Talk of Latin inspired a little arguing

[Magnum_V8]

I had my first dose of a face-to-face confrontation over the Latin Mass yesterday at my parish’s final RCIA meeting. I joined their RCIA team this year…and what a disappointment it was. But I’ll save that for another time.

I mentioned to our pastor that I started serving the Latin Mass at another parish. When I told him I served High Mass on Easter, his eyes got big, he raised his brows and said, “Wow, a High Mass!” So, I take it that he’s not so dead set against the Latin Mass.

At one point during the get-together, the RCIA lay-leader asked if I would be available to serve funerals that come up on Saturdays. I said that I was. Meanwhile, her husband said, “yeah, he probably could since he’s started serving here [at our Novus Ordo].” The husband wasn’t there when I had mentioned about serving the Latin Mass.

Our priest jumped in immediately and said, “sure he can…he serves the Latin High Mass.” Thanks, Padre.

The husband responded, “didn’t learn Latin as a kid, and have no interest in it now.” BTW, he’s a convert from Lutheranism about 7 years ago. And he’s told me that he has problems with a lot of the “Catholic” things.

He went on, quite aggressively, I might add: “I think its a mistake to go backwards. Everything is fine the way it is. No one can understand the Latin. It should be in the vernacular.”

It was silent for a minute, and I could feel my temperature rise…its the Irish in me. I broke the silence with a nice, calm response: “Well, they have missals with the Latin on one side and the English on the other.” Another RCIA team member --an older lady-- agreed with me. All in all, besides me, 3 of the 4 other RCIA lay members said they loved the “old Latin Mass.”

The husband responded: “But you don’t know where in the missal the priest is.”

I said: “They have these red booklet type missals that show pictures of the priest, where he is and his posture. My little son follows along with that book.”

Well, that killed the conversation…except for his wife asking our pastor if we were going to have the Latin Mass…so innocently she asked. But our pastor kind of chuckled and just said, “no, I don’t think so.”

I think our pastor is capable of celebrating the TLM. At one point in the conversation, he remarked about his childhood and getting kicked by the lead server because he didn’t bow toward the priest at “…et tibi, pater…” during the Confiteor.

Sorry for the long post. I thought it was funny, though. Maybe there is some hope for the TLM at my parish.

 

[JRKH]

Actually it sounds cautiously encouraging.
It actually backs up what I’ve been saying. Some will be against the EF, others for it, but most will not have a strong opinion either way.
I like that you were able to basically shut down this fellow pretty quickly. It will give him some things to consider about his position. At least he is better educated.
It also sounds like you have a good pastor.

By the way, when he said “no one understands the Latin” you could have responded, “Well I do and I suspect Father here does, so you can’t say 'no one understands”.

Peace
James

 

[theistgal]

Why not take a short video (or even audio - Gregorian Chant rules!) of one of the Latin Masses you serve at, and offer to show it next time your RCIA team gets together? Who knows, most of them may just shrug and say, “so what?” but one or two may decide to attend and see for themselves.

 

[ibkc]

Something somewhat similar happened in my RCIA class. In the course of speaking about another topic, something to do with Church history, the deacon mentioned that a nearby parish offers the Mass in Latin. He said it cheerfully in an “isn’t that interesting” tone, but aside from that he didn’t editorialize about it one way or the other. And one of my fellow students, also a convert from Lutheranism, actually got angry. He interrupted the deacon with “What? Why? That’s terrible! That makes no sense! They shouldn’t be allowed!” He was very excited and his face got red. I don’t quite understand this kind of reaction, but whatever.

 

[Magnum_V8]

By the way, when he said “no one understands the Latin” you could have responded, “Well I do and I suspect Father here does, so you can’t say 'no one understands”.

Peace
James

Darn. Yes, that would’ve solved that problem. As for shutting him down, maybe I sinned, but I intentionally threw that comment at him about my 7 year old son being able to follow along using the pictures. In all honesty, I meant for it to sound like, “well, if a seven year old can follow along…”

Maybe Padre and I will have to have a talk about that…mea culpa.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Why not take a short video (or even audio - Gregorian Chant rules!) of one of the Latin Masses you serve at, and offer to show it next time your RCIA team gets together? Who knows, most of them may just shrug and say, “so what?” but one or two may decide to attend and see for themselves.

I do have a video of a local High Mass that I attended. I did plan on letting my pastor have a look at it.

RCIA is over at our parish…until this fall, that is, if anyone is planning on entering into the faith at our parish this fall.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Something somewhat similar happened in my RCIA class. In the course of speaking about another topic, something to do with Church history, the deacon mentioned that a nearby parish offers the Mass in Latin. He said it cheerfully in an “isn’t that interesting” tone, but aside from that he didn’t editorialize about it one way or the other. And one of my fellow students, also a convert from Lutheranism, actually got angry. He interrupted the deacon with “What? Why? That’s terrible! That makes no sense! They shouldn’t be allowed!” He was very excited and his face got red. I don’t quite understand this kind of reaction, but whatever.

Yeah, why the anger about it? Is it a control issue? Are they afraid that REAL Catholicism might weed out a few of the “not-so-Catholic” Catholics?

 

[ProVobis]

And one of my fellow students, also a convert from Lutheranism, actually got angry. He interrupted the deacon with “What? Why? That’s terrible! That makes no sense! They shouldn’t be allowed!” He was very excited and his face got red. I don’t quite understand this kind of reaction, but whatever.

Unfortunately there are many such individuals around. And then they wonder why a few folks want TLM-only communities.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

When I read your thread title, I said, “Uh-oh!” But, it actually sounds like things went very well!

I wouldn’t push the issue with this guy any further. He may just need some time to digest things. I mean, he may have some preconceived ideas that can’t just be argued away. The best thing you can do is be the best Novus Ordo parishioner you can be - serving the Mass, helping out where you can, and being charitable to everybody. He knows you’re one of “those Traditionalists.” When he sees you’re not spouting nonsense from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and giving people grief over how reverently they genuflect, he’ll have to realize that you’re not living in the Dark Ages.

It’s wonderful that there were others who backed up what you were saying.

 

[pnewton]

Unfortunately there are many such individuals around. And then they wonder why a few folks want TLM-only communities.

I don’t know that there are that many, any more than there are but a handful of TLM-goers who disdain the rest of Catholics. But, there always does seem to be at least one in every crowd.

 

[Magnum_V8]

When I read your thread title, I said, “Uh-oh!” But, it actually sounds like things went very well!

I wouldn’t push the issue with this guy any further. He may just need some time to digest things. I mean, he may have some preconceived ideas that can’t just be argued away. The best thing you can do is be the best Novus Ordo parishioner you can be - serving the Mass, helping out where you can, and being charitable to everybody. He knows you’re one of “those Traditionalists.” When he sees you’re not spouting nonsense from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and giving people grief over how reverently they genuflect, he’ll have to realize that you’re not living in the Dark Ages.

It’s wonderful that there were others who backed up what you were saying.

No, I didn’t plan on pushing the issue. Although I did think about sending the pics of me serving the High Mass --see my other thread-- to his wife; not to irritate him or anything, but just because she was one of 'em remarking how she loved the “old Latin Mass.” And, she’s the one that asked our pastor if we were going to start the Latin Mass.

 

[JRKH]

We’re at the other end of Ohio and worship at Sacred Heart in Cincinnati.
What a beautiful building to worship in. It was built circa 1860.

Peace
James

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

We’re at the other end of Ohio and worship at Sacred Heart in Cincinnati.
What a beautiful building to worship in. It was built circa 1860.

Peace
James

Great spaghetti dinners, too!

So, I had a weird experience at a meeting with some parishioners, tonight. We were talking about some very expensive repairs I mentioned that my husband and I go to a TLM on Sunday morning at a church that is badly in need of restoration. One woman said, “Well, if the church is falling down, that’s probably because it’s not really a Catholic church.” She said that the Latin Mass is not allowed anymore, so I must have been at some church that wasn’t really Catholic. The others at the meeting agreed. They all said that the Latin Mass wasn’t allowed any longer and that the only place you might find it would be in some odd little bad church that wasn’t really Catholic. They’d never heard of the Motu Proprio. I don’t think they’d even heard of the SSPX, to be honest. I think they just had the vague idea that there were schismatic churches that still did the Mass in Latin. I did tell them about the Motu Proprio, but I don’t think they believed me.

 

[ibkc]

Unfortunately there are many such individuals around. And then they wonder why a few folks want TLM-only communities.

The funny thing about this guy’s reaction is that the parish here that offers the TLM is in fact a FSSP/TLM-only community, and it poses no “threat” to our parish or any of the other parishes around here. And also, our parish is one of the more straightforward and orthodox in this part of the archdiocese, which is filled with Protestant/Pentecostal/megachurch style happy-clappy worship. In that, our parish actually has more in common with the FSSP parish than we do with our immediate neighboring parishes. So, this guy’s reaction to the idea that someone in the archdiocese has the audacity to utter Latin was really weird in all respects.

 

[JRKH]

Great spaghetti dinners, too!

So, I had a weird experience at a meeting with some parishioners, tonight. We were talking about some very expensive repairs I mentioned that my husband and I go to a TLM on Sunday morning at a church that is badly in need of restoration. One woman said, “Well, if the church is falling down, that’s probably because it’s not really a Catholic church.” She said that the Latin Mass is not allowed anymore, so I must have been at some church that wasn’t really Catholic. The others at the meeting agreed. They all said that the Latin Mass wasn’t allowed any longer and that the only place you might find it would be in some odd little bad church that wasn’t really Catholic. They’d never heard of the Motu Proprio. I don’t think they’d even heard of the SSPX, to be honest. I think they just had the vague idea that there were schismatic churches that still did the Mass in Latin. I did tell them about the Motu Proprio, but I don’t think they believed me.

They must be (spagetti dinners) they just had a Ravioli Dinner and the line was so long we couldn’t get in.

As to the folks who are in the dark, you will need to explain that the forms are now known as the OF and EF. The ordinary form for the usual stuff and the extraordinary for the really beautiful stuff.

Peace
James

 

[Like]

We’re at the other end of Ohio and worship at Sacred Heart in Cincinnati.
What a beautiful building to worship in. It was built circa 1860.

Peace
James

Hi James,
Sorry all, this off topic, but I just saw James’ Church & his description.
I need & want some info from you, is it ok to PM you? BTW BEAUTIFUL Church!

 

[Rabbititus]

I had a somewhat similar experience. I know someone who studied to be a priest for a few years before leaving and starting a family instead. I decided to ask if seminaries still taught Latin, because I’d heard that some did not. He said he was taught Latin, but not how to say mass in Latin. I then expressed interest in maybe seeing what a traditional Latin mass was like, and was quickly met with a rant about how “It’s just the priest mumbling to the tabernacle and the congregation having zero participation. It’s only 80 years olds who can’t let go that want it along with some of their kids who grew up with it.”

And another time I mentioned the Motu Proprio to someone else, a Catholic that I particularly respect, and I was met with “I was worried about it until I realized that there are few priests who know how to say that mass.”

It seemed so odd to me that some are so opposed to it.

 

[JRKH]

Hi James,
Sorry all, this off topic, but I just saw James’ Church & his description.
I need & want some info from you, is it ok to PM you? BTW BEAUTIFUL Church!

Sure - If I can be of help, I will.

James

 

[JRKH]

I had a somewhat similar experience. I know someone who studied to be a priest for a few years before leaving and starting a family instead. I decided to ask if seminaries still taught Latin, because I’d heard that some did not. He said he was taught Latin, but not how to say mass in Latin. I then expressed interest in maybe seeing what a traditional Latin mass was like, and was quickly met with a rant about how “It’s just the priest mumbling to the tabernacle and the congregation having zero participation. It’s only 80 years olds who can’t let go that want it along with some of their kids who grew up with it.”

And another time I mentioned the Motu Proprio to someone else, a Catholic that I particularly respect, and I was met with “I was worried about it until I realized that there are few priests who know how to say that mass.”

It seemed so odd to me that some are so opposed to it.

One would suppose that an ex-seminarian really should know better.
Ah well, ther is no accounting for some peoples predjuces.
I don’t know where you are located, but if it is in the US, this link might help you locate an EF mass near you.

Traditiona Latin Masses in the US

They generally have missals at church to help you follow along which I recommend but, if you haven’t been to one before, don’t try to absorb the whole thing all at once. After attending a couple of masses, I even borrowed one of the missals to review the priests actions etc.

You also might find this site useful:

Sancta Missa

Peace
James