed by the 4th Century Church.

Thank you for a truly novel (at least for me) approach to the Pharisees - and their effort to save Jesus…

God bless

Tqualey, I said that the change “must have been effected in the 4th Century.” That’s when Christianity was adopted by Cosntantine as the official religion of the Roman Empire in 312 ACE as, so to speak, a form of payback to Constanine since the first day of the week was already observed as the day of the Sun in Rome. The Seventh-Day Adventists have a few documented evidences of how that change reached its official final stage.

 

[PRmerger]

All right PRmerger, I am all ears to the enlightenment you can share with me. Please, go right ahead and show me in your NT where Peter had anything whatsoever to do with the change of the Sabbath to Sunday as a day to keep it holy. Paul gives more for an evidence
but more in terms that it meant nothing to him to keep any day one pleased or even not any day at all. I guess, to him, it was all nonsense. (Rom. 14:5,6) Probably, it was on this lack of a Pauline opinion, that the Church felt free to make the change.

Before I respond, I’d like to get some things straight regarding your pastor’s understanding of Scripture.

Is he of the opinion: if it’s not in Scripture it is to be forbidden?

Or is he of the opinion: if it’s not in Scripture it is permitted.

And, of course, I need to know which paradigm is the one you espouse (if you are permitted to disagree with your pastor’s paradigm.)

 

[Shibolet]

Hi, Shibolet,

I know you know better then this - and you are exptected to do your best when on CAF - just like everyone else.

A reference is not the same as a supposition or assumption or any other item that does not really address the issue. You know this.

The idea you are bring out about Constintine is totally gratitutious. Yes, he did stop the persecutions that were going on from the 1st Century.- but, calling this a ‘payback’ should just call out to you as demanding a reference to support such an outrageous statement.

The truth of the matter is that your statement, "…the change “must have been effected in the 4th Century” is totally defenseless. Now, since you have empoverished your argument - let me provide you with a reference from St. Justin Martyr in about 160AD that idenfies Sunday as the day of worship: earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html Take the time to read the entire reference on this very Early Church Father - it may clear up some other apparent misunderstandings.

God bless
Shibolet;10110458:
Tqualey, you must try to understand that to identify a day as the day of worship does not mean at all that Sunday had been set aside as the one to replace the Jewish Sabbath. The reference from St. Justin Martyr in 160 ACE, does not imply at all that official change.

Hey, there is something else you must allow into your mind. I have nothing against Christians observing Sunday instead of the Jewish Sabbath. I am conscious that the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy was for the Jews only. Christians can choose any day or no day at all. As this issue is concerned, I agree 100% with Paul. (Rom 14:5,6)

 

[Shibolet]

Before I respond, I’d like to get some things straight regarding your pastor’s understanding of Scripture.

Is he of the opinion: if it’s not in Scripture it is to be forbidden?

Or is he of the opinion: if it’s not in Scripture it is permitted.

And, of course, I need to know which paradigm is the one you espouse (if you are permitted to disagree with your pastor’s paradigm.)

First and foremost, I don’t have pastors. Second, I have a mind of my own. I don’t go for the fallacy to do what so-called authorities say or do. And last, I am discussing with you what the Bible says. If you can share with me something without contradictions, we have a deal.

 

[PRmerger]

First and foremost, I don’t have pastors. Second, I have a mind of my own.

Fair enough.

I don’t go for the fallacy to do what so-called authorities say or do.

Well, is it of your own mind that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos? Or are you going by the “so-called authorities” to tell you this?

If it’s not through these “authorities”, then how is it you know that the Gospel of Mark is inspired, Shibolet?

And last, I am discussing with you what the Bible says.

Indeed.

But I need to know what your position is regarding “what the Bible says”.

Is it:
A: if the Bible is silent on an issue, then it is permitted?

Or is it:

B: if the Bible is silent on an issue, then it is forbidden?

And how do you know which paradigm to use? Which verse in Scripture tells you to follow paradigm A or paradigm B?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shibolet,

Not to jump ahead of PRmerger (she does quite nicely on her own… ) let me share a thought with you. [Ah, that was the way I started out … but the family came in for an unannounced party (I hit 66… ) and there were numerous posts before I could post this. I still think it has valid comments, so, here goes… )

The New Testament is not just a recorded history of what took place. It does record some of what took place - and it accomplishes other tasks, too. Claiming that something exists today because it was not mentioned in the NT needs furhter explanation. And, even if a doctrine is mentioned - it does not mean that every group believes it. For example, the 7DA and a few other groups do not believe in there being Three Persons in One God (the Trinity). Here is a link: http://www.comparativebiblestudylessons.com/Lessons/2d-scriptural-basis-trinity.html

My suggestion is to try another approach - if something does not exist in the NT does not mean it is non-esistent. There are other documents to research besides the Bible. Honest. The Catholic Church counts its beginning from Matthew 16, when Christ founded His Church on Peter. Now, interestingly enough, Christ did not call it the Catholic Church - and it is not mentioned in the Bible. By that same token, however, Christ did not call His Church, The Way, either… and there is a reference to this group because Saul of Tarsus was persecuting these followers of Christ. So, now what?

So, if you are interested in knowing what took place and when it did - your best bet is to go to the source. Anyone going to groups like the 7DA - a group founded in 1863 by error prone humans like Ellen White - is not going to anythink like an orginal source. Seriously, looking at her background and education - and head injury - what kind of scholarship can you possibly expect. About all she seems to have experience in is anti-Catholic rhetoric.

As far as I can see, looking at where one goes for solid information pretty well determines the kind and quality of the informaiton you will get. Ellen White never claimed to be a biblical scholar or educated researcher in any discipline. I think Mattew 7:16 pretty well sums up where and where not to seek valid informaiton.

God bless

All right PRmerger, I am all ears to the enlightenment you can share with me. Please, go right ahead and show me in your NT where Peter had anything whatsoever to do with the change of the Sabbath to Sunday as a day to keep it holy. Paul gives more for an evidence
but more in terms that it meant nothing to him to keep any day one pleased or even not any day at all. I guess, to him, it was all nonsense. (Rom. 14:5,6) Probably, it was on this lack of a Pauline opinion, that the Church felt free to make the change.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, Shibolet,

Not to jump ahead of PRmerger (she does quite nicely on her own… ) let me share a thought with you. [Ah, that was the way I started out … but the family came in for an unannounced party (I hit 66…

Well, friend, HAPPY, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! :flowers:
[/quote]

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

Thank you … about 2 years ago I was feeling about 30 … Ah, but today … well… I’m feeling 65! This semester was a bit rough… but, it is Christmas break and I am relaxing now… By January… i may be in the 40 range!

God bless

Well, friend, HAPPY, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! :flowers:

 

[Porknpie]

Hi, PRmerger,

Thank you … about 2 years ago I was feeling about 30 … Ah, but today … well… I’m feeling 65! This semester was a bit rough… but, it is Christmas break and I am relaxing now… By January… i may be in the 40 range!

God bless

Tom, happy birthday. Remember the Beatles?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ztoSUhbNntQ

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Porknpie,

Thank you very much!

Yes, I remember them very well - thanks for the link.

God bless

Tom, happy birthday. Remember the Beatles?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ztoSUhbNntQ

 

[Pythons]

Protector, the following question I have for you has a direct bearing on what you’ve said previously about the beliefs you share with other Christians that identify themselves as belonging to X,Y, & Z Denominations.

The Question: Do you believe that it would have been possible for Christ to sin and loose His salvation?…
…In other words do you believe that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to fail in saving us**?**

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shibolet,

Hi, Shibolet,

I really am trying to understand just what it is you are trying to communicate here. St. Justin Martyr did not make the change or officially proclaim the change… or probably did not have anything to do with the change. But, in 160AD it was such a common event that he simply marks its existence in passing. A solid 155 years before Constintine - Sunday was the established Day of Worship for this very young Catholic Church. In reality you are still shooting from the hip - long on opinion but short on reference material.

Actually, I have allowed much into my mind… One of those items is that if you are really as indifferent as you claim to be, why come up with unsubstantiated statements about Constintine and some type of ‘pay back’ for Sunday. This to my mind show not only a real interest but also a real agenda.

I am very happy with your agreement with Paul’s statement in Romans 14 - maybe you would enjoy reading the who chapter so that there are no context issues… here is a link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Romans_14 . Actually, I was thinking that if you thought so highly of this section in Romans, you may like to know that it was the Catholic Church in about 400AD that established the Canon of Sacred Scripture that you are citing.

God bless

Tqualey, you must try to understand that to identify a day as the day of worship does not mean at all that Sunday had been set aside as the one to replace the Jewish Sabbath. The reference from St. Justin Martyr in 160 ACE, does not imply at all that official change.

Hey, there is something else you must allow into your mind. I have nothing against Christians observing Sunday instead of the Jewish Sabbath. I am conscious that the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy was for the Jews only. Christians can choose any day or no day at all. As this issue is concerned, I agree 100% with Paul. (Rom 14:5,6)

 

[Lucky_Catholic1]

One of the lastest books that was written is the Book of John & Revelation(not in the Vaticanus Manuscript). The Book of John being written ~85 - 105 ad.
John did not mention once to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath.

Around 200 ad the people wanted a day to remember the day of the Resurrection.
They start to celebrate it once a year.
At around 300 ad Jewish religion was banned and the Jews was prosecuted by the Roman Empire.
One of the issues of this was that Christians were keeping Sabbath alongside the Jews.
So by the Council of Laodicea Canon Law 29 was passed that banned Christians from keeping Sabbath, and to start keeping Sunday instead.
By the year 375 ad the Roman Empire completely banned to keeping of Sabbath.

I have evidence for all of this, which is an issue, if I quote the Bible some people will arque, if I quote a Catholic post it will be arque against, if I quote something else it will be arqued against.
So I won’t give any quote to anything.
I’ll let you all research for yourself.

 

[PRmerger]

One of the lastest books that was written is the Book of John & Revelation(not in the Vaticanus Manuscript). The Book of John being written ~85 - 105 ad.
John did not mention once to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath.

John doesn’t mention a lot of things that Christians believe, Lucky.

Are you saying that if it’s not mentioned in the Gospel of John or Revelation that Christians are not required to believe it?

 

[Lucky_Catholic1]

John did not mention once to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath.

Nothing more, nothing less.
That’s all I say.

 

[Lucky_Catholic1]

but, Jewish washings and identification of clean and ‘unclean’ foods, circmucising males on the 8th day - and stoning those who do not honor God

Off-topic, I will be reported again for this if I respond.

 

[PRmerger]

John did not mention once to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath.

Nothing more, nothing less.
That’s all I say.

And John doesn’t mention, once, anything at all about the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, Moses, Noah…

According to your “nothing more, nothing less”…that means that we cannot proclaim this.

Do you see where your paradigm is leading you to, Lucky?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lucky,

This is really quite an amazing balancing act you have presented to us - claiming sensitivity to criticism from those who call for you to produce references - you demonstrate a genuine responsiveness to their needs by ignoring them - and then making still more unsubstantiated statements. Seriously, manipulating the written word this way is nothing short of breath-taking. But, allow me to try and tell you a bit about expected scholarship. And, the bottom line it has nothing to do with people arguing about what has been said.

A person gets an idea - really does not make any difference what it is …oooooooooh, how about that: “There is no significant difference between Sabbath worship of God by Christians and the worship of God on Sunday by Christians”. On the surface, there seems to be a division between worship done on the Sabbath and worship done on Sunday - and the results of your research is to provide some insight into this matter - possibly, even resolving it.

The honest scholar looks for every credible source to find out what is going on. He writes down what he found and note the reference for each item.

Once the data has been assembeled, he tests his hypothesis. Now, there are several ways to do this such testing - but, all involving looking at the population of those who profess to follow Christ and find out which day they worship. Then from each group, inquire why they worship on this particular day. Possibly, when the various groups (denominations) were historicall established would be a meaningful criteria.

Personally, I have been partial to the statistical test for significance called ‘Chi Square’ and my guess a 2 by 2 table could be set up: something like - Christian (before 15th Century) and Christian (after 15th Century) for the columns. Then for the rows: Sabbath worship and Non-Sabbath worship. Hmmmmm… I think that would do - at least for starters - it is simply, straighforward and deals with the data. Now, use the formula and run the numbers and see if there is a statistical difference between the two groups. From what I have seen there is an excellent chance that there is a statistical difference - and the null hypothesis has not been proven.

Then you publish your results - along with your methodology and your references and have others look at your work (ah, this is where it may be painful … some may not actually agree…) and there is an honest discussion.

Admittedly, such a rigorous presentation takes a lot of fun out of shooting from the hip - but, the good news is that what you have done is open to all as an honest effort to produce more light then heat on this topic.

But, there is another option - and, this certainly would be acceptable with me… Provide your references and let us see what you have - and you can move out of the desert of unsubtantiated opinion into the lush garden of thoughtful exchange.

God bless

One of the lastest books that was written is the Book of John & Revelation(not in the Vaticanus Manuscript). The Book of John being written ~85 - 105 ad.
John did not mention once to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath.

Around 200 ad the people wanted a day to remember the day of the Resurrection.
They start to celebrate it once a year.
At around 300 ad Jewish religion was banned and the Jews was prosecuted by the Roman Empire.
One of the issues of this was that Christians were keeping Sabbath alongside the Jews.
So by the Council of Laodicea Canon Law 29 was passed that banned Christians from keeping Sabbath, and to start keeping Sunday instead.
By the year 375 ad the Roman Empire completely banned to keeping of Sabbath.

I have evidence for all of this, which is an issue, if I quote the Bible some people will arque, if I quote a Catholic post it will be arque against, if I quote something else it will be arqued against.
So I won’t give any quote to anything.
I’ll let you all research for yourself.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lucky,

In no way do I want anyone to break any rules or get into any trouble based on a question I have asked. I certainly respect your response.

Ah, but you can tell me WHY you think you would be going off topic on the Sabbath thread question I asked? It honestly seemed like a logical challenge on why this particular OT command would be observed and similar OT commands not observed.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

Off-topic, I will be reported again for this if I respond.